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Posted: 9/27/2003 5:47:02 PM EDT
http://64.177.53.248/ubb/Forum56/HTML/000497.html

Been reading through that and I'm starting to see how these may be worth the money they sell for. Besides price, are there any gripes about the Wilson and Baer ARs?
Link Posted: 9/28/2003 11:57:47 AM EDT
All the Les Baer is: $300 Matched LBC upper/lower $350-$475 Match barrel (cut rifled very smooth interior finish) with fitted bolt. $--- FF tube $175 Jewel Match trigger [b]Do the math buy these parts (possibly your FF tube of choice to replace their ugly one) and assemble yourself for a lot less $$$$. The complete rifle is a ripoff the parts are a decent deal and probably the highest quality on the market (except for the Versapod which is crap compared to Harris tilting bi-pods)[/b]
Link Posted: 9/28/2003 1:41:47 PM EDT
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$­$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$­$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$­$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$!
Link Posted: 9/28/2003 2:25:46 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/28/2003 2:27:17 PM EDT by Suburban]
Originally Posted By Green0: The complete rifle is a ripoff the parts are a decent deal and probably the highest quality on the market (except for the Versapod which is crap compared to Harris tilting bi-pods)[/b]
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I have to disaggree on the Versapod. With the legs shortened a bit and an anti-tilt screw as explained on snipersparadise.com, they work very well. Also, on the LBC rifles, I believe they have custom bolts and carriers.
Link Posted: 9/28/2003 2:38:59 PM EDT
Versapod is made of cheap pot metal, you'd figure since they just reverse engineered the excellent Parker Hale design and thus didn't have to expend resources on R&D, they could spend some money on better metal and finish. Seems inconsistant that Les Baer would use high quality and big ticket items on their rifles but opt to use the el cheapo VersaPOS. Like finding "synthetic wood" on a 70K Mercedes (you won't).
Link Posted: 9/28/2003 2:46:30 PM EDT
Im not getting how that very informative thread that has a lot of good info about what to watch for to insure you have a reliable and efficient defense rifle convinced you to become interested in two overpriced target rifles...
Link Posted: 9/28/2003 2:55:29 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Lumpy196: Im not getting how that very informative thread that has a lot of good info about what to watch for to insure you have a reliable and efficient defense rifle convinced you to become interested in two overpriced target rifles...
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Stick w/Les Baers 1911...They are almost worth the price.
Link Posted: 9/28/2003 6:00:18 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/28/2003 6:01:43 PM EDT by Suburban]
Originally Posted By Lumpy196: Im not getting how that very informative thread that has a lot of good info about what to watch for to insure you have a reliable and efficient defense rifle convinced you to become interested in two overpriced target rifles...
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If you read through the thread, you'll find a lot of complaints about cheap junk in virtually every AR. That, and improperly built ARs. The Wilson and Baer rifles are not mentioned. You'd think for the prices the two charge, there'd be no cheap junk in the rifles, and they'd be well put together. I guess that is what I was asking about. Wilson and Baer make several different models each. I don't think many people will call the Baer Thunder Ranch rifle a target rifle. Jeez guys, calm down.
Link Posted: 9/28/2003 6:17:27 PM EDT
I didnt realize I was being uncalm. The reason Les Baer and Wilson werent mentioned in that thread is no serious users have had them purchased for them. Les Baer's ARs are more a dedicated target and varmit rifle, and Wilson's are rediculously over priced. Neither approach anything near mil-spec, specifically chrome lined bores and non-match triggers. Im simply stating that because they werent mentioned in the thread doesnt mean they are any better.
Link Posted: 9/28/2003 6:25:32 PM EDT
I dont know about baer, but wilson combat products are worth the money.I dont remember which mag but Handguns or one of the mags of that type just had a write up on the les baer thunder ranch rifle. i would trust their review over internet gossip.
Link Posted: 9/28/2003 6:36:56 PM EDT
Much of whats in the gun magazines is pure crap.
Link Posted: 9/28/2003 6:44:01 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Lumpy196: Much of whats in the gun magazines is pure crap.
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So Clint Smith/Ayoob/Hackathorn/ are full of it?? and the internet crowd knows what they are talking about??
Link Posted: 9/28/2003 6:58:48 PM EDT
Did I say that? Much doesnt mean all. Has Clint published an article officially endorcing the gun Les Baer is selling. Read a lot of Hackathorn, but havent seen him mention Wilson's ARs yet.
Link Posted: 10/3/2003 10:18:13 AM EDT
Originally Posted By raptor660r:
Originally Posted By Lumpy196: Much of whats in the gun magazines is pure crap.
