Warning

 

Close

Confirm Action

Are you sure you wish to do this?

Confirm Cancel
Member Login
Posted: 7/14/2003 12:59:57 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/14/2003 1:11:50 PM EDT by IronBalaclava]
So i was on the phone with a GG&G rep and he tells me that they have a new 2 piece Free float RAS type
adaptor system in production to go up against the other big boys(KAC/ARMS) The construction is Aircraft aluminum-2 piece. He mentioned that the rails are removable/adjustable and it comes with rail covers. The product is going for $236.00 and will be available withing a month.He told me it is not yet in the catolog but it is to be on the website as of shortly.

Any of you guys heard any news? PICS??

Anybody have any info at MSTN??

Edited to add:extra info
Link Posted: 7/14/2003 2:44:42 PM EDT
The picture on it is on the latest issue of hte Shotgun news.
Link Posted: 7/14/2003 2:49:54 PM EDT
Is it a free float system?
Link Posted: 7/14/2003 2:57:21 PM EDT
Originally Posted By innocent_bystander: Is it a free float system?
View Quote
Roger that. Hey Chen, Just picked up the July 21st issue today and don't see it anywhere. Pics?
Link Posted: 7/14/2003 3:15:54 PM EDT
Got it here in front of me its the July 8 issue. Its free floating with rails mountable at the 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11 and 12 position, via removable rails secured by allen head screws. Cal
Link Posted: 7/14/2003 3:32:00 PM EDT
It is a clamp shell style, it is suppose to be iron clad rigid. I hold my reservation until I get one to bang around with. and I might be getting a demo unit in the near future.
Link Posted: 7/14/2003 6:25:46 PM EDT
SMGLee, If you get one to test, please let us know if it will allow Eotechs to co-witness with the iron sights.
Link Posted: 7/15/2003 7:05:01 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/15/2003 7:12:07 AM EDT by SMGLee]
The GG&G handguard is a free float system that is in the same concept as the free float RAS which sits the rail on the same plain as the receiver rail. The handguard clamps to the upper receiver at the barrel nut, and several allen screws along the split line of the handguard tightens the handguards together. the rail can be mounted at various corner vs. the stand 12, 3, 6, 9 oclock position. additional rail can be purchased as an option. it is a very interesting concept. The rail handguard will co-witness with EOTech perfectly.
Link Posted: 7/15/2003 9:55:20 AM EDT
Originally Posted By wjshark: SMGLee, If you get one to test, please let us know if it will allow Eotechs to co-witness with the iron sights.
View Quote
If it is just the handguard replacement, why would it alter your co-witness? Am I missing something?
Link Posted: 7/15/2003 10:57:43 AM EDT
Link Posted: 7/15/2003 3:47:29 PM EDT
SMGLee, Thanks, that was the only issue that was stopping me from pre-ordering one.
Link Posted: 7/15/2003 5:35:04 PM EDT
someone please post a picture of one!!!
Link Posted: 7/15/2003 5:39:41 PM EDT
Originally Posted By mikepenn33: someone please post a picture of one!!!
View Quote
pretty please? With Sugar on top?
Link Posted: 7/16/2003 9:37:03 PM EDT
I don't have a picture of it but the price of the habdguard is 265.00 retial and no one usually sale at retail, so the handguard will be below the price of a RAS or SIR, but higher then a Firsh. You will need to remove the delta ring to install the handguard. I will have to see if I can find that issue of the shotgun news and scan the picture.
Link Posted: 7/17/2003 7:13:20 AM EDT
Sorry for the quality, but my scanner isn't the best: [img]http://www.calvert1.com/guns/lastscan.jpg[/img]
Link Posted: 7/17/2003 10:59:18 AM EDT
looks like thick tube that may be kinda heavy. what do you folks think?
Link Posted: 7/17/2003 4:06:07 PM EDT
VERY HEAVY, VERY HOT TO TRY AND HOLD IN RAPID FIRE, WILL NOT EVER BE IN PERFECT ALIGNMENT WITH THE RECEIVER, NOT FIELD MATINANCE FRIENDLY, TOO MANY ALLEN WRENCH SCREWS ALL OVER THE PLACE, ABOUT AS SOPHISTICATED AS A ROCK COMPAIRED TO OTHERS IN MY OPINION. Jack
Link Posted: 7/17/2003 4:08:55 PM EDT
HOLY SHIT [shock] For once I agree with 3rdtk!
Link Posted: 7/17/2003 4:12:29 PM EDT
Lumpy See, there is hope for you after all:) Jack
Link Posted: 7/17/2003 6:52:28 PM EDT
Wow. That does look kinda' thick. The vents don't look like they'd give adequate cooling/heat dispersion. The adjustable rails seem to protrude quite far....and the screws--oh man. I'll stick with the RAS.
