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Posted: 5/4/2003 7:26:18 PM EDT
OK, so my idiocy at least resulted in this cool pic. I have a nasty habbit of not paying attention to where my barrel is when shooting from over cover .

Look how the muzzl blast left a mark on the cover. How the ends twist in a vortex shape. Pretty cool!

Link Posted: 5/4/2003 7:40:15 PM EDT
I saw that across the hood of a Crown Vic once. Phrase of the day: clear the muzzle Cool pic.
Link Posted: 5/4/2003 10:14:58 PM EDT
Did your rounds impact to point of aim?
Link Posted: 5/5/2003 7:02:19 AM EDT
So the optics cleared, but the boreline didn't. I have seen that on the opposite side of a pickup bed before. Someone is going to I-TOLD-YOU-SO for that high height above bore from the TA31 W/QD Arms mount and the SIR. Or is this the setup? That could have been painful had you been behind concrete!
Link Posted: 5/5/2003 7:32:38 AM EDT
Very cool picture. I have done the sam thing to a door jam at a CQB class with my gun..
Link Posted: 5/5/2003 5:00:03 PM EDT
Good thing you weren't behind a brick wall.... -- Chuck
Link Posted: 5/5/2003 8:40:43 PM EDT
Well, I'd laugh at ya; but I just did the same thing Saturday and perforated a barricade twice. Did you know that Santa Barbara SS109 travels nicely through 4" of pine 2x4 with no yaw at all? Stability at the target not so good after that though...
Link Posted: 5/5/2003 8:55:21 PM EDT
Luckilly I learned that lesson shooting out a window with a pellet gun when I was 14 : ) I got out the spackel and nobody was the wiser (except me- it never happened again). SWEET PICTURE Vortex FH's are an amazing product.
Link Posted: 5/5/2003 9:32:12 PM EDT
Double taps to the barricade even?
Link Posted: 5/5/2003 9:38:13 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/5/2003 9:40:35 PM EDT by new-arguy]
The height of the ACOG to the bore line wont have a ting to do with this. Woulda been the same thing with irons, and Aimpoint, or an ACOG on the flat top. I can tell you one thing... If it were a brick wall, there would only be one hole! I doubt I'd of done it more than once. Im not sure if the rounds that went through the wood impacted? When I realized what I had done I corrected my mistake and made clean shots. Here's a picture of me commiting the error. [img]http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid60/pea4acf02baab7afec4955c00c16f92cb/fc3e8204.jpg[/img]
Link Posted: 5/5/2003 9:44:53 PM EDT
you didnt notice the rifle barking more sharply? i notice it when i shoot over plywood. I burn the wood, but so far no holes in it.
Link Posted: 5/5/2003 9:47:33 PM EDT
nope, didnt notice a thing...
Link Posted: 5/6/2003 8:23:28 AM EDT
SBR man. Sight to Barrel Relationship. Gotta be aware of that...
Link Posted: 5/6/2003 8:38:08 AM EDT
Originally Posted By John_Wayne777: SBR man. Sight to Barrel Relationship. Gotta be aware of that...
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Thank you Captain Obvious. [thinking]
Link Posted: 5/6/2003 10:11:26 AM EDT
In a stressful situation it might just be smarter to actually rest the barrel on the barricade, window, or car hood (as this way you know you will clear it). I know this will flag the weapon (in the case of a wall or window) but this really only matters in military situations (and in a military situation you will probably fire from 3-6 or more feet from the window to stay in the shadows. How often is a law enforcment officer going to have to worry about guys that surround an entire building? They are more likely to be closely grouped- making flagging less an issue. [b] It deffinitely looks a little harder than just remembering to clear the window when shooting at small game from the house. [/b]
Link Posted: 5/6/2003 12:22:09 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Chuck: Good thing you weren't behind a brick wall.... -- Chuck
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My thoughts exactly! Caution is also needed to hold the rifle upright when working corners. A canted rifle can put a round into the corner with a clear sight picture on the intended target. This is the drawback of a high sight plane.
Link Posted: 5/6/2003 12:34:14 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/6/2003 12:41:15 PM EDT by Green0]
"Caution is also needed to hold the rifle upright when working corners. A canted rifle can put a round into the corner with a clear sight picture on the intended target. This is the drawback of a high sight plane." Simple solution: CORNER LIKE YOU'VE GOT A PAIR! Afterall you're fighting NOT HIDING. If you have a partner use the high-low cornering method it will never result in rounds hitting the corner.
