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Posted: 9/24/2003 12:18:52 AM EDT
I have just come into possesion of what I believe could be a very valuble find. I just need some info from you folks who are in the "know". I have a Colt 16" HBAR flat top upper that is marked M4 behind the handguards. This is a complete HBAR under the handguards and NO 203 barrel stepdown. Now, according to this old 2002 gun blue book it says that colt only distributed 135 of these on the american market. I have looked for others like it to try and get a value on it but all the colt M4's I see are not A3's or they have the 203 stepdown. My dilema is that I have this upper at a gunshop in line to be "legalized" by cutting off the bayo lug and having a brake installed instead of the flash hider. If this upper is what I think it is, I need to rescue it before it gets cut on so a quick response would be beneficial.
Any ideas what this thing would be worth ? The whole rifle blue booked for something like $4500.00 in 2002. Any ideas on what lower it would have been sitting on ?
Thanks for any help........
-Reptilex72
Link Posted: 9/24/2003 1:02:34 AM EDT
Ok, we are dealing with two different parts here. 1. The upper: You say, flat top with m4 above gas port. 2. Barrel: You say, 16inch HBAR. What does the barrel have marked on it, toward the muzzle? Remeber a M4 means 14.5 inch barrel with m203 stepdown. What I mean is, barrel orginal to upper?
Link Posted: 9/24/2003 1:08:51 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/24/2003 1:16:00 AM EDT by Reptilex72]
Thanks for the quick response. The upper, towards the muzzle says "5.56 NATO HBAR 1/9"-- or something similiar to that, its been at the gunshop for a couple weeks. Now the book did say that colt made a limited number of these uppers with this barrel. I of course do not know hardly anything about AR's even less about Colt's. If this is really 2 different parts then it will not hurt me too bad to get it cut on, plus the bayonet lug is so far back, only about an inch of blade comes past the suppressor.
Link Posted: 9/24/2003 5:06:27 AM EDT
Reptilex, i am a Colt AR-15 collector, what i think you have there is a bastardized "A3 Tactical", as there is no "M4" stamped in the upper on a true 6721 upper the only Colt AR-15 that i know of that demands a price above $4,000 is the "Colt AR-15 A3 Tactical".., YES...!!! there were 134 of them made & i have one, if the lower receiver does not have that specific designation it is NOT an original "Tactical" also the "Tactical" has a S/N starting with BD000XXX & the barrel is 16", has no "step" & is a heavy weight if that "Tactical" has a S/N above BD000134 it is considered a LEO/Military only weapon, cutting off the bayo lug & changing the FH will render the gun "JUNK", & will NOT make it legal under any circumstances, it is the S/N that determines whether a rifle is or is not pre-ban... can you post a photo ? if not, give a full & complete description of this gun..., i mean every single stamped lettering, both upper & lower..., my best guess is that someone is trying to sell you somthing priced about $3,000 too high !!!!!!!!!!!
Link Posted: 9/24/2003 5:16:00 AM EDT
Originally Posted By AR-15NUTT: as there is no "M4" stamped in the upper on a true 6721 upper
View Quote
Err... Both of my 6721's, serials < BD000100 and received by me NIB, have the M4 marking above the cloverleaf.
Link Posted: 9/24/2003 7:51:16 AM EDT
I cannot post a pic because the upper is at the shop right now. I will describe it best as I can from memory. It is a flat top receiver. It does have "M4" stamped on it behind the handguards. There is no serial number anywhere on it. It has C AF stamped on the side and I believe it has an "F" stamped on the front sight post. It has the "5.56 NATO HBAR 1/9" stamped on top of the barrel. I cannot swear that the barrel is chrome lined. It doesnt have LEO or military use on it anywhere and I do not have the lower. I was wondering what lower I would need to make it original even though the price of preban colt lowers is astronomical. Thanks again.... -Reptilex
Link Posted: 9/24/2003 10:26:03 AM EDT
Reptilex72 The gun will have C on the [b]barrel[/b] if it is a colt. Look at this pic [url]http://www.biggerhammer.net/ar15/barrelsbolts/[/url], to see what I mean. Lots of people get a M4 flat top upper, and put a 16inch barrel on it to make it a legal length upper assembly. There are no serial numbers on the upper receiver, or barrel. Only the lower receiver has the serial number. Just call the shop and ask what the barrel has stamped on it, and let us know.
