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Posted: 7/17/2003 5:19:38 AM EDT
Surely this subject has come up before but I haven't found it in a search.I'd like to know if their is a noticeable difference between the two.I see most non-NFA 14.5" barrel assemblies come with the Phantom.Is that due to cost?
Link Posted: 7/17/2003 6:37:44 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/17/2003 6:38:20 AM EDT by blikbok]
The gist of the boards opinion as I have seen it is that the Smith Enterprises Vortex G5 may be the best flash hider available. But there seems to be concern that the open-ended design will catch on things like foliage, or the prongs may bend under harsh handling. For a permanent mounting, the Phantom appears to be the near-100% choice. I presume because the closed-end may be more rugged. I can see why durability may be more desireable than absolute performance. I do not have a Phantom, but I hear they are not much less efficient than the Vortex. The Phantom is also very popular for non-permanent mounting as well. Both sell for the same price at Bushmaster.com, though I assume someone makes cheaper knockoffs.
Link Posted: 7/17/2003 6:41:42 AM EDT
I think just about everyone here will agree the vortex is a better performer in flash suppression (by a small margin). However, this does not mean its the better of the two. I have a vortex and don't have any complaints but hear lots of talk about the open prongs getting caught on clothing, staps, branches, etc. I shoot my rifle for fun, not for work, and put on what I think looks the best and fits my budget. You can't go wrong with either one.
Link Posted: 7/17/2003 6:48:16 AM EDT
So what does it mean? with the phantom i get what looks like a flash or lick of dark cherry red flame that is about 3-4" long. when viewed from a few feet away. at 10 yds you can't see much at all and at 50 yds it's invisible. just lot's of noise.
Link Posted: 7/17/2003 10:07:23 AM EDT
I haven't fired any of my flashhiders in darkness. I doubt the Vortex hides all flash from all angles. I've never caught it fireballing in daytime, and I have had postbans, especially with the evil AK brake, put purple in my retina in daylight. To stay true to the AR15.com motto, I'm thinking about a Phantom on the next rifle. :)
Link Posted: 7/17/2003 10:07:37 AM EDT
I have Flash hiders for one thing. To hide the friggin flash... Vortex...When you absolutely, positively have to kill every spark comin out of the barrel... Night fire....ZERO flash... IF they break, I will pay and buy another one...IF you buy the real deal, NIW, I can say it will last 3K at least, cuz I am there and no signs of movement yet... If you dont care about light, buy an A2, much cheaper than the Phantom....
Link Posted: 7/17/2003 10:41:17 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/17/2003 11:19:58 AM EDT by blikbok]
Glad to hear I made a good choice. Who is the original manufacturer of the Vortex? Is it Smith Enterprises? I would like to ensure mine is the Real Thing (tm). They claim the patent on a "Sommers VortexTM Flash hider". I bought mine from Bushmaster, but they don't list who they got it from. The odd thing about the Vortex for me is the tuning fork sound it adds when I close the bolt. Ssshunk-Tiiiiiiiiiing. :)
Link Posted: 7/17/2003 1:04:40 PM EDT
Link Posted: 7/17/2003 1:35:57 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/17/2003 1:36:16 PM EDT by Vinnie]
I only see Phantom Supressors on their web site. Am I going nutz?
Link Posted: 7/17/2003 2:18:48 PM EDT
You guys with Vortex's, are they on 16" barrels or 14.5"?What's the total length if they're on a 16" barrel?
Link Posted: 7/17/2003 4:15:16 PM EDT
Link Posted: 7/18/2003 3:33:13 AM EDT
... and on a 14.5" bbl the total length is "over 16 inches." I have the original, sharp cornered Vortex permanently mounted on a 14.5" bbl. Ground the sharp points off per instrctions from Smith Enterprise. I have the latest version on my 16" LW Dissipator, and the US-marked "Crane NSW" version on my shorty M14. I've tried most available flash supressors and will stick with Vortex until something better comes along. -- Chuck
Link Posted: 7/18/2003 4:50:53 AM EDT
The most current version of the Sommers Vortex is the G-6 model, which has recently superceded the G-5. The G-6 is optimised for use with the new Arms Tech LTD QD-223 suppressor. It works on the M-4/M16 AND M-249 SAW. It has been submitted in response to a recent RFQ for M-16A2 flash hiders. The system was refently tested at APG, MD on behalf of MARCORSYSCOM. I have read the final report in the last few days. The Vortex clearly proved superior to the issue unit in flash suppression on all weapons tested: M16, M4, M249 and M240. I have some issues with test methodology (being and old ORSA type with mucho USG gummint testing background). The test summary concluded that the patented design clearly has potential. The Vortex line continues to expand and has even has been recently made for the M60 GPMG -- believe it or not. Yes, several RC units still have that old warhorse and due to budgetary concerns, the weapon is not going away. I use several Vortex systems on a host of weapons -- couldn't be happier. The Vortex is manufactured from 8620 stock heat treated before and after machining and normalized. The surface hardness is 52-54 Rockwell C with a core hardness of 36-38 Rockwell C. These specs the same as for M14 receivers and the M16 bolt carrier. Good enough for ya? It's about as solid a piece of kit as you can get. You can call them direct: 480 964-1818
Link Posted: 7/18/2003 10:14:25 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/18/2003 11:58:34 AM EDT by blikbok]
Glad to see such a store of knowledge being shared here. I don't see the information about the G5 or G6 versions on Smith's website. What are the differences between them, and how do I tell if I have a 4, 5, or 6?
