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Posted: 6/14/2003 2:47:39 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/14/2003 2:48:26 PM EDT by ultima-ratio]
Does anyone of you have experience with the AR15 (they call it XR15) which Sabre Defence in England produces? They are offered in Germany now and seem to be good from what I read.

Due to the German gun law the bolt has to be of a non military production and so (I know it doesn't make sence) one cam is milled off the bolt. May that influence the function of the rifle in a negative way?

Thanks!
j.-a.
Link Posted: 6/14/2003 6:58:38 PM EDT
Link Posted: 6/15/2003 12:23:48 AM EDT
No, that law will remain. We have a new law since the 1st of April. Because of that new law I'm now allowed to buy AR15 in configurations similar to yours in the USA: No flashhider, no telescopic buttstock, no 30rds mags but all black, with pistol grip. Before we had the damn §37, no rifle was allowed that you might confuse with an assault rifle (and in fact almost everything was forbidden). Unfortunately there are still many restrictions. One is that the bolt has to be totally different to military/full-auto ones and so one cam has to be milled off. If I'm not wrong your bolts also differ from full-auto bolts, right? But they don't lack one cam?! Any info about the Sabre Defence rifles?
Link Posted: 6/15/2003 4:41:42 AM EDT
Originally Posted By ultima-ratio: No, that law will remain. We have a new law since the 1st of April. Because of that new law I'm now allowed to buy AR15 in configurations similar to yours in the USA: No flashhider, no telescopic buttstock, no 30rds mags but all black, with pistol grip. Before we had the damn §37, no rifle was allowed that you might confuse with an assault rifle (and in fact almost everything was forbidden). Unfortunately there are still many restrictions. One is that the bolt has to be totally different to military/full-auto ones and so one cam has to be milled off. If I'm not wrong your bolts also differ from full-auto bolts, right? But they don't lack one cam?! Any info about the Sabre Defence rifles?
View Quote
The bolt is the same,the bolt carrier is differant ,the rear area of the bolt carrier is milled so the the auto sear won't work
Link Posted: 6/15/2003 4:50:16 AM EDT
That sounds like a save solution to civilize an AR15. Wonder why we need this BS here?! I'm a littel bit confused. In German gun magazines and on the website of the distributor is said that Sabre Defence produces the XR15 in England but from their website [url]www.sabredefence.com[/url] it seems like they are located in Nashville Tennesse. [>:/]
Link Posted: 6/15/2003 4:56:14 AM EDT
I guess you know about the biggest German Gun Forum- all the info is here in the semi-auto forum: [url]http://www.wo-system.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php[/Url] The Ar15 Clone from Oberland Arms doesn't have a milled cam, it is just the XR15. However, both come with these crazy extremely heavy bull barrels, which make no sense even for a sport shooter. But you can buy the Oberland SPR clone for 3500,- Euros- without a scope that is. Americans, I envy you!!! Regards Cato BTW, 30 rds. magazines are legal now, the telescoping stock is being discussed!!
Link Posted: 6/15/2003 5:29:24 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Cato: I guess you know about the biggest German Gun Forum- all the info is here in the semi-auto forum: [url]http://www.wo-system.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php[/Url]
View Quote
Nice site, but unfortunately for most Americans the site is … auf Deutsch!
Link Posted: 6/15/2003 5:39:31 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/15/2003 6:04:55 AM EDT by ultima-ratio]
Thanks Cato! I know you from the WO Boards. I'm registered there also as ultima ratio but as I said some days ago in the "Halbautomaten" Forum I don't like it too much there. It is ruled by a company that has commercial interests and that can't do any good to a discussion forum. I only knew that the 30rds mags can be bought legally but are you allowed to use them in the rifle? Oberland Arms stated that they won't sell AR15 with telescopic buttstocks. Any changes in the future I don't know about? I hate the idea of buying an OA15 for 1.700,-EUR and than replace most furniture parts with the ones I like more (for extra cash). You can be sure that I won't buy a SPR clone for 3.500,-EUR. I would really prefer a slim barrel, 14,5" M4 government profile. A heavy barrel isn't more accurate just because it is heavy - it's just cheaper for the manufacturer not to mill down the barrel to a superior profile and a heavy barrel has only disadvantages when shooting w/o bipod or standing. If I understand correctly OA can leave all cams on the bolt because the rifle is totally made for civilian use and because Sabre Defence and Oly Arms also produce for the military they have to mill the cam off? That's curious cause as far as I know OA only makes the lower and upper receivers and the barrels in Germany. The bolt is still made by DPMS. Another thing about the WO Board is that there are IMHO very few people that have a good knowledge about the AR15. From what I read your comments are good and I really like the detailed posts of Makalu but I wanted to ask the guys that have decades of experience with AR15 rifles and not the WO newbies. As you can see I'm registered here since March 2001 and I guess I'm the only German with over 300 posts here. I'v learned a lot from AR15.com and I don't think that there are many people in a German forum that can tell me something new about AR15. The only problem is that I don't learned here how the disfigured AR15 in Germany have to look to be legal. Cato, have you thought about importing an AR15 on your own? Surely, it is a different thing for you in Austria but maybe you know how US manufacturers react on orders from Europe.
Link Posted: 6/15/2003 6:43:15 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/15/2003 6:53:11 AM EDT by Cato]
Ultima, I certainly don't wanted to downgrade the info available here- I can't describe how much it is worth to me! I agree, people at WO (and Oberland Arms) are mainly sport shooters with no interest in a serious AR (thank God here in Austria, we can still own firearms for defense). I don't like Oberland Arms policy & pricing either, but they may have the better product. If I were you, I would wait til this damn "Verordnung" is enacted and see, if any lightweight Ar barrels are available then- the German market is overly cautious to do nothing wrong right now IMHO. Right now, to get barrels out of the USA, nothing short of a mircale is needed. Most dealers (I recommend EagleFirearms & AdrenalineArms) at E&E forum will sell/export you small parts, but no receivers, barrels, etc. Once the temporary export stop is lifted by the US State Department, it may all change. BTW, "Makalu" at WO, is trying to get a US barrel right now. I hope he keeps us up to date on his experiences... Austria has even harsher laws regarding "weapons of military origin" than Germany (no M1, no .30 carbine, etc. here!!), but once a system is legal, as is the OA15 right now, looks don't count- I can add all the stuff I want (exept flashiders!), reprofile the barrel, etc. The only factor is cost- I have to totally agree, for 1700,- Euros, one should get all he wants...but lets face reality this is not the case.. [>(] Regards Cato
Link Posted: 6/15/2003 6:52:39 AM EDT
Link Posted: 6/15/2003 6:59:28 AM EDT
I noticed "Defence" on the web site which is the British spelling I think for defense.
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