Link Posted: 9/24/2003 2:29:13 PM EDT
XM777, you are correct !! there is an "M4" stamped in my upper, i was thinking of my Bushy Flattop....!!! SOOOOOO...! are you the fellow who recently bought BD000100 or was selling it ?? it seems i saw that critter for sale at $7,995.00 on GunsAmerica.com , was the assy. bag open when you got it ?, i turned down 5 of those A3 Tacticals till i found this one that i have.......
Link Posted: 9/24/2003 6:28:45 PM EDT
Nope, That wasn't me. I bought mine in '95 and have no intention of selling.
Link Posted: 9/24/2003 7:48:25 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/24/2003 7:51:09 PM EDT by scroungersix]
Sorry I am confused here...do you have the whole gun including the lower or just an upper? I could be wrong here but there would be nothing on the upper to indicate that it came off one of the Rare BD guns except the matching lower. If all you have is an upper in 6721 configuration then all you have is a Colt heavy barrel upper??? Nothing special. A 6721 upper could easily be duplicated from parts, with out the lower there is no collector value in my opinion.
Link Posted: 9/24/2003 8:35:29 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/24/2003 8:37:00 PM EDT by XM777]
Originally Posted By scroungersix: Sorry I am confused here...do you have the whole gun including the lower or just an upper?
View Quote
He has the upper only. It is most likely one of uppers sold by Colt as a "conversion kit" in the late 90's. In exc. condition with the b/c/ch included, the value is about $600.
Link Posted: 9/24/2003 9:13:56 PM EDT
First off, thanks for all the feedback, it has been helpfull. The barrel does have " C MP 5.56 NATO HBAR" stamped on it. Also I found out that cutting the bayo lug off will not harm the value if I just get a new front sight assembly from Colt and put the suppressor back on it. I believe there is probably no way to tell if this came off one of those weapons. I just wanted to find out before I mutilated a rare find. Thanks again, everyone.
Link Posted: 9/25/2003 5:41:54 AM EDT
why do you want to cut off the bayo lug & change the FH ??????
Link Posted: 9/25/2003 7:43:33 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/25/2003 7:50:27 AM EDT by ddc]
I agree with the guess that you most likely have the upper from an R6721DC conversion kit. However the prices I've seen for those are around $800/$900 if bolt and carrier are included. (NIB prices) If it were mine I don't think I'd be doing any cutting on it. I'd at least hang on to it until next Sept. and see what happens with the AWB.
Link Posted: 9/25/2003 8:41:05 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/25/2003 8:48:21 AM EDT by Reptilex72]
I just checked out the Colt R6721DC and it looks excactly like what I have. How can I tell if I have the conversion upper or one of the real deals ? There are no numbers that I can recall. Can anyone tell me if there are numbers and where they would be located ? If this conversion kit has the M4 stamped on the reciever it most likely is what I have. I am a pessimist by nature and while I know the awb will sunset I figure they will have a newer bill that will take effect as soon as it does. nO sense in getting my hopes up. I am going to cut off the flug and change the FH so I can take it to the range and fire it with no worries. I don't have the money to buy another upper and I definately don't have the money to buy a preban lower (those prices are insanely overpriced). Thanks again !
Link Posted: 9/25/2003 11:09:42 AM EDT
I am not familiar with the 6721 as a complete rifle and don't know if there is any definitive way to tell whether the upper was from a 6721 conversion kit or from a factory assembled 6721 complete rifle. I suspect there isn't but perhaps someone more knowledgable can provide one. I can't tell you from memory what the markings and inscriptions are on an R6721DC conversion kit upper are but I'll try to remember to check and post after I get home this evening; probably around 7:00pm PDT.
