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Posted: 4/28/2018 11:14:29 PM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TEXASGUNGUY022003:
https://i.imgur.com/7VrwDgl.jpg https://i.imgur.com/huUh1F2.jpg https://i.imgur.com/hxS28Pf.jpg 
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Posted: 4/29/2018 6:11:24 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 78Staff]
[#2]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By cjwwd2:
Yes. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By cjwwd2:
Originally Posted By TEXASGUNGUY022003:
https://i.imgur.com/7VrwDgl.jpg https://i.imgur.com/huUh1F2.jpg https://i.imgur.com/hxS28Pf.jpg Little update on the H - swapped to A107's, 1.25 vs 1.0" height just feels better - running same on the Mod 0. Picked up some TMK's to try also. Plus showing off my new toy, finally ordered a Ray-Vin 
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Posted: 4/30/2018 3:46:28 PM EDT
[#3]
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Posted: 4/30/2018 4:32:51 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By SecretSquirell:
https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/204916/20180430_120803-530361.JPG Why no pics on your rifle?? |
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Posted: 4/30/2018 5:11:55 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Will816:
Man, did everybody buy these last September/October? The ratio of posts with approved cans has never been higher! I've got a pending date of 12/22 on my knurled can. Why no pics on your rifle?? Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Will816:
Originally Posted By SecretSquirell:
https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/204916/20180430_120803-530361.JPG Why no pics on your rifle?? Hint...look at my location. 
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Posted: 4/30/2018 5:43:57 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By SecretSquirell:
https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/204916/20180430_120803-530361.JPG |
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Posted: 4/30/2018 5:57:33 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By cjwwd2:
Fake news! Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By cjwwd2:
Originally Posted By SecretSquirell:
https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/204916/20180430_120803-530361.JPG 
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AR, USA
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Posted: 5/1/2018 9:42:57 AM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By lancecriminal86: So, maybe I missed it but story time on your Noveske bbl @5pt56 ? No real story behind it. Read every bit of information and searched high and low for a naked pic of a mod H OG noveske barrel to no avail. Couldn't find anything other than the original specs of a gov't profile which is what I understand the Nov. to originally be. Decided that if that wasn't the go to profile that I think the S-8 shop would have went with a medium profile barrel which is what mine is. Had 2 rounds in the same ragged hole this weekend with the first 8 shots out of the barrel. So for me it boiled down to wanting a correct barrel brand from original and have the "wrong" profile over having the correct profile and wrong brand barrel. With my choice I also had to sacrifice the correct collar as everyone likes to point out. 
Worth it..... Also in reading some of the recent posts and seeing the noveske cage codes on the bead blasted and FDE barrel, mine actually has the one cage code I think or something pretty darn close which would potentially say that my barrel is the same line but newest profile of that one. Obviously hard to confirm without seeing the rest of the barrel and even harder to talk to someone at Noveske about historical knowledge of their products from my experience. Especially since John's passing. |
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Posted: 5/1/2018 10:57:14 AM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 5pt56:
My apologies for my absenteeism! No real story behind it. Read every bit of information and searched high and low for a naked pic of a mod H OG noveske barrel to no avail. Couldn't find anything other than the original specs of a gov't profile which is what I understand the Nov. to originally be. Decided that if that wasn't the go to profile that I think the S-8 shop would have went with a medium profile barrel which is what mine is. Had 2 rounds in the same ragged hole this weekend with the first 8 shots out of the barrel. So for me it boiled down to wanting a correct barrel brand from original and have the "wrong" profile over having the correct profile and wrong brand barrel. With my choice I also had to sacrifice the correct collar as everyone likes to point out.
Worth it..... Also in reading some of the recent posts and seeing the noveske cage codes on the bead blasted and FDE barrel, mine actually has the one cage code I think or something pretty darn close which would potentially say that my barrel is the same line but newest profile of that one. Obviously hard to confirm without seeing the rest of the barrel and even harder to talk to someone at Noveske about historical knowledge of their products from my experience. Especially since John's passing. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 5pt56:
Originally Posted By lancecriminal86: So, maybe I missed it but story time on your Noveske bbl @5pt56 ? No real story behind it. Read every bit of information and searched high and low for a naked pic of a mod H OG noveske barrel to no avail. Couldn't find anything other than the original specs of a gov't profile which is what I understand the Nov. to originally be. Decided that if that wasn't the go to profile that I think the S-8 shop would have went with a medium profile barrel which is what mine is. Had 2 rounds in the same ragged hole this weekend with the first 8 shots out of the barrel. So for me it boiled down to wanting a correct barrel brand from original and have the "wrong" profile over having the correct profile and wrong brand barrel. With my choice I also had to sacrifice the correct collar as everyone likes to point out.
