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Posted: 9/9/2003 9:07:24 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/9/2003 10:07:15 PM EDT by rep1969]
OK I know this has been asked before. I tried a search and didn't find anything.

Which one of these flash hider/suppressors is better and why?

Thanks
Link Posted: 9/9/2003 9:26:55 PM EDT
Both perform the same with Vortex with a slight edge. I have been using the Vortex G6, it looks awesome and it functions even better. the flash is eliminated by just a couple of sparks in the dark of night. I would suggest the new Vortex G6.
Link Posted: 9/9/2003 9:41:29 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/9/2003 9:47:04 PM EDT by Green0]
Vortex always wins. It's a superior product. I had one. Sold the upper. all I have left is the G6 BFA. Why???? THe Vortex actually has tuning forks that extinguish burning powder. They also have a slight accurizing effect (like 15%) and some noticeable recoil reduction (I think so anyway). The phantom still has a tiny blue flash inside the FH by virtue of its design. both work fine though. The issue is really cosmetic more than anything. If you like the way the phantom looks track record is you'll end up with a phantom. (seems to be the trend as most users don't fire at night anyway.) [b]As far as I'm concerned the Vortex is better[/b]
Link Posted: 9/10/2003 12:55:36 AM EDT
Vortex is superior, and that is a fact.
Link Posted: 9/10/2003 2:56:52 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/10/2003 3:08:01 AM EDT by Tweak]
rep1969, The only concern with the Vortices is there was an older (6 yrs or so) batch that was improperly milled. A little history. The original Vortex had straight tines. The next version (the Sommers Vortex, the owners wife) had what I call spiral tines. You could see that the part itself was rotated as the end mill was brought into the part tor cut the tines. This spiral cut counteracted the old versions habit of unscrewing while firing. Here's what I mean by spiral tines. [img]http://www.floridagunworks.com/Merchant2/graphics/00000001/265.jpg[/img] Soon after the introduction of the second version sales of the Vortex went through the roof. Smith looked for faster ways to make the Vortex. At OAI we received a large (>300) bag of Vortices that looked a little different. The tines were angled but not spiral. Smith had quit rotating the part (requiring an index head or a machining center) and simply brought the end mill into the part at an angle to cut the tines. This is much faster to do and can be done on a simple mill lacking an index head. They looked different but we (the assemblers) didn't think much about it as our stock changed slightly all the time. During test firing of some 6" barrelled FA guns (K23 Stubby) equipped with the angled Vortices we noticed that the tines would mushroom during the first burst. Subsequent bursts opened the tines until they failed and broke off. This was bad news as we has already shipped a lot of guns with these new flash suppressors and sent out even more to customers as single units. Quite a few went out to customers that had bought OA-93 pistols. The OAs had been shipped w/o flash suppressors bc we were out of stock. Meaning the pistols had never been test fired with the Vortices installed. The K23 order had been the first opportunity we had to fire short barrelled guns with the new design Vortex. So, we decided to investigate why they were failing and a call went to SE. A quick check of the hardness showed no diff from older versions we had on hand. A visual inspection showed something much worse tho. The change in the production process (spiral to angle) had resulted in tines that were undercut at their base. With the spiral design the tine opposite the slot being cut is rotated AWAY from the end mill while the slot was being cut. With the angled design the end mill ran across the length of the tine opposite the slot being cut. Normal tines are rectangular in profile, and triangular when viewed from the front. The tines of the angle cut Vortices were triangular in profile and semi trapezoidal (the exterior is curved) when when viewed from the front. The thin end of the triangualr profile was at the muzzle. The tines became a hinge in effect. About this time Smith called back and told us that their heat treat guys had been having problems and that was why the parts were failing. I informed them that testing of the parts had shown no diff in heat treat but that the parts were made incorrectly. He asked what guns we were using them on. I told him we were having immediate problems with the 6" .223s. He told me, "You can't use them on those things! That's like a bomb going off at the muzzle." [;D] I informed him we had been using them for years without a problem. They offered to take the parts back and replace them when they could. Management decided that since the Vortices weren't failing on the rifles (not right away at least) and bc it would take so long for SE to replace the order that we would keep the order and continue to use them for rifles, carbines, and parts orders. As such, that 300 units, plus how many ever else SE made like that, are floating around. A quick peek through the slots at the tines of a Vortex will tell you if it's one of the bad ones. The tines should be the same thickness (bore side to exterior side) for their full length. If you think them mushrooming during firing is bad, wait until your rifle falls against something solid and the tine folds across the boreline. When this first became an issue there were quite a few pissed off people with broken Vortices permanently attached to their 14.5" AR barrels. While this was several years ago, I still see these parts floating about the gun shows. One day, they, my camera, and I will all come together. The Vortex is a great design and one that is being constantly improved. This post is just an FYI. [grammah]
Link Posted: 9/10/2003 4:10:36 AM EDT
Never read the whole Vortex history Tweak... that was a good read. The new Vortex models are awesome. Nothing is as good. Phantom is pretty good, but Vortex is better.
