Thanks, I too have learned a lot from this forum about the AR platform. I just don't understand why some people ( and I ain't calling anyone out) will always say that there choice of whatever is better than tha other guys choice.That is what always gets the waters churning.  I understand that some companies will make a better product but maybe Windham will prove itself in the future as a great product for the price range that they offer their rifles.

As for Augee's post, it may have been 100% true, I just don't see how it fit in the OP's question. I read it as Texit asking if anyone owned a WW and what was their opinion on it.

One would have to be incredibly naive about how firearms work, and what they're made of to

follow that advice.  "Burn the throat out of your barrel.  If that doesn't destroy the rest of the

gun, it's wonderful".
Now, as for what one might expect at a particular price point, and how it might be inferior to

the wunderguns, what do we hold as "superior"?  Mostly QC, because otherwise, parts is

parts, and there is a material limit regarding what they can be made of.  There is a HUGE

deception going on these days about the 1 in 7 twist.  The AR platform was simply NOT

designed for those heavier bullets, and whether you have a WW or a LaRue, the heavier

bullets place very high stress on the bolt face, inevitably resulting in premature bolt failure.  

If the "premium" brands were actually trying to live up to their claims of wonderfulness, they

would be using larger dia. bolts, with more super duper material to support the higher back

thrust.  DO  THEY????  Oh, wait.  I have a low post count, so I can't know anything......

I picked up a WW MPC for about $850 OTD(my 2nd AR, the other being a Colt) about 2 months ago. I have put around 800 rounds through it with no problems. About 700 of those rounds were steel. It is accurate and has a nice tight finish. Does the MPC have the same specs as a Colt/BCM/DD? No, but needless to say I am just as happy with my WW as I am with my Colt. The WW goes bang every time I pull the trigger and have not had any problems with it thus far. You will not regret purchasing the WW. Buy with confidence.

That is not that harsh at all. Your gving it five minute breaks in between only 90 rounds. I could see if you had 15 full 30rd magazine with no cool down or did this

Unless I missed one, no malfunctions until magazine 28 of substained full auto fire... very impressive.

Just as an FYI -

That video is of a Colt RO921HB M4A1 Carbine, not a "standard" M4.

A standard M4 barrel of any manufacture, Colt, WW, DD, or whomever, will suffer catastrophic failure behind the FSB where the narrow diameter "flares" to .750.  



As a result of several catastrophic barrel failures as a result of heavy firing schedules experienced by SOF M4A1s, the M4A1 barrel was redesigned with a medium contour barrel, which resists heat longer, and stays cooler, as well as more evenly distributing eat along the entire barrel, allowing the M4A1 to continue to fire until catastrophic failure of the gas tube as displayed above, rather than catastrophic failure of the barrel after 600 or less rounds fired continuously on auto.  



The heavier barrel profile also resulted in more bolt bounce, requiring the "H" buffer to be changed to an "H2."  

::shrug:: doesn't matter, though - because parts is parts.

Nevermind, either that I would bet dollars to donuts that Windham is probably still using BoW's overgassed carbine gas port dimension that made everyone fear the harsh recoil impulse of carbine length gas systems for so long - coupled with a CAR buffer, and there's s good chance of bolt bounce occurring during automatic fire of the type in the video.  Auto is always far harsher on the weapon, and usually exposes minor flaws in the timing and balance of the operating system of the weapon that would never be noticed during semi-automatic fire, but are still less than ideal for the function of the weapon in the long run.  

I must've missed that American Rifleman article.  

Listen:

No one is saying the Windhams are bad rifles, no one's really "trashing them."  

The worst I've seen people say is ––––––––––->  "not impressed."  Or worse even - "eh, save a couple extra bucks for a Colt / BCM / LMT / DD," or even "pay less for a PSA."  

No one has said "Windham is crap!  Don't buy it!  It'll blow up in your face, and jam every other round!"  

The only trashing I see going on is from the "good enough" crowd trashing people who state that they're unimpressed, saying things like "they're just butt-hurt that my Windham is just as good as their xxx-brand expensive rifle!"

I assure, we're not - and my last LE6920 - I bought for $850.  

I realize that you're probably not going to be firing full auto, and the Windham would serve you well in an unlikely SHTF situation.  The old BoWs were not bad rifles, they were just nothing special.  Windham Weaponry has given every indication that they're more of the same.  Decent rifles, great for hobbyists, fine for entry level.  That's not trashing to me, it's simply stating an opinion.  

As far as I'm concerned, the Windham Weaponry products are 80% rifles at 70% prices, with 250% hype.

~Augee

So what is "Special", and in Five Trillion lifetimes, how is it actually distinguished???????
Who, but a manufacturer, with something to prove, actually abuses their rifles to the point of catastrophic failure, just to mark the point where that happened?
Shoooie!  If it lasts thru the first 500 rounds with no malfunctions, trust it, and get on with your life.