Worth it..... Also in reading some of the recent posts and seeing the noveske cage codes on the bead blasted and FDE barrel, mine actually has the one cage code I think or something pretty darn close which would potentially say that my barrel is the same line but newest profile of that one. Obviously hard to confirm without seeing the rest of the barrel and even harder to talk to someone at Noveske about historical knowledge of their products from my experience. Especially since John's passing. |
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AR, USA
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Posted: 5/1/2018 11:09:10 AM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By lancecriminal86: I'm working some stuff to provide answers to that. It looks to me like the barrels are actually serialized, as they have different numbers. I don't have access to the current SS Recon barrel's profile drawing, but if you wouldn't mind getting some harbor freight calipers and measuring the critical points then I'd have something to compare to. We might have a window to get a legit FDE Noveske barrel measured. 
Now I have no problem using my Starrett 798b's and getting all the measurements you need..
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Posted: 5/1/2018 11:38:12 AM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 5pt56:
I would most certainly mind getting harbor freight calipers! I'm not touchin' those stinkin' things.
Now I have no problem using my Starrett 798b's and getting all the measurements you need.. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 5pt56:
Originally Posted By lancecriminal86: I'm working some stuff to provide answers to that. It looks to me like the barrels are actually serialized, as they have different numbers. I don't have access to the current SS Recon barrel's profile drawing, but if you wouldn't mind getting some harbor freight calipers and measuring the critical points then I'd have something to compare to. We might have a window to get a legit FDE Noveske barrel measured.
Now I have no problem using my Starrett 798b's and getting all the measurements you need.. First number I do have, looks like forwards of the collar the barrel is ~.741" . It looks like our contact will have to pull the collar and handguard to get the 100% scoop on the profile, but if it happens we might have finally solved the mystery here. |
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Posted: 5/1/2018 12:56:54 PM EDT
[#12]
Wait, what? Seriously? A govt' profile barrel on an H? Call me skeptical.
Would make the thing freaking handy though. |
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Posted: 5/1/2018 5:50:40 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By JJREA:
Wait, what? Seriously? A govt' profile barrel on an H? Call me skeptical. Would make the thing freaking handy though. @Ankratz actually posted a long while back trying to get someone to caliper Noveske 16.1" Recon barrels, but I don't know if he got any results. |
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Posted: 5/2/2018 10:14:31 AM EDT
[#14]
I'm thinking about rerolling my Mod 1 style recce in a Holland type flavor. Maybe a 14" PRI tube to recess the AEM 5 a little more? Then maybe a recce rail or full length up top. With low rings how high is the scope centerline over bore when using something like the recce rail?
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Posted: 5/2/2018 1:22:26 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Outrider:
I'm thinking about rerolling my Mod 1 style recce in a Holland type flavor. Maybe a 14" PRI tube to recess the AEM 5 a little more? Then maybe a recce rail or full length up top. With low rings how high is the scope centerline over bore when using something like the recce rail?
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Posted: 5/2/2018 1:26:08 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By lancecriminal86: I think he meant the Noveske N4 barrels vs the Noveske SS. @Ankratz actually posted a long while back trying to get someone to caliper Noveske 16.1" Recon barrels, but I don't know if he got any results. |
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Posted: 5/2/2018 1:48:22 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By JJREA: I must be missing something. I read his post a couple of times and it sounds to me like he's saying a Mod H "OG", whatever that means, is a govt' profile. |
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AR, USA
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Posted: 5/2/2018 2:34:06 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By lancecriminal86: I think he meant the Noveske N4 barrels vs the Noveske SS. @Ankratz actually posted a long while back trying to get someone to caliper Noveske 16.1" Recon barrels, but I don't know if he got any results. Although there is some information that I have discovered through my massive hunt for the original barrel profile ( right or wrong I have no idea) that the originally built Mod H barrel had a larger profile barrel forward of the gas block and a smaller profile under the handguard which some have said suggests a gov't profile barrel that Noveske spun. Sadly, no one can talk to John to jog his memory and understand those finer and more specific details. It would certainly be odd to me however if you look at the time period, there wasn't exactly a ton of or school of thought away from the "typical" gov't profile barrel like we have today. I don't know. I can also see it being done to cause less grief at first glance that someone had a different barrel to keep the brass off your ass for using unauthorized parts. So karma has such a great sense of humor. I bought my Starrett's in 2013. Don't recall changing the battery ever so I thought "let me proactively change it" and sure enough, I gorilla'd the battery cover and broke them. maybe I should get a pair of harbor freights after all. This is the measurement even with the end of the handguard and behind the collar. I'll run up to my buddies and break down the rifle and get measurements using his calipers soon.
