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Posted: 9/25/2003 1:34:05 PM EDT
Ok, I know this one has probably been asked before, but not in the last 30 days b/c I used the search function.

I have a Bushie 20" Flattop with detach carry handle. I can shoot about 2.5" groups with the iron sights. It is more enjoyable for me to sit at the bench and trying to get that super small group. I have only shot at 100 yards because I want to actually hit what I am aiming at before that.

I really want a rifle that I can put through the paces and learn to shoot the gun well with iron sights. The BM is ok, but I have recently been daydreaming about the Rock River Arms National Match flatop (for versatility). I like the idea of the Wildey Chamber for its abilit to fire .223 and 5.56, the national match trigger, that sweet looking stainless barrel, and the NM sights.

My question: Is this what I want if I am on a budget (~$850), want to move out to 200 or 300 yds and keep options open for competition when I have more time? or is there a better choice out there?

DPMSs look nice, but a friend has one and it is a jamamatic. He may be shooting 5.56 in his .223 chambered 1" super heavy barrel varminter though. I am not sure how his rifle is chambered.

I can't go and lay out the $1200 for a White Oak Precision (?) so don't even tempt me.
Thanks in advance.
Link Posted: 9/25/2003 1:59:53 PM EDT
Most of the companies build a national match rifle. Most will build a flat top version of it as well. I'm not convinced there's a huge difference in them. I run Rock River and it out shoots me by a long ways. Friends run DPMS, Bushmaster, Colt, you name it. The Bushmaster you have should do better than 2.5 inches. I had a stock A2 Oly that would crowd an inch if I did my part. You may want to experiment a bit more with the BM before parting with the serious green. Try different ammo, maybe a spring kit for the trigger (about $15, made a world of difference in my Oly).
Link Posted: 9/25/2003 2:29:05 PM EDT
I guess I need more practice - I have a tendency to cant the rifle to the right a little. Do they make a level for the base of the front sight tower? Some items on the gun are not satisfactory though. The rear sight rotates left to right about an eighth of an inch or more when twisted because it has too much clearance between it and the carry handle. Everything else is stock, trigger included. Maybe I will have MB look at it at Gunstock.
Link Posted: 9/25/2003 3:12:14 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/25/2003 3:14:22 PM EDT by BUSTER51]
Hold on ,if you can only shoot 2.5 inch groups at 100 yards with a bushy 20 inch something is very wrong .what ammo are you useing ? I'm a 52 year old man and have no trouble getting 1 to 1 and a half inch groups at 100 yards with xm193 in my 20 inch bushy with the sights it came with. what sights are you useing ? try letting someone else shoot it and see if they have the same problem ,try to clean it it may be copper fouled ,try some other ammo .that rifle should do what you want .an RRA nm triger should help if yours is stiff and nasty. if you want a new rifle thats cool but what you have should work and get you 1 inch groups ,good luck let me know if you find the problem .
Link Posted: 9/25/2003 3:39:59 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/25/2003 3:40:37 PM EDT by rebel_rifle]
Originally Posted By Spacematic: My question: Is this what I want if I am on a budget (~$850), want to move out to 200 or 300 yds and keep options open for competition when I have more time? or is there a better choice out there? I can't go and lay out the $1200 for a White Oak Precision (?) so don't even tempt me. Thanks in advance.
View Quote
If highpower competition is the competition you speak of, then get the regular A2 upper. Contrary to the incorrect information on the Rock River web site, flat tops are not service rifle legal in either NRA or CMP Leg matches. For the money the Rock River DCM rifle is the best bang for the buck. They can be had for around $850 or less and have a great trigger and very good float tube. The trigger alone is worth the difference between it and the Bushmaster.
Link Posted: 9/25/2003 5:08:19 PM EDT