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So Clint Smith/Ayoob/Hackathorn/ are full of it?? and the internet crowd knows what they are talking about??
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Well, we know Ayoob is full of it, and reading the recent works of Clint Smith regarding black poweder rifles makes me wonder about him [;)]
Link Posted: 10/3/2003 11:12:26 AM EDT
The advantage to the internet is that you get the opinions of a multitude, with mixed knowledge. With a mix of extremes, you can arrive at a center truth,in theory. As for the topic, I've picked up said highpriced rifles, and see nothing special. Just another case of people being consumer brand whores.
Link Posted: 10/3/2003 2:11:21 PM EDT
Bought a beavertail grip safety from Wilson once. What came was an unusable undersized POS, full of casting pinholes. When I called them about sending it back, they tried to tell me that it wasn't their part; my .45 must have an oversized frame cutout. They shut the hell up when I said the Ed Brown piece I had just installed fit perfectly. I have bought nothing from them since. They may put the good pieces in their own complete jobs, but they apparently send the crap out to the piece by piece customers. Les Baer? Why the heck should I pay his prices when my 35 year old Colt SP1, and the Bushie and Rock River build ups work every time, with accuracy that matches the quality of whatever ammo I'm shooting that day? Got better things to do w/my money than waste it on a fancyass brand name[:D]
Link Posted: 10/4/2003 5:53:52 AM EDT
Buddy of mine has a Rolex "President" watch. Solid gold, of course. And cost several thousand dollars. It keeps very inaccurate time, especially compared to my Citizen chronograph in mere titanium (my idea of jewelry). Every time I remind him of this he says, "But, Chuck, it's not important that it keep accurate time, it's only important that it's a Rolex!" Same with all [i]designer[/i] items, Wilson Combat and Les Bauer designer rifles included. -- Chuck
Link Posted: 10/4/2003 6:22:11 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/4/2003 6:23:25 AM EDT by QCMGR]
Originally Posted By Duffy: Versapod is made of cheap pot metal,....
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Since when is aluminum and steel a "pot metal". Model 1 Bipod (150-001 ) Standard prone position bipod with “V” grooved metal feet for better weight distribution in soft ground. Raises barrel from 9” to12” in 6 increments. [b]Aluminum and steel construction[/b].Includes 1 Universal Mounting Adapter. Weight: 1 p. Price: $64.95 Model 1 [b]All-Steel Bipod[/b] (160-001) Same as regular Model 1 except all-steel construction for greater durability on heavy caliber rifles. Weight: 2 p. Price: $119.95 (150-002, 160-002) Click to enlarge Model 2 Bipod (150-002) Prone position bipod with non-skid, non-marring rubber feet. Designed for general purpose prone use as well as shooting form bench top. Weight: 1 p. Price: $64.95 Model 2 [b]All-Steel Bipod[/b] (160-002) Same as regular Model 2 except [b]all-steel construction[/b] for use in conjunction with heavy-recoil rifles up to .50 BMG. Weight: 2 p. Price: $119.95
Link Posted: 10/4/2003 11:04:56 AM EDT
I go along with Green18....$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ Look at Bushmaster, Armalite, RRA, DPMS. They all have great products in MY price range. Also Service in case of a problem needs to be considered. From almost everything I hear it's more negative than positive remarks about Wilson and Baer. Again not my own opinion. I can not say any thing Good or bad about Baer or Wilson. I have had no dealings with them. All I do is look at their catalog and say for what. From what I see of their products and I have shot and handled them. They do all shoot the same for me. The person I know who has a Baer Space Gun AR15 is fixing and tinkering with it more than he shoots it. Again that could just be him and no remark about the Company. I just bought a Kimber 1911 and love it. I also have a Safari Arms 1911 5" gun. I shoot them OK. The bullseye shooters at my club can take both of them and shoot them 20 times better than me. The IPSCA shooters have Baer 1911 and love them. How much you got to spend? How you going to use the weapon? All mine get used and taken care of like they are worth a million dollars in my eyes. If you could check out Gun Test Magazine. I find them to be the most unbiased reviews around. I am sure they have something on the Manufacture's you ask about. Send them a E-Mail they are very good in answering your questions also.
Link Posted: 10/4/2003 9:32:31 PM EDT
Points taken. I guess, like most designer label stuff, you are mostly just paying for the name. Oh, and on Gun Tests magazine... they rated an ASA lightweight as better than the Bushmaster. Based on that alone, I'd say a lot of their reviews are tainted.