Link Posted: 7/18/2003 7:26:00 AM EDT
Yeah, one problem I can see is that you might as well have made the bottom a permanent rail. It is made out of aluminium so it isn't like you can put your hand there if you do any sustained shooting. You pretty much need a rail and rail covers or a rail and vertical grip to use it. So it isn't like you really can detach the bottom rail even though it is possible. If I absolutely need the rail for any sustained use of the thing, I'm not real sure I get a good feeling about it being detachable. I have mixed feelings about ARMS selective rails too but at least you could still grab the polymer lower.
Link Posted: 7/18/2003 7:44:05 AM EDT
Link Posted: 7/18/2003 9:45:22 AM EDT
There is another new rail system posted on the SIR FIRSH TEST THREAD! From POF or something...go check it out! Hmmmm!
Link Posted: 7/19/2003 5:33:04 AM EDT
Originally Posted By 3rdtk: VERY HEAVY, VERY HOT TO TRY AND HOLD IN RAPID FIRE, WILL NOT EVER BE IN PERFECT ALIGNMENT WITH THE RECEIVER, NOT FIELD MATINANCE FRIENDLY, TOO MANY ALLEN WRENCH SCREWS ALL OVER THE PLACE, ABOUT AS SOPHISTICATED AS A ROCK COMPAIRED TO OTHERS IN MY OPINION. Jack
View Quote
There goes Dicky again, never having had one in his hands, totally trashing a competitor's product. On the contrary, it seems to me a FF Rail system that goes on a post-ban with a welded-on flash suppressor with a few simple tools and skill level is just what about 10,000 post-ban AR owners needed. Wish we (KAC) had come up with it. Of course, just like the sir system, I don't like the idea of cutting off the Delta Ring to get the rail system with less flex than the C model sir.
Link Posted: 7/19/2003 6:34:31 AM EDT
ColdBlue, what "flex" is this that you speak of? I've got 2 SIRs (C and M), a RAS2, and a FFRAS and there's no noticable flex in any of them? -Cap'n
Link Posted: 7/19/2003 7:15:58 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/19/2003 7:16:54 AM EDT by Duffy]
coldblue I don't think this will be a serious challenger in the rail handguards market dominated by KAC, its only contender being the SIR series. I don't have a SIR and can't make comparisons, as an owner of numerous RASs I do admire KAC product's elegance in its simplicity, something I didn't know to appreciate until I saw GG&G's design with all the screws and seperate parts.
Link Posted: 7/19/2003 9:36:30 AM EDT
When the rear of an upper receiver is mounted securely in a vice, a rail mounted laser is secured to a side rail and "zero" marked on a distant target. Weights are then applied to the top rail and the resultant deflection of the laser is measured on a distant target. My C model sir flexes quite easily with very little weight added under these conditions. Much more than other systems in comparison. This is the only way to test it. Holding the gun in your hands and trying to deflect the rail forend only flexes the barrel and isvery deceiving as to what is moving--rail or barrel. Never tested a m model, but I assume that it is beefier in the area where the c model cuts around the delta ring and where most of the flex is coming from.
Link Posted: 7/19/2003 9:42:33 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Duffy: coldblue...something I didn't know to appreciate until I saw GG&G's design with all the screws and seperate parts.
View Quote
I have not seen the GG&G thing in parts, but my c model sir has nearly a shoebox full of parts and pieces when totally dis-assembled, and a whole hand full when fieldstripped for cleaning. How much more complex could gg&g's be? The GG&G FF rail is right for a part of the user need out there (see first CBlue post). The other reason I like it is that it doesn't need a flat top UR to work and doesn't raise the host weapon rail and obsolete a bunch of mounting systems. Just tring to make "objective" observations here...
Link Posted: 7/19/2003 4:51:01 PM EDT
There has never been anything objective about coldblew, just subtle self promotions and personal attacks to someone he thinks I/we must be. LOL If you notice he never says anything negative about anything except the SIR, gee I wonder if it may be a serious contender to his stuff? It seems to be OK for anyone else to make a comment on hardware, except me. Coldblew get a grip on your self., facts will be pointed out about hardware by me whether you like it or not. I comment on optic's, lasers mounts, weapons, calibres, and general harware, and I have only made resposes to you when you started it. If you don't like me pointing out a view on a piece of gear to this membership, tough shit, crawl back under your palm tree. Jack