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Posted: 5/2/2018 3:13:04 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By JJREA:
I must be missing something. I read his post a couple of times and it sounds to me like he's saying a Mod H "OG", whatever that means, is a govt' profile. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By JJREA:
Originally Posted By lancecriminal86: I think he meant the Noveske N4 barrels vs the Noveske SS. @Ankratz actually posted a long while back trying to get someone to caliper Noveske 16.1" Recon barrels, but I don't know if he got any results. Whatever the case is, it's very likely the Holland Noveske barrels were indeed a special profile that differs from their standard Recon mediumish contour. With the measurement being ~.741" in front of the collar, it already diverges from Allen Engineering's specs for the AEM5 which actually have the space between muzzle and collar step as .725" +/- .005" And according to Noveske themselves their standard Recon barrels are .725" in front of the gas block seat. So yeah, you'd have to get the collar and barrel turned down to like .700 or something to mount the collar, and have a narrow diameter inside the collar on the back portion to support the collar. |
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AR, USA
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Posted: 5/2/2018 3:24:37 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By lancecriminal86: I think he was thinking he'd heard the H had a gov't profile for whatever reason but then thought about it and figured the S8 shop wouldn't have gone with that, which is correct. I don't think Noveske started offering the N4 profile barrels until sometime after 2007 anyways. Whatever the case is, it's very likely the Holland Noveske barrels were indeed a special profile that differs from their standard Recon mediumish contour. With the measurement being ~.741" in front of the collar, it already diverges from Allen Engineering's specs for the AEM5 which actually have the space between muzzle and collar step as .725" +/- .005" And according to Noveske themselves their standard Recon barrels are .725" in front of the gas block seat. So yeah, you'd have to get the collar and barrel turned down to like .700 or something to mount the collar, and have a narrow diameter inside the collar on the back portion to support the collar. gonna need an interpreter soon and looks like I know the man for the job.
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PA, USA
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Posted: 5/2/2018 3:33:19 PM EDT
[#21]
Nikiel09 already pulled apart a legit mod H as i asked like a year ago, and it was SPR contour not Govt. I have pics somewhere. he did it back when we asked about non Nov marked barrels.
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Posted: 5/2/2018 3:43:40 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By HaveBlue83:
Nikiel09 already pulled apart a legit mod H as i asked like a year ago, and it was SPR contour not Govt. I have pics somewhere. he did it back when we asked about non Nov marked barrels. But yeah, this is why there was going to have to be a custom group buy from Noveske because the barrels are super skinny compared to the actual H barrels in front of the gas block. Unfortunately I think that group buy fizzled out when the proposed cost was like $600+ a pop, which is well north of the already high Noveske price. Add to that the cost of getting it coated FDE. |
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AR, USA
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Posted: 5/2/2018 3:43:59 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By HaveBlue83:
Nikiel09 already pulled apart a legit mod H as i asked like a year ago, and it was SPR contour not Govt. I have pics somewhere. he did it back when we asked about non Nov marked barrels. And when you say SPR contour you mean medium contour, correct? Just trying to be specific so when I pull blueprints they are the correct ones... |
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Posted: 5/2/2018 3:48:22 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 5pt56:
Yeah I don't think anyone here is saying it's gov't profile. And when you say SPR contour you mean medium contour, correct? Just trying to be specific so when I pull blueprints they are the correct ones... Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 5pt56:
Originally Posted By HaveBlue83:
Nikiel09 already pulled apart a legit mod H as i asked like a year ago, and it was SPR contour not Govt. I have pics somewhere. he did it back when we asked about non Nov marked barrels. And when you say SPR contour you mean medium contour, correct? Just trying to be specific so when I pull blueprints they are the correct ones... 
And here's the Noveske tubes that have .741"-ish profile out front. Fatter even than a Mk12 spec technically. 
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Posted: 5/2/2018 5:35:53 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 5pt56:
Correct in your interpretation. I did in fact mean Noveske N4 vs. SS. My brain works faster than my fingers at times. Although there is some information that I have discovered through my massive hunt for the original barrel profile ( right or wrong I have no idea) that the originally built Mod H barrel had a larger profile barrel forward of the gas block and a smaller profile under the handguard which some have said suggests a gov't profile barrel that Noveske spun. Sadly, no one can talk to John to jog his memory and understand those finer and more specific details. It would certainly be odd to me however if you look at the time period, there wasn't exactly a ton of or school of thought away from the "typical" gov't profile barrel like we have today. I don't know. I can also see it being done to cause less grief at first glance that someone had a different barrel to keep the brass off your ass for using unauthorized parts. So karma has such a great sense of humor. I bought my Starrett's in 2013. Don't recall changing the battery ever so I thought "let me proactively change it" and sure enough, I gorilla'd the battery cover and broke them. maybe I should get a pair of harbor freights after all. This is the measurement even with the end of the handguard and behind the collar. I'll run up to my buddies and break down the rifle and get measurements using his calipers soon.
http://i.imgur.com/gbHR2yF.jpg But, like I said, it may have been different with noveske. I do know that I recall people building recce's with noveske barrels and they had their own special contour. I think they did one that was tapered and went down to a hair under .750 behind the gas block. Wasn't that the light recce profile? Maybe that's what you meant by govt'. It wasn't really a govt' profile because it started out a lot fatter and tapered. Anyways.... Just my thoughts on that..... I found some pics on google... Light Recce: 
Recon: 
Both of those seem like a good idea to me. As they are definitely wider than a govt' under the handguards but not nearly as thick as an HBAR. My WOA barrel on my recce is much like the Mod H one pictured above. The profile is about the same size as the gas block, starting at the gas block and going back..... Which I think was much more the norm back then for competition / precision builds. |
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Posted: 5/2/2018 7:19:16 PM EDT
[#26]
Mod H doesn’t have to wear the vortex for much longer, ordered one of the ts30a2’s from leupold today. They said they usually ship out the next day so hopefully soon.
