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Posted: 9/11/2003 1:27:46 PM EDT
How does the KAC 2 stage trigger manage to have a single stage trigger when the selector flips to the full auto position but a 2 stage semi auto trigger? Can enyone explain the way this trigger works?
Link Posted: 9/11/2003 1:43:17 PM EDT
Just get the damn Accuracy Speaks trigger. You know you want one. Admit it. Buy one now. [;D]
Link Posted: 9/11/2003 1:57:17 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/11/2003 2:10:16 PM EDT by KevinB]
Very well... :) The trigger works via to different disconnects. See pic No finer trigger exist (IMHO) [img]http://photos.ar15.com/ImageGallery/Attachments/DownloadAttach.asp?iImageUnq=17178[/img] [img]http://photos.ar15.com/ImageGallery/Attachments/DownloadAttach.asp?iImageUnq=17179[/img]
Link Posted: 9/11/2003 2:41:35 PM EDT
Well how phisically does the trigger "know" to go to single stage? How does the selector make it use a different disconnector and how does this eliminate the first stage? I am not able to picture whats happeneing from the pics.
Link Posted: 9/11/2003 2:47:12 PM EDT
Originally Posted By DevL: How does the KAC 2 stage trigger manage to have a single stage trigger when the selector flips to the full auto position but a 2 stage semi auto trigger? Can enyone explain the way this trigger works?
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When the selector is rotated to FULL, the rear hook of the KAC 2-Stage Trigger is pivoted back so it no longer interplays with the its hammer hook, as it does in the SEMI position, where it gives you a "stop" at the end of the first stage. So in FULL, your pressure on the trigger is all applied to the sear coming out of ingagement with its hammer hook. What the hey, it just works that way...
Link Posted: 9/11/2003 2:57:06 PM EDT
So is it the part of the selector that holds back the disconnector in a regular full auto the part that pulls back the rear hook of the KAC 2-Stage Trigger? And the disconnector is the part that pushes the trigger forward to make the 2 stages?
Link Posted: 9/11/2003 3:02:09 PM EDT
See Dave is much better at this sort of thing. Tell you what, I will take pics of the gun in semi and auto and you can see the different postions it is in. I just shoot it. It works most excellently.
Link Posted: 9/11/2003 6:35:27 PM EDT
Coldblue I bought a Knights SR-15 M4 and would like to know who makes the barrles. Also the 2 stage trigger as a fair bit of creep is that normal?
Link Posted: 9/11/2003 7:18:01 PM EDT
There should be NO creep in a KAC trigger. Are you sure your not confusing the first stage with creep?
Link Posted: 9/12/2003 5:07:17 AM EDT
Originally Posted By jercdevil: Coldblue I bought a Knights SR-15 M4 and would like to know who makes the barrles. Also the 2 stage trigger as a fair bit of creep is that normal?
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Right now, SR-15 barrels are rifled by various quality barrel makers. Soon, we will be rifling our own. The 2nd stage should have no creep. Is this a used rifle that someone else may have "re-adjusted?" Does it have a 1/16" set screw at the front of both hooks? Does it look like their lockite has been broken? If the screws can be turned easily, they need to be locktite-ed. You can send the lower back for re-adjustment/re-locktite, or, call me with wrench--in-hand and I will talk you through it.
Link Posted: 9/12/2003 7:25:53 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/12/2003 8:30:12 AM EDT by Quarterbore]
Dave, I have been playing with a concept for quite some time and it seems to me your trigger would be easily adaptable ... How hard would it be to convert this trigger so that in an Semi-Automatic Rifle it will give the weapon a three position fire kit with the following.... 1. SAFE 2. Two-Stage trigger 3. Single Stage trigger If so, why can't the selector positions be switched to give SAFE/SINGLE-STAGE/TWO-STAGE? I am a huge fan of a 2-stage trigger, but let's be honest there are situations where a lighter short-pull single stage trigger is better. Look at the guys shooting 3-gun or other rapid fire matches... Also, some LEO types are limited to semi-auto and I think they would benifit from such a trigger system. As long as the hammer was to loose the auto-sear hook, and the disconnect was changed to catch the hammer, I think this would be a FANTASTIC addition to the Stoner platform... What ya say Dave... can you forward this little idea to your R&D Team? I have tried to come up with a way to make it work myself but I lack the tools and don't want to cut up my own 2-stage triggers to see if I can make it work... I would rather you guys just build one and let me buy it from you!