Link Posted: 7/18/2003 10:40:27 AM EDT
Mach 6, are the G6's out yet?That would be a great asset to those of us who want to add a suppressor to our non-NFA 14.5 barrels.
Link Posted: 7/18/2003 11:57:09 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/18/2003 12:00:41 PM EDT by mach6]
Originally Posted By Redbone: Mach 6, are the G6's out yet?That would be a great asset to those of us who want to add a suppressor to our non-NFA 14.5 barrels.
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---------------- Yes, they are now available to civilians. They're identical to the ones being used by several USG enitities and now being looked at at Picatinny, USMC and others. Remember, the G-6 is designed with the recessed ring in the back so you can use it with the new suppressor from AT LTD. Talked to Sonya a few minutes ago back in Phoenix. Said she has them available for direct sales at Smith Ent or you can get them thru their distributor, Brownell's (New catalog going out this week!). Good luck.
Link Posted: 7/18/2003 4:20:52 PM EDT
I've emailed and recieved a response from Buashmaster. They no longer carry the Vortex Flash Supressor.
Link Posted: 7/18/2003 6:09:06 PM EDT
Originally Posted By mach6: The G-6 is optimised for use with the new Arms Tech LTD QD-223 suppressor.
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any info on this can, or does Arms Tech have a website? all i can find is their phone number and address on Jane's. i want to get a can, and depending on price and weight, this sounds just like what i'm looking for!
Link Posted: 7/20/2003 5:36:27 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/20/2003 5:43:25 AM EDT by mach6]
Originally Posted By fixer:
Originally Posted By mach6: The G-6 is optimised for use with the new Arms Tech LTD QD-223 suppressor.
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any info on this can, or does Arms Tech have a website? all i can find is their phone number and address on Jane's. i want to get a can, and depending on price and weight, this sounds just like what i'm looking for!
View Quote
-------------------- Unfortunately, most Arms Tech LTD suppressors and indeed most of their products are not available to civilians or the NFA market. The company is principally oriented on supporting the more arcane components of the SOF community and other USG entities, as well as FMS. Their current lines are: Tel 602 272-9045 Fax 602 272-1922 Their website appears to be under construction. The only AT LTD suppressor available at present to the NFA market is their MD-30S, which is employed by several USG agencies on .308 and .300 WM weapons. Oh, I forgot they make a perfect repro/rebuild of the WWII OSS .22LR HD Mil for well-heeled collectors, but that's really all us mortals can get access to. As far as their rifles are concerned, only their TTR-700 Tactical Takedown Rifle and their very exotic SMIR .300 WM semiauto are available as Title I firearms. Their 5.56mm gas trap COMPAK-16 and R-2 for example, are LE/USG/FMS only. Those two latter guns come standard with the new G-6 Flash Eliminator. Can't wait to try one with their new QD-223 can down in FL next month. Wish I could be more help.
Link Posted: 7/20/2003 6:26:02 AM EDT
I've seen two vortex suppressors(14.5"/ vortex uppers bought directly from Bushmaster) blow tines off. They open up like a flower. Bushmaster said they had a bad batch of Vortexes and promptly replaced them. That's why I switched to the phantom.
Link Posted: 7/20/2003 10:54:13 AM EDT
Link Posted: 7/20/2003 12:11:53 PM EDT
Troy -- that depiction is of a very old Vortex design. The new G-6 ones (which are to accomodate the M-4/M-16 and...the M-249)are very different. First off, there is only one very deep ring behind the tines, which is to accomodate the locking collar on the new AT LTD suppressor as stated above as well as the Smith Enterprise BFA, which itself is vastly improved over the issue POS. Secondly, there are no radial recesses at the front of the tines. Lastly, their is now a "skirt" at the very rear of the system that seals the FH over the end of the barrel. BTW, The M-240 Vortex (and associated BFA) is very similar in execution.