 Attached File |
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AR, USA
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Posted: 5/2/2018 10:18:01 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By JJREA: I'm no expert on any of this, so hopefully it doesn't come across like that, or Jerky. But I kind of think things were opposite of what you are saying.... In the commercial world. I'm not very versed on what Noveske was doing around then... I never owned a noveske anything. However, if you go in the early 2000's thread you might see where I'm coming from..... I'm not sure exactly what time period you are talking about but with the exception of an actual M-4 or a 6920, govt' profile wasn't really the norm among more commercial AR makers. In fact, to me it seems like HBars were the norm and we started seeing these oddball profiles BECAUSE of the SPR program. I can recall looking at the RRA brochure for years before they brought out a govt' profiled M4 barrel. It was always HBARs before that and ADCO started doing reprofiling back then because people were like, why can't I get a freaking govt' profile?........ But, like I said, it may have been different with noveske. I do know that I recall people building recce's with noveske barrels and they had their own special contour. I think they did one that was tapered and went down to a hair under .750 behind the gas block. Wasn't that the light recce profile? Maybe that's what you meant by govt'. It wasn't really a govt' profile because it started out a lot fatter and tapered. Anyways.... Just my thoughts on that..... I found some pics on google... Light Recce: https://cdn6.bigcommerce.com/s-oodd2dz/products/327/images/636/noveske_lrlp_barrel__04617.1413406268.500.659.jpg?c=2 Recon: http://www.primaryarms.com/SSP%20Applications/NetSuite%20Inc.%20-%20SCA%20Mont%20Blanc/Development/img/NV07000055_00.jpg Both of those seem like a good idea to me. As they are definitely wider than a govt' under the handguards but not nearly as thick as an HBAR. My WOA barrel on my recce is much like the Mod H one pictured above. The profile is about the same size as the gas block, starting at the gas block and going back..... Which I think was much more the norm back then for competition / precision builds. However, I don't know commercial anything from early 2000's. The information I was going by and what I provided was all mil based. I never ran an Hbar ( that I noticed, paid attention to or recall anyways) and ran gov't profile barrels, 14.5, mod 1, or barrels on A2 upper receivers for the most part. ( I guess some of those could have been Hbar now that I think about it) 99'-2007 for reference. I have a noveske barrel from around 2002 or 2003 still and it has their switchblock on it and am somewhat versed on Noveske barrels. I own several. I guess that is neither here nor there. My Mod Holland now has the barrel that is your second pic. It's the Noveske Recon medium contour. |
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AR, USA
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Posted: 5/3/2018 12:30:56 AM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By lancecriminal86: No, Nikiel09's was a fat fucker close to Mk12 profile but 16": https://i.imgur.com/0tQjZIh.jpg And here's the Noveske tubes that have .741"-ish profile out front. Fatter even than a Mk12 spec technically. https://i.imgur.com/b3AJTy2.jpg 1 inch behind gas block .782 1/2 2 inches .785 3 inches .790 4 inches .793 5 inches .796 6 inches. 803 7 inches skipped 8 inches .980 From front of gas block toward muzzle. 1 inch forward of gas block .724 2 inches .7236 3 inches .7235 Custom collar .686 from front of collar to barrel threads. A couple caveats. If you want to be precise, all measurements are taken over top a properly coated layer of FDE Cerakote. I would also discount from the collar to the middle since this was turned down by ADCO for the collar step or shoulder. I'm not sure how much they turned down the front of the barrel but I know they didnt touch any other part of the barrel. Let me know of you have any other questions or need me to clarify my measurements. 
This shows the step at the gas block. 
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OR, USA
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Posted: 5/3/2018 1:12:36 PM EDT
[#29]
All these barrel images are getting posted without an explanation of what exactly we are looking at here...
