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Posted: 4/30/2003 10:10:47 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/30/2003 5:14:29 PM EDT by gunnagitcha]
Has anyone had any experience with Walter Birdsong and his Black T finish. He has reasonable rates but I want to get some opinions from people who have used this finish before I send my stuff.
THX
Brent
Link Posted: 4/30/2003 10:32:33 AM EDT
I have no experience with Black-T but heard it is the best baked-on finish. Just stay away from GunKote finish I have a upper done with that not very durable! Hope this help.
Link Posted: 4/30/2003 10:45:52 AM EDT
THX for the heads up. I contacted a refinisher in Painfield Ill. and they wanted 24 dollars per mag for GunKote finish. I thought that price was way out of line, since I am going to do 15 mags. Birdsong wants a third of that if I am going to do 15. I can't do them myself for that. Plus I can't do that type of finish myself. Thx
Link Posted: 4/30/2003 4:45:41 PM EDT
I had my stainless Marlin 1895 Guide Gun done in this finish just a month ago. Looks great, and is some very slick feeling stuff. No indication on how it might wear so far, but the gunsmith who sent it out for me stated he talked to the guy at Birdsong for like 2 hours and knew more than he ever wanted to about it. He said it actually permiates the pores in the metal, so even if it wears off, its lubricating properties are still there. He also said it's virtually impossible to get anything with this coating on it to rust. Birdsong does this coating for alot of Alaskan guides' rifles, and they all love it.
Link Posted: 4/30/2003 5:12:51 PM EDT
I talked to Birdsong himself today for about fifteen minutes. He took the time to tell me about the whole process. I can't say that for most of the refinishers I have talked to. Most of them do not do it in house anyway. They send it out to guys like Birdsong and Checkmate. I have only heard positive comments about the Black T finish. I am going to go with it. I can't beat 8 dollars per AR-10 mag. Thx
Link Posted: 4/30/2003 11:05:16 PM EDT
You may want to check into the Ceramic-T finish. I don't know what the price difference is, if any, but it is very hard and much more durable than the regular Black-T. His Green-T looks pretty good, too.
Link Posted: 5/1/2003 3:19:48 AM EDT
The last I heard his Ceramic T was still in the experimental stages and was not yet ready for mass production. Something to do with the little ceramic balls not being to spec or something. If someone has talked to Mr Birdsong recently please update us.
Link Posted: 5/1/2003 4:30:49 PM EDT
I had the Black-T finish applied to a Remington 700 SS barrel and action a few years ago. It still looks great and is very easy to clean (little fouling).
Link Posted: 5/1/2003 9:11:07 PM EDT
Anybody have a website or link for Mr. Birdsong?
Link Posted: 5/1/2003 10:47:03 PM EDT
I do not think that he has a website but here is his info: Walter Birdsong & Associates 1435 Monterey Rd Florence MS 39073-9748 601-939-7448
Link Posted: 5/2/2003 4:00:36 AM EDT
Link Posted: 5/2/2003 7:42:20 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/2/2003 7:43:03 AM EDT by SanchoPanza]
My pre-ban Bushmaster, with 2 uppers (Colt 1/7 HBAR & A2 barrels) were refinished by him in two-tone Green-T & Black-T. I'm well satisfied. He charged ME $150, for the rifle, two 30 rd mags, and $5 each for 3 additional mags. Your price may vary, as I know one of his best friends. Now, if he just would develop GREY-T for my Colt...
Link Posted: 5/2/2003 8:21:17 AM EDT
Originally Posted By MSTN: BIRDSONG DOES A NICE JOB WITH A TWO-TONE BLACK AND GREEN, ALSO. WES GRAT [URL]MSTN.BIZ[/URL]
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I am having my Springfield TRP finishe din this manner. I love Birdsong's finish it is slick and as durable as it can be. I have a SIG P226 finsihed in his green-T, it has held up to a lot of holster and shooting wear.
Link Posted: 5/2/2003 11:52:47 AM EDT
I had Walter Black T a Ruger 77 .458 Winny almost 20 years ago and it looks as good today as the day I got it back from him. The only wear has been on the bolt body and magzine follower. Since he did the work, a conservative guess would be that it has had between 800 and 1200 rounds put through it. It some good stuff and Walter is a heck of a nice guy to work with.