Link Posted: 7/19/2003 6:55:38 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/19/2003 6:56:06 PM EDT by KevinB]
Jack, I do agree with Dave on this one. The SIR does have an abundance of parts ('captive' screws, rails than come come off, the PEQ-2 plate. Furthermore he never said it (GG&G thingy) was military relevant item. No negative conotations just an observation Kevin
Link Posted: 7/19/2003 6:55:48 PM EDT
ColdBlue, maybe I didn't say this clearly enough in my original post... We did almost exactly as you said (we used 50M for zero) and the system that "flexed" the most was a FFRAS (midlength) and a full length FIRSH. Even the RAS 2 had more flex than the SIR (#50) C. For the 4th time today, I agree with Jack, it seems that these KAC tests aren't very objective. -Cap'n
Link Posted: 7/19/2003 7:01:34 PM EDT
Crunch, Testing done by myself and a few co-workers had the FFRAS as the most stable platform. (actually a local Canadian Rail by Dlask was tighest but it has some other issue that got it discounted) RASII and SIR-M was simiar - although we had zero issues on SIR rail after re-attachment. PRI was okay once the ARMS rail was added FIRSH was dismal in deflection.
Link Posted: 7/19/2003 7:32:32 PM EDT
Kevin, I'll be the first to admit that our test FFRAS (a patrol rifle that had been rolling around in the back of a cruiser for months, and had 10K rounds put through it since the install) was worn slap out, but the SIR C and M still experienced less deflection than the RAS 2. The SIR M gun had been through almost as much abuse as the FFRAS gun, and it was still a top performer. Why is that? I'm not downing the Knight's systems at all, but... If a well worn SIR M has less deflection than a RAS 2, and Dave is whining about the amount of deflection with the SIR... What does that say about their product? The MAIN thing that sold the SIR to me though... Have you ever damaged a rail on a RAS? We've got a RAS gun that we have to remove the RAS to get the flashlight mount off because of a burred rail. If the rails were selective, you could just replace the rail and it would be as good as new. Sorry for the rant, and turning this into another SIR vs RAS debate, but I was provoked I tell ya, hehe. I've been working WAY too much this week, and haven't been getting enough rest. -Cap'n
Link Posted: 7/19/2003 8:26:17 PM EDT
Crunch - Hey no harms no foul. I thing I did notice is some receivers affect the performance of the rail system... We tried four US makes and two Canadian ones -the ARMS SIR's will not mount to the oddball 'Weaver" (ya right my ass)on the Diemaco flattops we get. I think the SIR/RAS arguments are getting like the EOTECH/AIMPOINT - both have virtues and are good, nay, excellent equipment. Some will perfer one of the other due to ones past experiences and job/mission requirments. Additionally since we were adding the M203 the SIR barrel clamp was removed which resulted in a huge increase of the 'bend'.
Link Posted: 7/20/2003 1:41:55 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/20/2003 1:49:09 AM EDT by knightone]
Originally Posted By Capn_Crunch: The MAIN thing that sold the SIR to me though... Have you ever damaged a rail on a RAS? We've got a RAS gun that we have to remove the RAS to get the flashlight mount off because of a burred rail. If the rails were selective, you could just replace the rail and it would be as good as new.
View Quote
Wouldn't you be in the same boat if there was a burr on the top or bottom rail of the SIR? Then agaoin, since it is a light mount, couldn't you just adjust where the mount is placed and where the light is placed within the mount (if it is placed in a spot where the "on" button can be pushed easily) to solve the problem? Either way, it is just a flashlight mount and does not necessarily have to be easily removed. A solution for a possible ND with a weapon mounted light could be an opaque tip-off filter. An optic mount might be more critical for quick and easy removal if it is obscuring the BUIS for some reason. Not trying to be an a-hole, just trying to point out that the problem might be easily solved and that a burr on the top rail of either a SIR or RAS could be more of a problem if that is where an optic is placed. As far as deflection, it could be a particular RAS with a particular receiver that just didn't want to mate up properly for whatever reasons seeing how you and KevinB (and possibly coldblue) weregetting somewhat varied results. Did you guys try mounting the same systems on different receivers, sort of as a safety just in case of slightly out of spec receivers or mounts?