This FDE-coated bbl - is this a real-deal Mod H you're pulled apart or what? I'm a little confused now. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 5pt56:
Okay, as requested. I used a micrometer and made sure each measurement was at the centerline of the barrel and center of each inch. I measured everything off the gas block fore and aft. Sorry for the crappy pics but I'm also typing out all the specs so there isn't any confusion of my chicken scratch on the barrel itself. 1 inch behind gas block .782 1/2 2 inches .785 3 inches .790 4 inches .793 5 inches .796 6 inches. 803 7 inches skipped 8 inches .980 From front of gas block toward muzzle. 1 inch forward of gas block .724 2 inches .7236 3 inches .7235 Custom collar .686 from front of collar to barrel threads. A couple caveats. If you want to be precise, all measurements are taken over top a properly coated layer of FDE Cerakote. I would also discount from the collar to the middle since this was turned down by ADCO for the collar step or shoulder. I'm not sure how much they turned down the front of the barrel but I know they didnt touch any other part of the barrel. Let me know of you have any other questions or need me to clarify my measurements. http://i.imgur.com/pnV37br.jpg http://i.imgur.com/Zjg5Jtb.jpg This shows the step at the gas block. http://i.imgur.com/5DixAIn.jpg |
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Posted: 5/3/2018 1:55:22 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By mrsaturn7085:
All these barrel images are getting posted without an explanation of what exactly we are looking at here... This FDE-coated bbl - is this a real-deal Mod H you're pulled apart or what? I'm a little confused now. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By mrsaturn7085:
All these barrel images are getting posted without an explanation of what exactly we are looking at here... This FDE-coated bbl - is this a real-deal Mod H you're pulled apart or what? I'm a little confused now. Originally Posted By 5pt56:
Okay, as requested. I used a micrometer and made sure each measurement was at the centerline of the barrel and center of each inch. I measured everything off the gas block fore and aft. Sorry for the crappy pics but I'm also typing out all the specs so there isn't any confusion of my chicken scratch on the barrel itself. 1 inch behind gas block .782 1/2 2 inches .785 3 inches .790 4 inches .793 5 inches .796 6 inches. 803 7 inches skipped 8 inches .980 From front of gas block toward muzzle. 1 inch forward of gas block .724 2 inches .7236 3 inches .7235 Custom collar .686 from front of collar to barrel threads. A couple caveats. If you want to be precise, all measurements are taken over top a properly coated layer of FDE Cerakote. I would also discount from the collar to the middle since this was turned down by ADCO for the collar step or shoulder. I'm not sure how much they turned down the front of the barrel but I know they didnt touch any other part of the barrel. Let me know of you have any other questions or need me to clarify my measurements. http://i.imgur.com/pnV37br.jpg http://i.imgur.com/Zjg5Jtb.jpg This shows the step at the gas block. http://i.imgur.com/5DixAIn.jpg I am working to have someone mic a legit Mod H Noveske barrel. Thus far we know it was a different profile, because in front of the collar it's .741" . I strongly suspect under the handguard it will be the same tapered profile as above, but the are in front of the gas block is the big question on the Mod H barrels. |
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PA, USA
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Posted: 5/3/2018 2:50:53 PM EDT
[#31]
my shot out WOA has the same looking profile as my new bison does:
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Posted: 5/3/2018 3:01:30 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By HaveBlue83:
my shot out WOA has the same looking profile as my new bison does: https://s17.postimg.cc/93l0b6rsf/IMG_20180503_144706.jpg The only thing that makes me still scratch my head about Nikiel09's profile is it has a gentle shoulder/taper from the chamber, while it seems everyone else just has a that sharp chamber to straight SPR profile. PRI, Compass Lake, Centurion, etc. We still have no idea who made the non-Noveske barrel. I was starting to suspect someone just built a Holland clone and traded it out but there are still some hints it was an original, maybe. That being said, short of Noveske actually doing that run of legit Holland profile barrels, the Bison, WOA, PRI, CLE, Centurion, or Ballistic barrels should all be perfectly accepted for a clone Holland. |
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Posted: 5/3/2018 3:29:17 PM EDT
[Last Edit: JJREA]
[#33]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By lancecriminal86: When we asked Bison to bring back the 12th Model profile they beefed up to the SPR profile. They used to offer a much lighter "recon" profile that was closer to BA's TacGov, but now their Recon is the M4 family of Ops/AE profile and their SPR has the 12th model profile. The only thing that makes me still scratch my head about Nikiel09's profile is it has a gentle shoulder/taper from the chamber, while it seems everyone else just has a that sharp chamber to straight SPR profile. PRI, Compass Lake, Centurion, etc. We still have no idea who made the non-Noveske barrel. I was starting to suspect someone just built a Holland clone and traded it out but there are still some hints it was an original, maybe. That being said, short of Noveske actually doing that run of legit Holland profile barrels, the Bison, WOA, PRI, CLE, Centurion, or Ballistic barrels should all be perfectly accepted for a clone Holland. @5pt56 I think my point was that outside of the .mil govt' profiles weren't as prevalent. And if when they were building the Mod H and turned to commercial barrel makers, like noveske, I don't think a govt' profile would be the first choice or all that common. Especially since it's focus was a precision rifle. Now, having said that, I always thought it would be cool to build a precision build with a FF rail and see how it actually stacks up, accuracy wise. I'm not sure how light the PRI FF handguard is, but it seems like it would be lighter than a DD rail. Coupled with a lighter profile barrel, would really make a handy shooting precision gun, if it could pull it off. Now having said all that even further, Noveske's Recon and Light Recon profile seems like it would also be a heck of a lot lighter than our barrels. Those things are pigs. But shoot well.