Link Posted: 9/12/2003 8:12:09 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/12/2003 8:19:20 AM EDT by DevL]
Quaterbore's post was exactly what I was trying to figure out if I could do. I on the other hand would be perfectly willing to chop up a KAC full auto trigger to make that mod work but its sounding like the selector holding back the disconnector is what activates the single stage and that means you cant make the current trigger work as a semi auto single stage trigger. Then again I could be wrong and there could be one half the selector that pulls back the disconnector and one half that makes the trigger hang to the edge of the sear instead of having to be pushed off and altering the safety or trigger could make it work. I think we need coldblue to clarify.
Link Posted: 9/14/2003 10:50:13 AM EDT
Coldblue thanks for the reply. I bought the rifle in Aug from Impact guns. This is a first class weapon. Serial number is KM117## can you tell me what the production date is. [img]http://www.imagestation.com/mypictures/inbox/view.html?id=4212873725&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.imagestation.com%2Fpicture%2Fsraid79%2Fp0a1d727bea5fd92d01­38ffeec78ec14a%2Ffb1b59fd.jpg&caption=knights%20sr-15%20m40004jpg[/img]
Link Posted: 9/14/2003 2:31:29 PM EDT
DevL I took some photos of it in the gun but they were worthless. I think you should be able to modify a selector and the auto disconnect to have what you propose work. You might be best off buying both a KAC semi trigger and an auto and cobling it together that way...
Link Posted: 9/14/2003 2:53:32 PM EDT
If that is the case, I already have semi-KAC 2-stage triggers... I just need to get a M-16 trigger to try to make it work.... Interesting...
Link Posted: 9/14/2003 3:14:47 PM EDT
I meant KAC Auto trigger package I dont think a normal M16 fire control parts will work for anything - other than the selector.
Link Posted: 9/15/2003 5:10:08 AM EDT
Yea, I knew hwat you meant... So Dave, would this work? I just don't want to buy another $290 trigger group that I really shouldn't buy if it won't work...
Link Posted: 9/18/2003 8:42:48 PM EDT
I keep jacking with my semi auto 2 stage trigger and I could not figure out how that full auto trigger works. Kevin said it works via 2 different disconnects but for the life of me I cannot see 2 different disconnects on his pics of his trigger. I also see it is just like my trigger except it has the extended arm for the for the disconnector, hook on the hammer etc. I am unconcerned with the interactions between the auto sear hammer etc. all I want to know is if I can allow the disconnector to still function and get the single stage to work. I have a feeling somehow the selector lifts the entire trigger up from below while a central part of the selector blocks the disconnector from egaging. If this is the case I can just add a full auto selector to my semi KAC trigger and it should become a selectable semi 1/2 stage trigger. So to test this theory someone just needs to pop a full auto selector in their semi auto KAC trigger and see if they can get the triiger to fire in a single action. This would bee too easy. There has to be two disconnectors. Then again if there were it would seem that that would provide a way for this to be done too. Anyway, enough babbling. 1. Could someone confirm there are or are not 2 disconnectors in the full auto KAC trigger? 2.Could someone put a full auto selector in the KAC semi auto trigger and see if they can get it to work.
Link Posted: 9/18/2003 8:55:36 PM EDT
Also Kevin could you see if your trigger jumps back when you flip the selector to full?
Link Posted: 9/18/2003 9:42:45 PM EDT
Originally Posted By DevL: 1. Could someone confirm there are or are not 2 disconnectors in the full auto KAC trigger? 2.Could someone put a full auto selector in the KAC semi auto trigger and see if they can get it to work.
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There are two disconnectors in the FA and SA KAC trigger. Well, one should more appropriately call a "sear" but the two disconnector nomenclature is what KAC uses. A full auto selector used with a SA KAC trigger will function no differently than a SA selector. The SA disconnector is not long enough to be engaged by the FA cam on the FA selector. The difference between the two triggers in the "extension" that you see on the right side disconnector. When the FA selector is moved to the FA position, it cams the right side disconnector out of the way of the rear hammer hook. In reality, the length of the trigger pull is the same whether in FA or SA mode. The difference is that when if FA mode, you are pulling harder to overcome the disconnector spring pressure (right side which is being held down by FA cam on the FA selector)which gives the illusion of a heavy single stage pull. When in SA, there is no spring pressure for the first part of the pull (free play) which gives the feeling of two stages. Make sense?