That's funny.  I feel the same way about Colt.  Everyone's got an opinion though.

edit:
I mean the hype part.  Decent all-around rifle, with a lot of hype.

Thanks for posting those pictures and the info is pretty interesting. You seem to be very knowledgeable.



Here are a few of the posts from the other popular AR forum in regards to the WW:





















Now those are just extreme examples. Most said spending a little more to go with a proven company would probably be a better decision.

These are the major differences I see in the WW and the “top tier” Colt, DD, BCM, LMT, etc:


Individual MPI/HPT tested bolt -  WW does batch testing

1/7 barrel that is MPI/HPT - WW 1/9 batch tested barrels

F marked FSB - WW A2  

Standard H buffer -  WW carbine buffer.

Stalked Castle nut – WW doesn’t

Sure I would rather have the individual test BCG and barrel, F FSB, 1/7 twist and is that worth the extra $200? Maybe. I don’t think it’s terrible advise for a new buyer to save an extra $200 or so to buy a Colt, DD, BCM, etc.

I just don’t believe that if you don’t it’s going to be THAT big of a deal, like others have made it out to be…

Friend has a WW nice rifle and he got a good price on it. Shoots great steel case, brass, 5.56 has not jammed I think it has about 500 rounds shot so far.

Ill bet the majority of people putting down any companies rifle are lucky if they put 1000 rds a year through their "high" quality rifle...bottom line until anything high end or low end is run hard your not gonna know..even high quality tested parts can fail.

I'm sure that there are "better" AR's than the Windham Weaponry products, and more expensive. At this point I wouldn't argue with your 80% rifle at 70% prices, although I would say that neither of us knows for sure about that 80% figure yet. More time has to pass before anyone knows how well WW products will hold up to thousands and thousands of rounds. It might turn out that it's more like 95% rifles at 70% prices. Or it may turn out that it's more like 60% rifles at 70% prices. We do know they're accurate. So it's really about longevity. I don't think you can predict that purely on the basis of the way components are tested - etc. A lot of it has to do with how carefully parts are made to precise tolerances, and how the entire unit is fitted and tested.

I've been shooting mine almost every day. I'm retired and can do that. I'm up to around 1500 rounds as of this morning. That's not a lot for an AR. Some people will do that in a couple of days. But, 1500 rounds with zero malfunctions is what I would call encouraging. Not decisive, but encouraging.

I will also add that for many people an 80% rifle at a 70% price is a great deal. A lot of people just aren't going to shoot them that much or expect (or be able to take advantage of) superb accuracy.

I'm not going to keep shooting mine at the rate I have been. The only reason I've been doing that is because this carbine is so utterly different than any of the other 200 or so firearms I've owned, it's taken me a while to get the feel of it. I'm never going to be a competition grade shooter, but I want to be comfortable that I can function with the firearm - get it up and get an accurate shot off within a reasonable time, be accurate at carbine ranges if there's time for a more deliberate shot, and etc. I'm also learning to use two different sights on it: the aperture sight in the carrying handle, and a Trijicon ACOG. So that means more practice. I'll get to a point where I'm comfortable that I'm 95% as good as I could ever get. After that I'll shoot it periodically to keep the skill level I've attained.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that, if it's as good as I need or can use, for me personally, it's a 100% rifle at a 70% price. I would be wasting money to pay more for something that I can't take advantage of. I think a lot of people are like that.

As for the 250% hype figure - so what? Every manufacturer tries to get as much publicity as possible. WW seems to be very good at it. Why should that bother you? This company also seems to be building a very loyal customer base, me included. That just means they're doing something right. Why would that bother you? Being loyal to a company that treats people well does not make anyone a "shill". If by "shill" you mean an employee of the company pretending to be a customer, I doubt that. They're selling everything they can make now, and more. They don't need to resort to dishonesty to enhance sales. They would be better off using their employees time to fill the orders they have.

Here is the link to the American Rifleman Review.

Haven't touched a new WW rifle yet. Just and objective observation. It looks like WW is attempting to remedy some of the shortcomings that BM has ignored for years. BM sat on it's hands not making any upgrades to stay current while many companies did improve on there products. I'm glad to see WW make these changes. With a couple more small, easy to make changes they could offer a full featured rifle that nobody should have a lot to complain about. As far as what "the other site" thinks about anything...meh.  

I for one applaud WWs attempt at improving their product. If they come around and make a mil spec receiver extension and F marked FSB standard, that would be another step towards showing they are trying to offer what people want. I'm not hugely concerned about HPT/MPI bolts but always buy them. Shouldn't be a huge deal for them to make this upgrade as well.

Never had a problem with the barrels the old company used to offer. For the most part exceptionally accurate.  