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Posted: 5/3/2018 5:04:55 PM EDT
[#34]
Some snippets of new scoop on the Holland program:
Some were built by PRI, but many of the originals were built with parts ordered from places like Brownells and elsewhere while MSG Holland and one of the other guys behind it were deciding on what they wanted. Noveske, Douglas, and "other" barrels were used. This is part of why some are black, didn't come with Recce rails, don't have Noveske barrels, etc. Some were rebuilt from existing SPRs as mentioned. |
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AR, USA
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Posted: 5/3/2018 5:15:58 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By JJREA: Yep. My WOA is just like haveblue83's. Sharp cut. I notices that soft taper too on that other barrel posted. Not the norm I don't think. @5pt56 I think my point was that outside of the .mil govt' profiles weren't as prevalent. And if when they were building the Mod H and turned to commercial barrel makers, like noveske, I don't think a govt' profile would be the first choice or all that common. Especially since it's focus was a precision rifle. Now, having said that, I always thought it would be cool to build a precision build with a FF rail and see how it actually stacks up, accuracy wise. I'm not sure how light the PRI FF handguard is, but it seems like it would be lighter than a DD rail. Coupled with a lighter profile barrel, would really make a handy shooting precision gun, if it could pull it off. Now having said all that even further, Noveske's Recon and Light Recon profile seems like it would also be a heck of a lot lighter than our barrels. Those things are pigs. But shoot well. 
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AR, USA
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Posted: 5/3/2018 5:20:58 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 5pt56:
And I should have clarified. I do not think that they would have used a gov't profile but I shared the argument that was made to me. If the S8 shop folks were smart enough to recognize they needed a platform to do something different than the M4, I would most certainly think they would have looked at another profile. Thanks @lancecriminal86 for better articulating what the hell I'm trying to say. gonna need an interpreter soon and looks like I know the man for the job. |
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Posted: 5/3/2018 5:52:28 PM EDT
[#37]
Let's all just call a cease-fire and instead be excited about some of the Holland history we might soon be getting from one of the guys that designed/built them, and was right there with MSG Holland in the development of the original SPRs in the late 90s.
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OR, USA
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Posted: 5/3/2018 6:55:19 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By lancecriminal86:
No, he built a Mod H with a current commercial Noveske Recon barrel using a custom collar. I am working to have someone mic a legit Mod H Noveske barrel. Thus far we know it was a different profile, because in front of the collar it's .741" . I strongly suspect under the handguard it will be the same tapered profile as above, but the are in front of the gas block is the big question on the Mod H barrels. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By lancecriminal86:
No, he built a Mod H with a current commercial Noveske Recon barrel using a custom collar. I am working to have someone mic a legit Mod H Noveske barrel. Thus far we know it was a different profile, because in front of the collar it's .741" . I strongly suspect under the handguard it will be the same tapered profile as above, but the are in front of the gas block is the big question on the Mod H barrels. This has always been a bit of a gripe of mine with clone threads - something like this gets posted and some will no doubt immediately take it as gospel when as far as I can tell, it has nothing to do with the serialized, issued barrels. Where did the 0.741" measurement come from, by the way? Any images of this or are we just playing telephone with this one? As they say 'trust, but verify'. That's a big enough dimension over 0.725" that the collars would have likely needed lapping. Originally Posted By lancecriminal86:
Some snippets of new scoop on the Holland program: Some were built by PRI, but many of the originals were built with parts ordered from places like Brownells and elsewhere while MSG Holland and one of the other guys behind it were deciding on what they wanted. Noveske, Douglas, and "other" barrels were used. This is part of why some are black, didn't come with Recce rails, don't have Noveske barrels, etc. Some were rebuilt from existing SPRs as mentioned. Wasn't the RECCE rail added later upon request when it was quickly noticed that clip-on night sights didn't work without it? |
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Posted: 5/3/2018 7:01:21 PM EDT
[Last Edit: JJREA]
[#39]
I did not mean to offend. I did read your posts and noticed that it was someone else that suggested it to you. I was just trying to say I'm not sure where he was getting his info from and this is why I think he may be mistaken. I should've made that more clear. I wasn't trying to argue. I don't even know if I'm right. I just know of the trends I sort of saw at the time.