Link Posted: 9/18/2003 10:03:22 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/18/2003 10:56:59 PM EDT by DevL]
So the KAC trigger has a long and creepy single stage then? Its not tight and crisp like a normal single stage? Man if what you say is true then I did get my triger to function that way when the set screw for the disconnector is messed up and it never reaches the hammer so you can feel the second stage. That trigger pull SUCKED big time. Is that what the KAC 2 stage trigger is like? If so that has to be the worst full auto trigger pull in existence. The creep must be immesurable. If this is the case then I think I know exactly how to convert the full auto trigger to what I want. First there has to be a way to advance the trigger to the point of break of the second stage of the trigger pull. You will have to lift the sides of the trigger with a set screw that is drilled into the selector at a precise angle. This set screw will allow you to advance the trigger to just prior to break by touching and lifting the trigger up (internally) I am unsure at this point if a notch needs to be cut in that sid of the trigger "wall" to accept the edge of the screw or what. I just know it has to be screwed in from the top when the selector is on safe and must clear through that cut out behind the selector when installed and set up. Next the lever on the selector that holds down the disconnector must be set up so that the disconnector is barely allowed to engage and release by filing that lever down a bit at a time and experimenting till its just right. Once the disconnector starts engaging enough material will have been removed and the whole thing should work flawlessly. Am I missing something here? I am wondering if the trigger, when advanced to the end of the fisrt stage will allow a cut down selector to engage the disconnector and hold it back far enough sothat it will release the hammer. Essentially this will just reset the fire control parts to where most factory single stage parts are. I am just wonderng if there is enough material in the selector area that holds the disconnector to do this or if at a certain point too much material will be removed and the disconnector will just fly forward with nomaterial left to hold it. Also by advancing the trigger AND pulling back the disconnector in one motion this would mad flipping the selector VERY difficult. Is anyone following this? Perhaps this is just too damned hard...
Link Posted: 9/18/2003 11:49:35 PM EDT
My brain hurts. I think I am gonna sell my KAC trigger and get an Accuracy Speaks single stage.
Link Posted: 9/20/2003 6:36:45 AM EDT
Originally Posted By DevL: My brain hurts. I think I am gonna sell my KAC trigger and get an Accuracy Speaks single stage.
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If you are this unhappy with our trigger, then it is simply way far out of adjustment. Send in your lower and I'll re-adjust it and locktite the screws. I have shot the world's best single stage AR triggers along side our 2-stage (properly adjusted) and I shoot almost 1 m.o.a. better with the 2-stage. When "double tapping", the 2-stage is absolutely the best for me, in fact I can't go back to a single stage design for these type events. I have seen this happen with many real Operators as well after I installed our 2-stage and let them shoot just 2 or 3 magazines, then put their original trigger back in. On the rotation to a third position to attain a single action pull I will ask the designer (Mr. Doug Olson) what he thinks. However, their will likely be a BATF issue when you grind off the boss that stops the selector's rotation at SEMI that I would not want to touch with a 10-foot pole.
Link Posted: 9/20/2003 9:00:43 AM EDT
Originally Posted By DevL: So the KAC trigger has a long and creepy single stage then? Its not tight and crisp like a normal single stage? Is anyone following this? Perhaps this is just too damned hard...
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I think you are failing to take into account that the FA single stage trigger pull is designed just for that, full auto fire, not what you are proposing. A FA trigger is only pulled once per burst and even then it is not as "deliberate" of a pull as would be the case with a SA. I agree with Kevin that the KAC FA trigger in the best FA trigger out there, in Single (FA) or Two Stage modes. Have you ever fired a MP5? 10+ lbs and plenty of creep in FA mode. Do you even notice it? I know I don't. Or a M16A2, again 10+ lbs. Or a most extreme case, a MAC? Well, maybe the MAC example is a little too extreme :) but hopefully you get the idea. If what you are desiring is a crisp single stage pull, you probably will be happier with the AS Trigger.
Link Posted: 9/20/2003 9:45:47 AM EDT
I love the KAC for deliberate shooting. My only issue is the distance for reset and the fact if I try to get a double tap too fast I have not let the trigger out far enough and sometimes I pull the second time too quickly and nothing happens. This is when performing "hammers" not controlled pairs. Perhaps I just need to practice with this trigger more.
Link Posted: 9/20/2003 5:21:24 PM EDT
Originally Posted By coldblue: On the rotation to a third position to attain a single action pull I will ask the designer (Mr. Doug Olson) what he thinks. However, their will likely be a BATF issue when you grind off the boss that stops the selector's rotation at SEMI that I would not want to touch with a 10-foot pole.
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If you tell me it will work... I will work to help wite a letter to the BATFE Tech Office asking them to verify the legality of a SEMI-AUTO trigger that uses a selector position to adjust the trigger action to two different modes of action BOTH of which are semi-auto.... If you think you can make it work, I think I can write an argument on why this trigger group is no more of an M-16 trigger then the standard match trigger... That really is the easier then the technical issues as I have been playing with my own 2-stage triggers for quite some time to figure out a way to do this... Best Regards, Ken (AKA Quarterbore)
Link Posted: 9/20/2003 9:54:07 PM EDT
[banana] GO TEAM, GO! [banana] You are the only ones who want this to happen...
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