Link Posted: 5/6/2003 12:38:25 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Green0: "Caution is also needed to hold the rifle upright when working corners. A canted rifle can put a round into the corner with a clear sight picture on the intended target. This is the drawback of a high sight plane." Simple solution: CORNER LIKE YOU'VE GOT A PAIR! Afterall you're fighting NOT HIDING.
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see that's funny, i was taught to use cover when firing and not get shot. i was also taught to watch my muzzle. it only takes blowing one or two door jams to get your attention.
Link Posted: 5/6/2003 1:28:05 PM EDT
Funny story, and related to this topic (I SWEAR!). The scene: Towards the end of 1995, my unit 3ID 3/4 Cavalry is selected to participate in Operation Joint Endeavor as part of the new IFOR peacekeeping forces (weren't renamed SFOR until later). I am the driver of C41, platoon leader's tank, 4th platoon, C troop. The Squadron is deployed in a massive, whirlwind training exercise to first Hohenfels (maneuver training area) and then Grafenhohr (gunnery training area) for some final training before deployment. Needless to say, by the time we hit the tank range at Graf, we were exhausted. The first stage of a tank gunnery run has the tanks pulling forward and backwards in fighting positions in which you can have the tank completely below the level of the ground, with only the sights exposed: "Turret down", and allow you to fire once you pull up (on to a higher plateau) and expose the turret: "hull down". Basically it is a BIG foxhole. On the normal Graf ranges, the fighting positions are made of concrete and really well mapped out and cleared, but since we were training to deploy, we were set up on a range that had NOT been pre-prepared, for realism. The engineer batallion dug us the fighting positions earlier in the day. We proceed through the day fire without incident (except for enjoying the pretty sparkles that .50 BMG API rounds produce on impact), and begin the night-fire. Shortly before they were scheduled to go downrange, the platoon sergeant's tank C44 breaks (I don't remember how exactly). My tank finished up early, and the Lt. volunteers our tank to the crew so they can qualify. Not trusting anyone else with "my" tank, I volunteer to drive with the crew (instead of sleeping). Now, as a driver, you have to know how far to pull up and back, or you will expose more of the tank than would be safe in battlefield conditions. During the DAY this is obvious, as you can SEE, but during the night, it is SOP to use chem-lights staked on the back-side of the berm, and watch those through the crappy low-light scope we replace the center vision block with. We went down to the fighting position built for the Platoon Sgt's tank WAAAY over on the right side of the range, and got ready. We fire 2 engagements without incident, but when I pulled up for the third, my left side chem light vanishes. I think about this for a second and scream "WAIT!!" through the intercom, but the gunner fires anyway. There is a "WHAAANNG" sound, followed by the loader cursing loudly. Cease fire is called, I pull the tank back and we get out. The engineers had dug too deep to the left, giving an almost imperceptible cant to the tank, and when the gunner slewed the gun tube to engage the targets WAAAY over to the right, I was pulling up, and he buried the end of the 120mm gun tube into the 5 foot thick berm. And fired. The gunner could not SEE the berm, because of height over bore difference, and since I was tired, I did not remember what was behind that chem-light until it was too late. The loader had just sprained his wrist as a part on the breech had flown off and hit him. The end of the gun tube was all bent back like a banana peel on the bottom. A foot long section of the tube had bounced off the hull six inches in front of my driver's hatch and flown back over to land behind the tank. I still have it. [:)] All this because the M1A1 has a 3 foot height over bore difference [:D]
Link Posted: 5/6/2003 2:18:29 PM EDT
Originally Posted By 308wood:
Originally Posted By Green0: "Caution is also needed to hold the rifle upright when working corners. A canted rifle can put a round into the corner with a clear sight picture on the intended target. This is the drawback of a high sight plane." Simple solution: CORNER LIKE YOU'VE GOT A PAIR! Afterall you're fighting NOT HIDING.
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see that's funny, i was taught to use cover when firing and not get shot. i was also taught to watch my muzzle. it only takes blowing one or two door jams to get your attention.
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Yeah, I was always taught that cover was more important to not getting your ass shot off than bravado. Suit yourself greeno. Hope it works out for you.
Link Posted: 5/6/2003 2:36:20 PM EDT
Originally Posted By new-arguy: The height of the ACOG to the bore line wont have a ting to do with this. Woulda been the same thing with irons, and Aimpoint, or an ACOG on the flat top. I can tell you one thing... If it were a brick wall, there would only be one hole! I doubt I'd of done it more than once.