Link Posted: 5/10/2003 4:00:33 PM EDT
I had a Para Ordnance pistol done in Black T several years ago and can't say enough good about the finish. Slicker'n snot on a door knob, extremely durable, optically pleasing. Regretably, the Para turned out to be a piece of ka-ka. Thus, the gun, and the finish along with it, went bye-bye.
Link Posted: 5/10/2003 4:02:57 PM EDT
I had a Para Ordnance pistol done in Black T several years ago and can't say enough good about the finish. Slicker'n snot on a door knob, extremely durable, optically pleasing. Regretably, the Para turned out to be a piece of ka-ka. Thus, the gun, and the finish along with it, went bye-bye. Caution: The finish does take up some tolerances so, if you are going to have any gunsmithing done, have the finishing done FIRST.
Link Posted: 5/10/2003 4:30:43 PM EDT
M4Commando- Sorry to hear you had a bad experience with GunKote. I have been applying GunKote for 8 years and have rarely had a problem with durability. It the firearm is prepped properly, it is a very durable finish. But it takes a little experience to get it right. Birdsong turns out a great product too. Thanks, Lee [url]www.thearmsroom.com[/url]
Link Posted: 5/11/2003 1:26:50 AM EDT
Originally Posted By MSTN: [BLACK-T] IS NOT THE HARDEST FINISH OUT THERE, OF COURSE. BUT IT IS SLICK AS CAN BE! BIRDSONG DOES A NICE JOB WITH A TWO-TONE BLACK AND GREEN, ALSO. WES GRAT [URL]MSTN.BIZ[/URL]
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So, what [i]is[/i] the hardest finish out there? I thought Black-T was it. What is the most scratch-resistant finish?
Link Posted: 5/11/2003 2:46:33 AM EDT
The hardest finish out there (for firearms) is hard chrome.
Link Posted: 5/11/2003 9:00:52 AM EDT
Originally Posted By DevL: The hardest finish out there (for firearms) is hard chrome.
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I thought hard chrome was used exclusively for chamber & bore hardening. Is it also applied as an external finish? If not, then what is the hardest exterior finish.
Link Posted: 5/11/2003 10:03:09 AM EDT
Yes it is a frequently applied exterior finish. Try Tripp Research or Accurate Plating and Weaponry for companies that specialize in hard chrome as an after market finish.
Link Posted: 5/11/2003 10:46:29 AM EDT
Originally Posted By DevL: Yes it is a frequently applied exterior finish. Try Tripp Research or Accurate Plating and Weaponry for companies that specialize in hard chrome as an after market finish.
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I had a 1911 done by AP&W in 93 and it was impressive! After 22,000 rounds the rails still looked like they'd just been broken in and I couldn't even measure the wear. I wore out the original Sprinfield Armory slide which was not hard chromed and bought another. The next 1911 I build is getting the frame hard chromed by them and possibly the slide too.
Link Posted: 5/11/2003 11:12:44 AM EDT
Originally Posted By DevL: Yes it is a frequently applied exterior finish. Try Tripp Research or Accurate Plating and Weaponry for companies that specialize in hard chrome as an after market finish.
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The Tripp website is IMPRESSIVE... I'm going to have them hard chrome the slide and do the poly coat on the frame of my old Sig P220. Devl, Thanks for the tip. ww
Link Posted: 5/11/2003 10:45:31 PM EDT
Alright... What is the hardest, most scratch-resistant black/charcoal-colored finish? I keep hearing wonderful things about Ceramic Black-T, but it hasn't materialized as of yet.