Castle nut staking? 2 seconds with spring loaded punch addresses that. No biggie. I tip my hat to their efforts.

No offense, but I don't think reviews done by the American Rifleman, or any other gun rag, will hold any water here.

There are over 5800 people viewing this forum right now. You don't speak for all of them, and you certainly don't speak for the general gun-buying public. The American Rifleman is pretty well respected generally, I think. I am sure that you do speak for a great many members of this forum.

The subject has come up in this thread concerning why there is so much interest in this brand. Whether or not you, or a lot of people on this forum respect the AR or any other magazine does not negate the fact that a review like that does generate interest. I'm pretty sure it'll do a lot more for the company than the long time users here blessing or damning them will!

I think you’re getting a little too defensive.

All I think he was trying to say is just because one gun magazine gives a good review on a weapon isn't enough to persuade most people here who have more knowledge of the AR15 platform than the general gun-buying public.

Could be. That part about "The American Rifleman" being a "gun rag" got under my skin a little bit. I think the NRA deserves better than that. Granted, they can't do the in-depth testing that thousands of owners can do over months and years. Still, I think their reviews are a cut above "Guns and Ammo" and the like. For one thing they test every rifle the same way they test every other rifle. Five consecutive five shot groups at 100 yards, etc. I'll bet if you did a survey you'd find that people trust them more. Again, my point in this particular case isn't to advocate for WW, but to offer an explanation for the interest in the company. That doesn't really have anything to do with persuading anyone on this forum. Anyone who has found this forum has a lot more information than the magazines can provide. But an awful lot of people buy AR15 type rifles without consulting this forum. A lot of them read gun magazines. I found the forum after I bought my rifle.

Don't let the criticism get to you. People can quibble over your choice, but in the end it was your choice. How many times has a choice to buy a Toyota versus a Honda been life-altering? Chances are that it will never have a meaningful impact on your life, livelihood or happiness, except that it made you happy when you bought it and it continues to do so when you use it. If and when that becomes not the case, you'll sell it and buy something else you're happier with. But in the meantime, I'd encourage you to respond to to the criticism the same way I do when someone asks WTF I'd spend $50k on a watch that mostly sits in my safe along with 20 other watches. Because I wanted it, and I could afford it. Any further questioning on their part risks an answer that involves me telling them it was my decision and if they don't like it, they can go eff themselves.

I've been clear that I'm currently a card-carrying member of the "buy-a-Colt-for-the-money" club, but I've also got a bunch of non-Colts. I re-staked some gas keys and castle nuts on some that I found to be less than ideally done, but I'd take any of them to a carbine class or downstairs to investigate a late night noise. I happen to subscribe to the school of thought that $200 spent on training is more likely to make a difference when it counts than a Colt vs. WW, if that $200 is really hard for someone to afford. And I'm not in a rush to sell any of them just to swap them with Colts.

I'm referring to my Bushmaster, not a WW, but I'd say that my "compaints" with my BM are only partially related to those specs.

- The gas keys were not staked enough, and the torque on the screws was low enough that I re-did both myself. I have seen threads where BM gas key screws were out-of-spec small, making effective staking impossible.
- The system was heavily gassed. As a result, I saw some of the typical symptoms of the bolt getting thrown around too hard. Given their approach to gas port sizing, I think they should have installed the H buffer as a stock item rather than a carbine buffer.
- Barrel torquing on mine was within spec, but I have seen many reports of barrels and barrel nuts coming loose early because they weren't installed with proper attention originally.
- Castle nut on mine was not tight when I went to install the Magpul ASAP end plate.. not loose enough to come off at the time but enough that I'd want to check it if I bought a new one.
- I have not had a bolt break on me since I consider them wear items to be replaced at service intervals and I have not worn out a barrel, so I can't comment on HP/MP testing. I'd prefer to have it obviously, but until someone tells me how many actually fail the testing I don't really know if it makes any difference - if every bolt and barrel pass then I consider it completely marketing-driven / if 50% fail then I wouldn't buy one without it.
- Lastly, the lack of an F-marked FSB doesn't bug me - the LW profile Colts don;t have them either given the barrel profile. But you MUST install the tall FSP with it. And BM shipped it with the standard FSP. Unacceptable. They sell the tall posts as parts. They know their FSBs are not F-marked. How can they ship a rifle with that combo messed up? I have my FSP ratched almost to the limit to get a proper zero because I refused to pay them for a tall sight post.

That is really all I meant.

I certainly have great respect for the NRA and NRA-ILA and all that they do for gun owners, and I am currently on their 10 year payment plan to become a Life Member.  Sorry if I offended anyone, it was not my intention.

As far as WW AR's are concerned, I will take the same wait-and-see stance I do on most "new" brands.  When it comes to AR's, and firearms in general, I personally prefer to purchase brands that have been around and have a well deserved reputation, and that takes time.