Link Posted: 7/20/2003 5:37:17 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Capn_Crunch: We did almost exactly as you said (we used 50M for zero) and the system that "flexed" the most was a FFRAS (midlength) and a full length FIRSH. Even the RAS 2 had more flex than the SIR (#50) C. For the 4th time today, I agree with Jack, it seems that these KAC tests aren't very objective. -Cap'n
View Quote
All I can figure here is that our test set-ups were different. I am inside a large building, using a 300 lbs., bolted to the floor steel work bench with a block of steel supporting the front pivot/rear take-down pins, and then this 70 lbs. machinst vice holds the thing. A rail mounted CVL PEQ-4 pointed at a far wall. Weights are stacked at the end of the top rail. Only tested one c model, and it flexed significantly. Our FF RAS did not more at all. Perhaps your FF RAS handguard not is not properly torqued? For all others, I don't have to "crawl" anywhere, as I always have, and will continue to be "standing out in the light of day". The only people I know that do "crawl" are those hiding under a rock somewhere like West Bridgewater. However, I will be trimming the palm trees in my yard today, so "whats his face" was at least partially right when he "blew" this one.
Link Posted: 7/20/2003 11:32:04 AM EDT
ColdBlue, not sure of the weight of the workbench or vice, it wasn't our building we did the testing in. The bench was bolted down, and the vice was VERY secure. Also used a Surefire L72 in a M series body with screwmounts. Like I said, our FFRAS wasn't in the best shape and it more than likely has torqued itself loose. Thanks for the infromative response. Knightone, the bottom rail of the SIR is removable also. We use tip off IR, so opaque is out of the question. Anyhow, the only reason I even found out that it was burred was during disassembly/maintenance of the rifle one night. It's not really as big a deal as i made it out to be, hehe. Kevin, one of my SIR uppers is on a Colt/Diemaco upper, maybe they're different than what you guys have though... I wish I could get a Diemaco barrel to match... Anyhow, yeah, removing the barrel yoke will let it bend a LARGE amount. And it ALL boils down to preference. I love my SIR on my carbines, but I have no clue how I'm going to like the full length #59. It just looks so heavy and unweildy. I may end up scrapping that project for a CAR length gas system rifle with a Full length FFRAS and RAS BUIS... -Cap'n -Cap'n
Link Posted: 7/20/2003 12:05:35 PM EDT
Crunch, Yes Diemco builds M1913 spec recievers for everyone but the CF Some idiot told them/us (and worse was believed) that Diemaoc uses the 'Weaver' spec and it is better
Link Posted: 7/20/2003 12:23:01 PM EDT
Kevin, that sucks... Does Diemaco sell to the Canadian public? -Cap'n
Link Posted: 7/20/2003 12:53:38 PM EDT
Capt, Diemaco is restrtict by contract ot sell only to military and LE dept, not even LEO private sales. Diemaco is free to contact the foreign military for any sales but no civilians out side of Canada. Diemaco is used by the British, Denmark, Aussies, and I believe Norway nowadays. I have been told by my Army 18B buddy, the Diemaco C8 is the best AR carbine ever made. As far as the GG&G system, it is a better alternative then the Firsh, but I don't know how well it stack up against the RAS or the SIR.
Link Posted: 7/21/2003 7:02:50 PM EDT
I was by GG&G's facility's the other day, and they should me there new forearm. It looks pretty trick. The rails can be placed at any position. It comes with long and short length rails. And 2 off-set rails. I have never seen off-set rails. Has any body else? I told them I thought it would get to hot under shooting conditions. They said that it will come with Delrin(i think that's right)rails to replace the rails that you are not using. So you are not grabbing aluminum. I liked it because it was Billet machined, not cast. And it had a true black color to it, and not greyish. I got one on order right now. It should be ready in late Aug.
Top Top