Link Posted: 9/10/2003 5:27:08 AM EDT
Great, I was just going to ask about this! BTW, where it the best place to get a Vortex and be sure you're not getting one of the bad ones?
Link Posted: 9/10/2003 5:29:22 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Yojimbo: Great, I was just going to ask about this! BTW, where it the best place to get a Vortex and be sure you're not getting one of the bad ones?
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Go to the horse's mouth: [url]http://www.smithenterprise.com/startpage.htm[/url] Mike
Link Posted: 9/10/2003 5:29:59 AM EDT
We did a zero light indoor shoot one time. The 2 16" with Vortex had ZERO flash. The one Phantom had some flash, not much but some all the same.
Link Posted: 9/10/2003 6:34:05 AM EDT
I have not tried the Vortex, but I have both styles of Phantom's.I'm happy with them, and I wouldn't change.
Link Posted: 9/10/2003 6:34:27 AM EDT
Hehe, mounted a Vortex (straight prong) on my buddy's 20". Shot all day out at the range near Aberdeen. Sun went down and I thought, "Ah, what the hell, he ain't missed all day." For the record, my buddy is a VN Infantry vet, and a decent shot in spite of it. So with full dark on and just a little starlight I walked down to the 100 yard target, stood next to it, and lit it up with my Mini Maglite. He fired several rounds for group and all I could see, literally looking straight down the bore, was the occasional spark that didn't make past the prongs.
Link Posted: 9/10/2003 8:04:22 AM EDT
SMGLee; How's that Vortex do on those air softs? [:D]
Link Posted: 9/10/2003 9:20:53 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/10/2003 9:21:38 AM EDT by Yojimbo]
I forgot to ask earlier but how exactly does the Vortex increase accuracy? [:|]
Link Posted: 9/10/2003 10:51:27 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/10/2003 10:56:01 AM EDT by SMGLee]
Originally Posted By ikor: SMGLee; How's that Vortex do on those air softs? [:D]
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It really keep the air pressure down, way down. [;)] I love my airsoft rifles. G6 equipped Airsoft M4 with SIR #45-M, they make those airsoft look just like a real gun. [img]http://www.thermaldynamics.com/pictures/sir-m3.jpg[/img] I did not notice any sufficient accuracy increase with the G6 vs the standard A2. all my airsoft pallets hit at 1 MOA at 100yards. if there is any increase, it is very minor. Tweak, I have the original Vortex, the twist type, and the new G6, have to say, they all performed well and must got lucky and did not get the version you mentioned.
Link Posted: 9/10/2003 11:22:04 AM EDT
Lee, There's something wrong with that picture. Oh yeah, I know - you need to get the new air soft Magpul/Vltor telestock copies! That old stock looks out of date compared to the rest of the gear. Or is that where the air compressor goes? [;)]
Link Posted: 9/10/2003 12:17:32 PM EDT
Pretty impressed with the Vortex as a flash hider; but have hated open-prong muzzle devices ever since I got stuck with an M16 with the old 3-prong flash hider. That thing gathered grass and branches until it looked like a chimney sweep's whisk broom.