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Anyone who's trained with the AR in unorthodox shooting positions around cover has done the same thing. I know I have. Thanks for posting the pics. They are a good reminder.
Link Posted: 5/6/2003 3:18:38 PM EDT
Do you think it blasts the other way in Austrailia ? [noclue]
Link Posted: 5/6/2003 3:21:07 PM EDT
I don't remember where or when, but an FBI sniper did this with a bolt gun and a concrete wall. He was wondering why his shots weren't effective. I did something of the same at Graf, covered myself in orange paint from a 203 practice round. Of course everyone knew what happened when they see you with the paint all over you and everything else! Mark
Link Posted: 5/6/2003 4:04:19 PM EDT
But look how well I am using my cover!!! Hahaha! The real reason this happened is because I want to keep my gun behind cover too. I'd just hate it if it got shot! [rofl2]
Link Posted: 5/6/2003 4:37:20 PM EDT
Captain Obvious...[:E] Shooting is all about the fundamentals. Remembering and performing them properly wins gunfights. I put lots of rounds into barricades at Blackwater, so don't feel too bad. Instructors screaming "Wayne, did you just put a round into my FRESHLY PAINTED BARRICADE???"
Link Posted: 5/6/2003 4:37:57 PM EDT
I have to agree - this happens to anyone [:I] that does tac training... I have put a few 9mm rounds into barricades - trying to minimize my signature. I put a 7.62mm in a concrete wall [V] and have had th eluck as of yet not to do it with 5.56mm... I happens - best is to learn from it
Link Posted: 5/6/2003 5:02:07 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/7/2003 9:29:09 AM EDT by Green0]
"see that's funny, i was taught to use cover when firing and not get shot" The comment was supposed to be mostly humorous but there is some truth to it. (the way I see it- in urban battles where barricades and walls are cover- speed takes the day) I preffer to corner more aggressively than not and put my faith in the ability to take out OPFOR before they can shoot back. If they are too numerous to engage I just jump back behind the cover and grab a smoke (for artificial concealment) or fragmentation grenade if the enemy is within grenade range. [b]Of course this is all training not real so maybe I would just get myself killed in real life but either way I am not too worried about it. reminds me of a quote from the movie TOY STORY "Farewell my friends- I go to a better place."[/b]
Link Posted: 5/6/2003 5:02:43 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/6/2003 5:08:07 PM EDT by mark5pt56]
John Wayne777, No user info, John R? I can tell by "barrel sight relationship" that you've been there. Mark
Link Posted: 5/7/2003 7:00:31 AM EDT
Do you mean the R as in Russel? He was one of my instructors at BW. Ken Cashwell was the other one...
Link Posted: 5/7/2003 5:38:00 PM EDT
Yep, your shooting stance does look good, at least that is the best position that I can think off. A high height over bore can result in that, and yes it would of happened with any AR. But the high sights come from the straight line stock, and everyone likes that don't they? BTW, how did you do? More ACOG praising? Goofs and/or areas you were proud of in the course?
Link Posted: 5/7/2003 9:18:41 PM EDT
More praise for the ACOGs. That particular course had A LOT of targets, but only about half were supposed to be shot. It was very difficult to tell which were shoot and which were no shoot targets. Generally people think the magnification in the ACOG will help you only at longer ranges. Well, the furthest target in this course was about 30 yards. But the magnificatrion helped GREATLY. While iron site and dot site shooters were struggling to see if the targets were shoot or no shoot, magnified optic shooters were making the ID quicker and more positively. There were a lot of dead no shoots... but not from magnified ACOG users!
Link Posted: 5/8/2003 4:49:35 AM EDT
Sweet!
Link Posted: 5/8/2003 12:31:10 PM EDT
Went to the range today and on purpose shot though some thin particle board used as target holders, muzzle was almost touching board. Left a perfect vortex just like in the pictures. However the CONCUSSION WAS INCREDIBLE, I've never experienced a flash-bang grenade before but thats what I was thinking after I shot a few rounds though the board. Neil Its amazing you didn't feel this after your first shot through the barrier, must have been caught up in the moment.
Link Posted: 5/14/2003 8:27:14 AM EDT
Originally Posted By new-arguy: While iron site and dot site shooters were struggling to see if the targets were shoot or no shoot, magnified optic shooters were making the ID quicker and more positively.
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Well, not ALL iron/dot shooters were having trouble, slow, and hitting GG's.... [;)][:D]
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