Link Posted: 9/25/2003 2:12:39 PM EDT
"I am going to cut off the lug and change the FH so I can take it to the range and fire it with no worries." _____________________________________________ Ok, has anyone that reads, frequents this site, ever been out shooting, and had [b]ANYONE[/b]come up to them and ask if... their gun was a pre/post lower with pre/post upper. I am [b]NOT![/b] inciting any law breaking here, just asking a [b]YES/NO[/b] question. I'll start. NO.
Link Posted: 9/25/2003 7:27:45 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/25/2003 7:31:34 PM EDT by ddc]
Reptilex72, The markings on my R6721DC conversion kit upper are as follows: 1. Barrel marked on top: C MP 5.56 NATO 1/9 HBAR 2. On the right side of the receiver above the forward assist it has a "C" followed by a symbol which looks like it is formed by taking an "A" and an "F" and squeezing (highly technical term) them together; it sort of looks like "C AF". 3. On the left side of the receiver towards the front about 1/2" below the rail it has a symbol which looks like a "C" rotated 90 degrees to the left and surrounded by a square or a rectangle. 4. On the front of the receiver above the gas tube it is indeed marked "M4". 5. On the front site base it has an "F" on the left side and on the right side it has an "A" followed by a symbol which appears to be a circle containing the letters "RI" (or maybe its "R1") and then followed by a "1". 6. I didn't notice anything else but its been a long day.... Hope that helps.
Link Posted: 9/25/2003 9:03:44 PM EDT
Thank you DDC, my markings are identical.
Link Posted: 9/26/2003 4:58:16 AM EDT
there is NO difference in a kit 6721 & a 6721 on a complete factory made rifle...... as for destroying a $900 upper by hacking on it....., i am with Spooge on this one..., leave it alone !!!!! or sell/trade it to me & i'll get you a "LEGAL" upper...., very cheap !!!!!
Link Posted: 9/26/2003 5:49:24 AM EDT
Reptilex72, Another way to play this... Is your upper NIB or LNIB? If so that 6721 upper is a reasonably valuable commodity in its own right. Given the price an un-hacked on 6721 upper might command you may be able to sell it for around the price of a brand new post-ban. I haven't priced any lately but I'd bet you could get a pretty decent brand new post-ban Bushmaster for around $800 or thereabouts.... I don't think you'd have too much trouble selling it on the EE here.... just some early morning rambling....
Link Posted: 9/26/2003 9:14:01 AM EDT
This is a lot of food for thought. I would have considered selling this upper and gotten one of those with the 203 stepdown except for the fact that this one I have is kinda rough. Some of the finish is completely worn away in places and the FH is scraped from where it looks like someone tried to twist it on too tight. So if nothing else, I am just going to have it refinished. I had no idea that these AR's were so complicated AND expensive. Heck, I have 500 bucks in just this upper and the colt bolt/carrier. Not to mention the flip up sight that was a hundred bucks. I hope I don't get addicted to these things. So... If I have this upper "legalized" it will be worthless ? Even with a new Colt front sight assembly and a new A2 suppressor ? The finish is a given,, that would have to be redone anyhow as it looks like crap now.
Link Posted: 9/26/2003 1:17:59 PM EDT
Well I think "worthless" is way to strong a statement. It's just that if you take a firearm or in this case a significant subassemby thereof and modify it you usually find that you have taken away some of its inherent value even if there is no functional degradation. That may or may not be important to you. It doesn't have to be; it's a personal thing; maybe what is more important to you is that it is put into a configuration that makes it useable; in this case making it legal to use with a post-ban lower. Everybody has their own priorities and needs. We are probably over analyzing this and making a bigger deal out of it than it deserves.
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