Link Posted: 9/10/2003 12:59:32 PM EDT
Link Posted: 9/10/2003 8:52:37 PM EDT
Hey, that one was mine!!! That happened to me after a day of full auto fire testing out a new SIR more than a year ago. I must admit, Smith Vortex was very easy going and quick about sending me one of the newer models as a replacement. The new one is built like a tank. I've done much more F/A testing with the new one with zero adverse effects. Vortex is the way to go.
Link Posted: 9/10/2003 9:11:41 PM EDT
Uh-Oh! Does it look like I have a bad one? [img]http://www.boomspeed.com/kisara/KisaraSommersVortex.jpg[/img] Anyone able to get SE to exchange for a new one, or do I have to wait for the mushroom to grow? Glad I never perm'ed this one on my 14.5!
Link Posted: 9/10/2003 9:23:37 PM EDT
LOL- Just read this on their website:
VortexTM: Websters Dictionary describes "vortex" as follows: a whirlpool; a whirlwind; anything like a whirl in a rush; catastrophic power. Phantom? Websters Dictionary describes "phantom" as follows: an apparition; an illusion, illusionary.
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Link Posted: 9/18/2003 5:02:10 PM EDT
One thing about the Phantom is the milling on the front and the slot for the tool to spin it on. It is perfect for tearing the sh*t out of someone's hand. You might ask, "why the hell would I want to tear up someone's hand?" Well if you are a cop that carries an AR variant, it a very nice feature. For instance, you have your rifle and someone grabs it, you do the "D" trick and scream "OFF THE GUN, OFF THE GUN!!!" If you aren't justified in making the shot, you don't have to take it. If their hands are near muzzle, you do the same "D" trick with a little pull action and it take the skin right off the fingers. Also you can poke and scoop a quarter shaped size piece of flesh out of the individuals chest. Hey, it's not fun, but it's better than pulling the trigger when you don't absolutely have to right? Vortex does work better but I have seen the difference at night, and it's not a whole lot. Hope this helps. Max
Link Posted: 9/18/2003 7:30:22 PM EDT
Yeah I looks like the phantom was also designed to be used a some improvised bayonet, good idea.
Link Posted: 9/18/2003 8:01:10 PM EDT
Originally Posted By MaxStatic: One thing about the Phantom is the milling on the front and the slot for the tool to spin it on. It is perfect for tearing the sh*t out of someone's hand. You might ask, "why the hell would I want to tear up someone's hand?" Well if you are a cop that carries an AR variant, it a very nice feature. For instance, you have your rifle and someone grabs it, you do the "D" trick and scream "OFF THE GUN, OFF THE GUN!!!" If you aren't justified in making the shot, you don't have to take it. If their hands are near muzzle, you do the same "D" trick with a little pull action and it take the skin right off the fingers. Also you can poke and scoop a quarter shaped size piece of flesh out of the individuals chest. Hey, it's not fun, but it's better than pulling the trigger when you don't absolutely have to right? Vortex does work better but I have seen the difference at night, and it's not a whole lot. Hope this helps. Max
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With a belt full of less than lethal gear I hope the boys in blue are not making a point of using the FS of an AR to mutilate a SUSPECT aka not proven guilty citizen. Yes if someone grabed for my barrel I would be forced to take action also but if LEO's are going to have there weapons "at the ready" and not use them then mace, club, or man up and punch somebody. Don't get me wrong I'm not pro drunk/crack head who just beat his wife and kid but I personally have been treated poorly by LEO's before and think things like the FS trick could be used against people who "I thought he was gonna, so I was forced to" bullshit. Phantom V. Vortex: Vortex good for shooting. Phantom good for a back up. Glockdog Airborne!!
Link Posted: 9/18/2003 8:34:10 PM EDT
Originally Posted By glockdog: things like the FS trick could be used against people who "I thought he was gonna, so I was forced to" bullshit.