Link Posted: 10/4/2003 10:18:10 PM EDT
Chuck that Rolex your friend has is a piece of jewel, not a time piece. None of the Rolexes I've owned keeps accurate time, but all of them serve a purpose. The current one (Sea Dweller) can go 4000ft underwater [:)]
Link Posted: 10/5/2003 6:20:37 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/5/2003 6:33:09 AM EDT by Yojimbo]
IMHO, Wilson and Baer are not bad rifles but...they are post ban rifles that cost as much or more than pre-ban and many times don't have 5.56 chambers or chrome lined chamber and bores. These designer rifles are way overpriced for the features they provide. Basically I see them more as target or vamint rifles that will not be as reliable or be able to shoot the variety of 5.56 ammo like Bushmaster, Armalite, DPMS, Colt's and others... This is from the Les Baer site describing the TR Rifle. LBC Forged And Precision Machined Upper & Lower Receivers • Picatinny Style Flat Top Rail • LBC Ultimate National Match Carrier (Chromed) • LBC Ultimate Bolt (Chromed) • LBC Ultimate Extractor •[b] Les Baer Custom Bench Rest 16” Barrel, 416 R Stainless Steel, Precision Cut Bench Rest Rifling, 1X8 Twist • Barrel Is Precision Fluted In Front Of Gas Block For Better Heat Dissipation • Jewell Two-Stage Trigger Tuned To 41/2 Pound Pull (total pull weight) [/b]• Special Thunder Ranch Free Float Handguard With Locking Ring • Sling Stud Mounted Front Of Free Float Handguard • Nylon Weather Proof Sling And Lockable Front Sling Swivel • Special Detachable Carry Handle • Unique Sighting System (see full description below) • QMI Gold Titanium Firing Pin • (2) 10-Round Magazines • LBC Ultimate AR .223 Rifle Soft Case • Bear Coat™ All-Weather Finish On Upper, Lower, Free Float System, Barrel, Carry Handle, And Most Small Parts (Note: Bear Coat™ is a protective all-weather firearm finish that uses tough TEFLON-S™, a product of Dupont.) Suburban, Looks like a target or benchrest rifle to me, they even describe the parts as such...[:|]
Link Posted: 10/5/2003 9:24:44 PM EDT
Yeah, ya got me. I think I'm going to go to the opposite end of the spectrum... an RRA stripped lower and a model1sales LW CAR kit. Hopefully, next September I will be able to put a "pre-ban" Bushy upper on it.
Link Posted: 10/6/2003 3:55:01 AM EDT
Mmmmm... when I get home this evening I guess that I will have to post pics of what I came up with...
Link Posted: 10/7/2003 9:46:55 AM EDT
Chrome lined barrels are NOT designed for accuracy, but for longer life as a machinegun barrel. Loose, drop-in part interchangibility AR's are right for your basic shooting and recreational shooters. Les Baer Rifles ARE built from the beginning as a precision rifle. Clint Smith has no intention of reviewing the TR rifle, as HE designed and speced the rifle out from concept to production. Like the TR 1911, they ARE Clint's specs for precisely what Clint wants in a rifle and pistol. Wilson was authorized to build up to 100 TR 1911's..and couldn't give them away. Les Baer built the pistol to his demanding standards to Clint's specs and has sold over 1500..big difference ! The Baer AR's cost less than what you can duplicate them in parts and finish to the same specifications. Get over it ! You can buy 2 VW's for the price of a BMW any day..same thing in AR's !
Link Posted: 10/7/2003 10:03:50 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/7/2003 10:08:31 AM EDT by Yojimbo]
Originally Posted By JusDfacts: Chrome lined barrels are NOT designed for accuracy, but for longer life as a machinegun barrel. Loose, drop-in part interchangibility AR's are right for your basic shooting and recreational shooters. Les Baer Rifles ARE built from the beginning as a precision rifle. Clint Smith has no intention of reviewing the TR rifle, as HE designed and speced the rifle out from concept to production. Like the TR 1911, they ARE Clint's specs for precisely what Clint wants in a rifle and pistol. Wilson was authorized to build up to 100 TR 1911's..and couldn't give them away. Les Baer built the pistol to his demanding standards to Clint's specs and has sold over 1500..big difference ! The Baer AR's cost less than what you can duplicate them in parts and finish to the same specifications. Get over it ! You can buy 2 VW's for the price of a BMW any day..same thing in AR's !
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I seriously doubt most people would miss the 1/8" MOA accuracy they loose from having a chrome lined barrel. I certainly don't think of the TR Rifle as any BMW, there are many better rifles for that kind of money. If I really want a precision rifle I'll go with with one of Wes's Crane SPR's clones before wasting money on the the TR Rifle. Just my 2 cents...[;)]
Link Posted: 10/9/2003 1:15:07 PM EDT
What about Knight's SR-15?? I don't know the answer myself, but they appear to be good rifles.
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