So no, I don't need to say "I'm right". What I do need to say is I'm sorry if that all came across like a know it all. I really was trying hard to not do that, but I guess I was unsuccessful. I do have my opinions and experience and may have talked to much about it. I must've said too much. I do find this particular subject pretty interesting though. Not even sure why other than the fact that I do remember thinking a lot that it would be nice if there was some kind of happy medium between a big fat HBAR and a govt' profile for a fighting gun that had some precision to it. Or actually for me it was for hunting back then. And then I started seeing the noveske barrels and was like AAAAAh, but never spent the dough to try a different barrel. Since the one I had shot real nice, even if it was a bit heavier than I would've liked. |
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Posted: 5/3/2018 11:03:47 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By lancecriminal86:
Some snippets of new scoop on the Holland program: Some were built by PRI, but many of the originals were built with parts ordered from places like Brownells and elsewhere while MSG Holland and one of the other guys behind it were deciding on what they wanted. Noveske, Douglas, and "other" barrels were used. This is part of why some are black, didn't come with Recce rails, don't have Noveske barrels, etc. Some were rebuilt from existing SPRs as mentioned. |
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PA, USA
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Posted: 5/4/2018 8:48:07 AM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By lancecriminal86:
Some snippets of new scoop on the Holland program: Some were built by PRI, but many of the originals were built with parts ordered from places like Brownells and elsewhere while MSG Holland and one of the other guys behind it were deciding on what they wanted. Noveske, Douglas, and "other" barrels were used. This is part of why some are black, didn't come with Recce rails, don't have Noveske barrels, etc. Some were rebuilt from existing SPRs as mentioned. explains the hodge podge. holland grabs 3-5 shot out mod 0, plays around, send to pri to duplicate, then send with completed rifles. bam. |
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Posted: 5/4/2018 10:03:43 AM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By HaveBlue83:
PAGE 1 worthy. explains the hodge podge. holland grabs 3-5 shot out mod 0, plays around, send to pri to duplicate, then send with completed rifles. bam. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By HaveBlue83:
Originally Posted By lancecriminal86:
Some snippets of new scoop on the Holland program: Some were built by PRI, but many of the originals were built with parts ordered from places like Brownells and elsewhere while MSG Holland and one of the other guys behind it were deciding on what they wanted. Noveske, Douglas, and "other" barrels were used. This is part of why some are black, didn't come with Recce rails, don't have Noveske barrels, etc. Some were rebuilt from existing SPRs as mentioned. explains the hodge podge. holland grabs 3-5 shot out mod 0, plays around, send to pri to duplicate, then send with completed rifles. bam. |
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Posted: 5/4/2018 10:11:00 AM EDT
[#43]
except just make sure it's an A1 lower.........
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Posted: 5/4/2018 12:27:02 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By mrsaturn7085:
Got it, so effectively, 'move along - nothing to see here' in terms of actual clone-correct information (for the time being... at least). This has always been a bit of a gripe of mine with clone threads - something like this gets posted and some will no doubt immediately take it as gospel when as far as I can tell, it has nothing to do with the serialized, issued barrels. Where did the 0.741" measurement come from, by the way? Any images of this or are we just playing telephone with this one? As they say 'trust, but verify'. That's a big enough dimension over 0.725" that the collars would have likely needed lapping. I'm still not sold on the barrels being anything but black unless rattle-canned by the actual guy carrying the thing - the Noveske shots where they appear FDE match the color of my stainless barrel after it was bead blasted and shot a bunch. Not a single one of those pictures looks like Cerakote given the amount of light they all seem to reflect. Wasn't the RECCE rail added later upon request when it was quickly noticed that clip-on night sights didn't work without it? Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By mrsaturn7085:
Originally Posted By lancecriminal86:
No, he built a Mod H with a current commercial Noveske Recon barrel using a custom collar. I am working to have someone mic a legit Mod H Noveske barrel. Thus far we know it was a different profile, because in front of the collar it's .741" . I strongly suspect under the handguard it will be the same tapered profile as above, but the are in front of the gas block is the big question on the Mod H barrels. This has always been a bit of a gripe of mine with clone threads - something like this gets posted and some will no doubt immediately take it as gospel when as far as I can tell, it has nothing to do with the serialized, issued barrels. Where did the 0.741" measurement come from, by the way? Any images of this or are we just playing telephone with this one? As they say 'trust, but verify'. That's a big enough dimension over 0.725" that the collars would have likely needed lapping. Originally Posted By lancecriminal86:
Some snippets of new scoop on the Holland program: Some were built by PRI, but many of the originals were built with parts ordered from places like Brownells and elsewhere while MSG Holland and one of the other guys behind it were deciding on what they wanted. Noveske, Douglas, and "other" barrels were used. This is part of why some are black, didn't come with Recce rails, don't have Noveske barrels, etc. Some were rebuilt from existing SPRs as mentioned. Wasn't the RECCE rail added later upon request when it was quickly noticed that clip-on night sights didn't work without it? Info is coming from one of our resident Mod H users who just doesn't spend time on Arf anymore, but who previously sourced much of what we know about the Holland. Said member currently is somewhere at a course at which the guy who worked side-by-side with MSG Holland on both the SPR program and later the Holland uppers/conversions is working, and when he gets snippets of time he sneaks over to talk about SPRs and Hollands with the guy. The barrels and parts of the Holland program are absolutely a hodgepodge as shown in pics, and now from a guy that knew first-hand because he literally was building the uppers at the SOTIC armory. So when I say "there were FDE Noveske barrels" that's exactly what I mean. Some could have been just bead blasted, but I've seen pics showing very specifically that they have FDE coating. I can tell the difference between FDE and blasted stainless. I'll see if I can sanitize the pics to get them posted. As to the collars, yeah I'd bet they had to open up the collars to fit the .74" profile in front of the step, and I'd bet the profile from gas block seat to collar step is like .745", maybe .749". It sounded like getting the collar to slide forwards without fucking up the finish was going to be a PITA but again, I'm standing by to see if it can happen. At the very least we should be able to get a pic with the handguard off. |
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OR, USA
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Posted: 5/4/2018 12:57:59 PM EDT
[#45]
Much appreciated - also forgive the tone in advance, I'm a very blunt person, but I'm really not an asshole, I promise
I realize the 'verify' part is incredibly difficult coming from my experience making what essentially became the official Mk14/EBR clone parts list for the M14/M1A guys. I learned very early on to basically reject anything you can't prove 100% because once false information gets out, it is damn near impossible to stop it from spreading. Case in point here, Gen 1 vs. Gen 3 ACE stock on the Mod H. Looking forward to whatever you can get out of your buddy - given the information is a minimum of 15 years old at this point, he's probably the most reliable source there is. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By lancecriminal86: The "verify" part sometimes requires strategery, as to not throw anyone under the bus who is trying to hook us up with info. Some folks get butthurt about pics coming out of armories because they were "that SNCO" that nobody likes. We've had guys in the Facebook group who legitimately were trying to report shit to Army CID and NCIS and shit, even when there was evidence the stuff came through DRMO or Gov Auctions. I have zero plans of blue falconing someone just to post pics of a barrel profile. Info is coming from one of our resident Mod H users who just doesn't spend time on Arf anymore, but who previously sourced much of what we know about the Holland. Said member currently is somewhere at a course at which the guy who worked side-by-side with MSG Holland on both the SPR program and later the Holland uppers/conversions is working, and when he gets snippets of time he sneaks over to talk about SPRs and Hollands with the guy. The barrels and parts of the Holland program are absolutely a hodgepodge as shown in pics, and now from a guy that knew first-hand because he literally was building the uppers at the SOTIC armory. So when I say "there were FDE Noveske barrels" that's exactly what I mean. Some could have been just bead blasted, but I've seen pics showing very specifically that they have FDE coating. I can tell the difference between FDE and blasted stainless. I'll see if I can sanitize the pics to get them posted. As to the collars, yeah I'd bet they had to open up the collars to fit the .74" profile in front of the step, and I'd bet the profile from gas block seat to collar step is like .745", maybe .749". It sounded like getting the collar to slide forwards without fucking up the finish was going to be a PITA but again, I'm standing by to see if it can happen. At the very least we should be able to get a pic with the handguard off. |
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Posted: 5/4/2018 12:59:35 PM EDT
[#46]
This is an FDE barrel. The Noveske tubes were serialized, it had a different number than the previously posted ones below. I'm probably being overly cautious and it probably doesn't matter but I blurred it. I don't have the other closuep pic of the handguard on my phone from this one but you can clearly see the FDE coating on the barrel.
Note the differing numbers on these two Noveske barrels.
With what was passed to me, I think Nikiel09's upper may have been among the few early ones that were built at SOTIC by Holland/Other Guy™, and once they decided what they liked, they had the rest done by PRI using the Noveske barrels and FDE parts. To me the below look like they probably were FDE barrels, but I'll let y'all decide. 
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Posted: 5/4/2018 4:16:32 PM EDT
[#47]
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OR, USA
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Posted: 5/4/2018 5:23:11 PM EDT
[Last Edit: mrsaturn7085]
[#48]
Quote HistoryYou've convinced me with the last one. Matte color and damage marks I'd expect from squeezing that collar on there I'd seen that picture before but hadn't noticed the barrel color. If I had to guess, it's Moly Resin (John Norrell's coating) or KG Gunkote; with a strong lean towards the former - this is the coating that Knight's was using on the NT-4 (or earlier name) suppressor at the time and it burned off with the same exact patina that is shown on the well-used Noveske barrel shots.
Cerakote existed, but they were just getting into gun coatings at the time, IIRC. |
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Posted: 5/4/2018 6:06:24 PM EDT
[#49]
Almost makes you wonder if they DID use govt' barrel a time or two.....
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Posted: 5/5/2018 3:39:46 PM EDT
[#50]
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