Link Posted: 7/20/2003 2:10:17 PM EDT
The picture Troy posted was my rifle. I had that Vortex about 2 years without any problems. After one day of F/A torture testing a new SIR system, the above Vortex blew out like that. I had heard about the problems many times before. As soon as it happened, I called Smith Ent. They said that there was a small batch of improperly heat treated units that left their place. They made it seem like it was a very small amount. I have heard and actually seen the problem a number of times, so I think it is probably more than just a few of their older units, but thats a total guess. In any case, they IMMEDIATELY replaced the above suppressor with one of their newer models. This was more than a year ago and I think they have two or maybe even three newer upgrades. The one I have I am very pleased with. My rifles get used a lot and handled a lot by folks other than myself. They dont always get the care I would like. The rifle has been dropped no less than twice that I am aware of. Impact was directly on the Vortex. There is no bend or distortion whatsoever. It remains quite symetrical. I have also done more F/A testing on the gun and there has been no mushromming of the tines. I also have a Phantom on another rifle that gets handles almost as much as the one with the Vortex. Someone dropped that rifle and it landed Phantom first. One of the teeth in the phantom bent outward very, very visibly. With a vice and some care, we were able to bend it back and it appears to be very symetrical again, even to folks with a very critical eye. But I have to say, I used to think the Phantom was probably the more durable of the two. I no longer think that. The new Vortexs are extremely beefy and sturdy. The Phantoms, while closed ended, are machined much, much thinner. An interesting side note. Many, many (not all) flash suppressors and muzzle brakes adversely effect accuracy. The Vortex is one of the few that has no adverse effect on accuracy. Some claim it increases it. I am doubtful of that. But I do know that at the very least itdoes not degrade accuracy. The 14.5" Bushmaster M4 barrel I have with the new Vortex will easily shoot sub moa out to the furthest I have had the opportunity to test it (300 yards). Granted, the barrel is free floated, with a JP trigger and a TA31 ACOG, but I have no doubt the Vortex plays a part.
Link Posted: 7/20/2003 2:40:35 PM EDT
This is not their newest design, but it the replacement I got from the mushroomed one pictured above. [img]http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid21/p8910f3b13c573540ec1857a2a287d039/fdb2e86d.jpg[/img]
Link Posted: 7/20/2003 4:04:19 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/20/2003 8:05:36 PM EDT by mach6]
Originally Posted By new-arguy: This is not their newest design, but it the replacement I got from the mushroomed one pictured above. -------------- New AR-Guy, Yours is a G-4 or G-5 model. Actually, there has been some USG testing on the G-5 (G-6 testing underway now) which indicates that the system tends to enhance accuracy. Case in point was a recent test conducted at JRTC on a .308 bolt gun. Read the report a few weeks ago in DC and was most impressed. Likewise, the recent test conducted on the G-5 by ARL at APG on behalf of USMC showed phenomenal dispersion results on the M-249. Likewise, MARCORSYSCOM tested a 5.56mm R2 top end on an M4A1 (as a possible reliability upgrade) late last year in which the weapon was fitted with the experimental "Tigershark" variant of the G-5 and reporteed one MOA groups at 300 yards. Amazing. In sum, I think you are correct in stating that the "Vortex plays a part" in the overall accuracy picture.
Link Posted: 7/20/2003 7:23:05 PM EDT
Interesting how it is believed to enhance accuracy. I can see how a muzzle device could degrade accuracy, but didnt know how it could play a part in increasing the inherant accuracy of a gun. Granted, I cant say I'm one who would really know, but I hadnt previously thought a Vortex (or anything) could really enhance accuracy over, say, a crowned barrel. In any case, Im more than pleased with the Vortex I have, even if I am unsure just which model. I think it is the G4 though. I remember seeing posts about the new G5 and I think that one had a rib near the base. If I recall, the rib or ribs were to work with a blank adapter or some other device(s)? In any case, all the advantages the new Vortex devices offer over any other suppressor on the market right now made it an easy choice for me. I have had a cheapo immitation Vortex, one of their older ones and the new Tactical Vortex, I also have a older style Phantom (with the teeth) and an A2. Needless to say, the Vortex sits on my favorite rifle. This is not to say I dont think it has disadvantages. It is open ended and I can see how that could present a problem catching on foliage and the like. The tuning fork "ting" is also quite true. However, in my view, the slim chance that I might find myself walking through the woods or jungle with the rifle (Im a city feller myself) and an occasional "ting" didnt seem like a lot to accept considering the superior flash suppression, strength of design and accuracy potential I was gaining.
Link Posted: 7/20/2003 10:19:43 PM EDT
This question might add another angle: Is anyone familiar with the flash suppressor used with the Advanced Armament sound/flash suppressor combo? Obviously with the addition of a sound suppressor one can experience the ultimate in suppresson. But...How does JUST the flash suppressor perform?
Link Posted: 7/21/2003 7:00:00 AM EDT
New ARguy: I'll try to dig up the data, but there was a Finnish work on the accuracy and precicsion of the Valmet M76 and various muzzle devices: [url]http://guns.connect.fi/rs/impact.html[/url] This page summarizes the results, especially interesting are points 4 and 5: [url]http://guns.connect.fi/rs/summary.html[/url]
Link Posted: 7/21/2003 7:28:17 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Chuck: the US-marked "Crane NSW" version on my shorty M14.
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Chuck, can you please post a photo of the marked one? Thanks!
Link Posted: 7/21/2003 3:20:12 PM EDT
But which one would be better if you had to perminantly attach it to make it NFA compliant? Its one thing with the threaded ones you can take off and send for a replacement. But when you have to send out the whole barrel. So which one is the least likely to get bent?
Link Posted: 7/21/2003 9:48:52 PM EDT
in my experience, the new Vortex will be the least likely to bend. Read my story on page one for more... Its just one story I know, but it happened to me.
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