Link Posted: 5/12/2003 2:38:26 AM EDT
With black finishes it gets a bit more tricky. There are some finishes that are very hard but brittle ceramic and can chip and crack over time. There are finishes that are quite hard but do not resist corrosion well. The most corrosion reisitant finishes are softer like Black T. Many companies are going to a parkerized base and applying the soft stuff over the top as the polymer will get into the park just like oil does and hold it better. Then you have black chrome which is a very hard black finish but not very corrosion resistant. Its a good decorative finish but real good utility wise. NP3 is a combination of electroless nickle and teflon that has a medium grey semi gloss appearance. Its harder than a straight teflon but its also not black or matte. There is boron carbide which is a ceramic. In non dynamic stress applications like high pressure water nozzles its black, resists corrosion and holds up well. It does not scratch easily either. In fact its harder than hard chrome. However it will begin to fracture from the rigors of a firearm and crack on a microscopic level and allow corrosion to form in these cracks and then it begins to chip and rack and peel away. I have not tried it but I was considering getting a firearm hard chromed and then having the boron carbide applied over the top of that to make it black. This was just WAY too expensive of an experiment for me to undertake and I dropped the idea. I could not find anyone who would guarantee a boron carbide finish over hard chrome anyway.
Link Posted: 5/12/2003 7:39:52 PM EDT
Originally Posted By DevL: With black finishes it gets a bit more tricky. There are some finishes that are very hard but brittle ceramic and can chip and crack over time. There are finishes that are quite hard but do not resist corrosion well. The most corrosion reisitant finishes are softer like Black T. Many companies are going to a parkerized base and applying the soft stuff over the top as the polymer will get into the park just like oil does and hold it better. Then you have black chrome which is a very hard black finish but not very corrosion resistant. Its a good decorative finish but real good utility wise. NP3 is a combination of electroless nickle and teflon that has a medium grey semi gloss appearance. Its harder than a straight teflon but its also not black or matte. There is boron carbide which is a ceramic. In non dynamic stress applications like high pressure water nozzles its black, resists corrosion and holds up well. It does not scratch easily either. In fact its harder than hard chrome. However it will begin to fracture from the rigors of a firearm and crack on a microscopic level and allow corrosion to form in these cracks and then it begins to chip and rack and peel away. I have not tried it but I was considering getting a firearm hard chromed and then having the boron carbide applied over the top of that to make it black. This was just WAY too expensive of an experiment for me to undertake and I dropped the idea. I could not find anyone who would guarantee a boron carbide finish over hard chrome anyway.
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I'm assuming you meant to state that black chrome was [i]not[/i] good finish for utilitarian purposes...? In any case, then, how does Duracoat rate? I've been looking for a finish that has the best combination of scratch/wear & corrosion resistance, & which is available in charcoal/black color. Naturally, this would have to be a tall order, since almost nothing I've ever wanted has been easy &/or cheap.
Link Posted: 5/12/2003 9:25:55 PM EDT
Yes there is supposed to be a "not" in there.[:I] Are you wanting to coat aluminum, regular or stainless steel?
Link Posted: 5/13/2003 11:11:39 PM EDT
Originally Posted By DevL: Yes there is supposed to be a "not" in there.[:I] Are you wanting to coat aluminum, regular or stainless steel?
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Basically, I'm looking at doing the FAL, AR, AK, shotgun (when I finally get one) etc., so we're talking chiefly Al & Steel, as well as a few sundry composite/plastic peices (though, I could just as well exclude these from the treatment).
Link Posted: 5/13/2003 11:57:32 PM EDT
The great thing about Birdsong is that he answers the phone. Bad thing about it is that the phone bill goes up. He talks about anything and everything. That's why he is easy to deal with. No BS coming from him. I sent some stuffs to him during last December for refinishing. I got back it super fast like in two weeks after sending it out. They just wanted to reduce the work load before and after the Christmas holidays.
Link Posted: 5/14/2003 3:41:42 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/14/2003 3:42:23 AM EDT by DevL]
Honestly all the spray on finishes are soft compared to the plated finishes. You can parkerize regular steel but not stainless or aluminum. You can do a black nitide finish on stainless but not aluminum and you can anodize aluminum but not steel. You pretty much will have those as factory finishes and they are the best as far as hardness goes in black finishes. If you want more corrosion resistance and lubrication or you just want a uniform color and texture then get a spray on finish... I suggest Black T. If you just want a tougher finish you should stick to the factory black finishes or go matte hard chrome or NP3.
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