You are really trying to do something that is pretty hard. If you bought an RRA DCM upper and RRA lower complete with match grade trigger from Pete In NH seperately they cost like $600 and $265 So that would do the job but I don't know if the flattop is availible on the DCM rifle (maybe it is but even then you will pay probably $150 for NM iron sights included in the handle.) If you want to shoot from a benchrest and like seeing the hole stay the same size I would reccomend: A Ar with: Krieger double cryoed SS match barrel DCM contour or heavier fluted or non-fluted with matched bolt. A FF tube of some type (FF RAS or FF tube whatever) A $300 matched flattop upper/lower combo from Les Baer A Jewel match trigger. A decent scope ( for varminting this would be a Leupold M3 civy model or a SA .223 scope) For competitive bench work and ultra serious varminting that could be a lot more specialized like a Nightforce or other exotic optic. These are the parts that determine accuracy. The rest of it is asthetic. [b]After you spend all that money[/b] the difference will be that the RRA will shoot .4MOA and the bench gun will shoot under .25MOA (which means a difference in extreme spread of .0286 to .1786) that is a big difference in competition at longer distance but not really a big difference in the field. [b]If you can get a RRA DCM with a flattop I would reccomend that with a suitable scope and a shooting sling (Turner saddlery). You might find that it is actually fun to lock in with the sling and shoot 1inch groups at 100yds from the prone with the iron and then put the scope on and shoot crows at 300+ yds. I thought shooting prone with mine was a blast.[/b]
Link Posted: 9/25/2003 7:53:38 PM EDT
Thanks for the comments. The carry handle/sights on the gun are just a regular A2 sights. However, I bought it new from an internet dealer who shipped it to my ffl in '98. Looking at the seriously crummy fit of the sight to the handle, he may have shaved some cost and bought a non-Bushie part and sold it with the new Bushie rifle with flat top. I may not be doing my part and probably need to take a class rather than trying to learn everything from the internet. Buster51 - I am shooting American Eagle M193 wanna be, Win Q3131A, and Wolf 69 gr. I will be picking up a RRA DCM upper. Should I try to get a matched RRA lower or just swap out the trigger in the Bushie with the RRA?
Link Posted: 9/25/2003 8:12:49 PM EDT
Some notes: - You can't expect top quality accuracy with low quality ammo. Find yourself some match grade Black Hills ammo or get a press and start loading your own. - Before you spend the money on whole new upper, buy a better trigger for your Bushy. - While they are decent, there's no reason to buy a complete upper from a manufacturer. You'll get better results if you contact a place like Fulton Armory and have them build a really nice upper with a free-floated Kreiger barrel.
Link Posted: 9/26/2003 8:26:18 AM EDT
You should talk to Pete at LEGAL TRANSFERS he has the lower you want and can get you the upper as well at a great price. He is one of the most honest guys there is ,and he knows the AR he can save you time trouble and money if he builds you one it will be a tack driver and wont cost you an arm and a leg .I have never heard of a dissatisfied customer of his .I have one of his custom uppers and a lower i got from him 4 mounths ago and it's sweet .Talk to him before you spend your hard earned money .
Link Posted: 10/6/2003 2:50:50 PM EDT
Check out www.Insightshootingsystemsinc.com
Link Posted: 10/6/2003 4:38:22 PM EDT
spring tension holds the rear sight on an ar against the back of the carry handle at a small angle. this is normal and does not adversley affect accuracy. If it bothers you, and it does some people, then you can have it pinned. The sights on a detach carry handle do not have as much elevation adjustment as an A2.
Link Posted: 10/7/2003 3:36:22 AM EDT
What is Legal Transfers website? Thanks - Brad
Link Posted: 10/7/2003 9:38:52 AM EDT
Check the industry section for LEGAL TRANSFERS,you cant go wrong with Pete's stuff he realy is the AR WIZ
Link Posted: 10/10/2003 5:52:42 PM EDT
I have an oly standard 20" A2 upper and it has that same rotational slop in the rear sight that you are talking about. I posted a question here about two months ago asking how to fix it. I was told that was normal. There is a spring in there that keeps it tight (crooked however), but it won't flop around on you. It bothers me too.
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