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NOT my intention either. Would never use described technique unless someone grabbed gun and a high level of force was justified in dealing with the suspect. I'm sorry to hear that you have been dealt with poorly in the past and can only offer a "not in my county" consolation as we work for the people here. Also the above technique would not be used on just anyone for any reason. It is important to understand that this would be a last step before actually using deadly force. As an example, you arrive to a burg in progress. While clearing the building, you encounter suspect who aggresses violently towards position or ambushes you on a corner. Grabs your rifle, and the "D" trick or other methods doesn't work. Now the only reason someone would grab your gun is to disarm you, the only reason to disarm is to shoot and kill you. Soooooo someone trying to disarm you is a threat to your existence, and should be dealt with a very seriously. However, all Professional LEO pride themselves on using as little force as necessary as possible to deal with a given situation. Notice I said Professional, as not all of us, regrettably, are professional. I for one would much rather have a suspect with some stitches in his/her hand and a quarter sized shallow cut on their chest than having to bury someone. Especially if the individual was a mental or drugy under the influence. Again, not talking about the run of the mill citizen. We are talking TSHTF here. Just my .02. Hope this clears up any confusion stirred up by my previous reply. Best of. Max
Link Posted: 9/18/2003 10:51:53 PM EDT
Originally Posted By MaxStatic: For instance, you have your rifle and someone grabs it, you do the "D" trick and scream "OFF THE GUN, OFF THE GUN!!!" If you aren't justified in making the shot, you don't have to take it.
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Any LEO would know that you are more than justified in shooting a suspect that grabbed your weapon. No one is going to pull some BS "D trick".
Link Posted: 9/18/2003 11:48:40 PM EDT
OK y'all; I tried to figure this out on my own. Can't do it though. What's a "D" trick?
Link Posted: 9/19/2003 8:49:00 AM EDT
This is about to get way out of hand.
Link Posted: 9/19/2003 8:56:51 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Kisara: Any LEO would know that you are more than justified in shooting a suspect that grabbed your weapon. No one is going to pull some BS "D trick".
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Not necessarily in this day and age of cop crucifixion. If you go before a shoot board and they ask you, "could you have dealt with the situation without shooting" and you say no. Well you can figure it out. Now a last resort would be to blow the person off the end of the gun but I personally would rather deal with it another way if possible. Especially since I can, while maintaining my, and the public's, safety. Also keep in mind that a dynamic situation like this happens in about 2 sec so it doesn't leave allot of time for thought. Of course I agree with the common sense answer that someone that grabs your gun should get shot BUT this is a complicated time for LEOs. It's best to arm yourself with as many solutions to a problem as possible to avoid the ol' hammer policy....every problem is a nail. Just bringing up one of the good aspects of the Phantom, not trying stirring up a can of cop policy worms.
Originally Posted By Balisong: OK y'all; I tried to figure this out on my own. Can't do it though. What's a "D" trick?
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The "D" trick is when someone grabs a long-rifle in your possession, you place your hand on top of the handguard(or not) and trace the letter D in the air. You put all of your weight on it and chances are the person will let go. If they are far forward on the gun you can push the handgaurd down and great them with the butt of the rifle. Hope this helps. Max
Link Posted: 9/19/2003 2:41:17 PM EDT
Max, I understand where your coming from and after a nights sleep I should not even have made a post regarding yours. It was off subject and I as well as everyone here knows what you where saying. My appolagies for ranting about the way you or anyone else deals with a life/death situation. Also thank you for making an effort not to kill people just because you can. I may be that misunderstood drunk who's pissed one night. Glockdog Airborne!!
Link Posted: 9/19/2003 5:21:00 PM EDT
Glad it got cleared up. Shot today with a Vortex and Phantom. I stood off to the side and the Vortex did seem to have less flash. Phantom was like a match, Vortex was like some smoke, my KKF muzzle brake Ar was like a orange volleyball. ;-) We were using hot milsurp ammo, same in all three guns, and all rifles were 16 in. barrels.
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