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Posted: 9/11/2010 1:58:28 PM EDT
[#1]
The Army still teaches SPORTS because they want to use a easy to remember TTP to train large qtys of troops with little training in a short period of time... that said, it does not make it the go to TTP..
Most Cops and .Mil are still pretty clueless on how to run guns, there learning and good TTPs are out there, but unfortunately there are those who subscribe to them because it's what they learned and all they know... Kinda like how they use to teach us to never use a tourniquet.... 
When I retired from Big green, I undid a lot of stupid shit they taught me.. staggering gas rings.. Over cleaning... using CLP... using SPORTS or the FA... 25M zero... underlubing... the list goes on and on.... |
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Posted: 9/11/2010 2:03:12 PM EDT
[#2]
Quoted:
Quoted:
The FA isn't for forcing an out of spec round into a dirty chamber. It is to ensure that other malfunctions, such as a weak recoil spring, dirty receiver, or other non-threatening obstruction does not prevent the shooter from continuing to use a rifle. It is also a failsafe to ensure the bolt is fully in battery. If something is not working right, causing the bolt to not seat, the rifle isn't safe to fire. It will just happen again on the next shot. Especially if the malfunction is unrelated to ammo or the chamber, such as a weak recoil spring. Weak recoil springs just don't happen suddenly either. The fact that the USMC is still teaching to use it is meaningless to me. Easy to come up with new lessons, hard to drop old bad lessons. What would be meaningful is to find out why they teach it in the first place. The whole "in case you have to sneak up on someone" argument is gunshow commando bullshit. Sometimes there are too many tools in a toolbox. Consider individual rounds expendable and eject the shit round and move on, BEFORE YOU FORCE IT INTO THE CHAMBER, and can't extract it. That all being said, I don't see any reason to put resources into REMOVING the FA. But, honestly, I'd like to go back to upper receivers without FA and without case deflectors. Thin is in.  
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Posted: 9/11/2010 2:25:59 PM EDT
[#3]
Quoted:
The Army still teaches SPORTS because they want to use a easy to remember TTP to train large qtys of troops with little training in a short period of time... that said, it does not make it the go to TTP.. Most Cops and .Mil are still pretty clueless on how to run guns, there learning and good TTPs are out there, but unfortunately there are those who subscribe to them because it's what they learned and all they know... Kinda like how they use to teach us to never use a tourniquet....
When I retired from Big green, I undid a lot of stupid shit they taught me.. staggering gas rings.. Over cleaning... using CLP... using SPORTS or the FA... 25M zero... underlubing... the list goes on and on.... I am exactly the same way. Every single thing you just listed. Still, I wonder why they think T(PP)RB and a Rip Drill is too hard to teach? SPORTS is taught as Immediate Action but is is really a half-assed attempt at Remedial Action. |
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Posted: 9/11/2010 3:13:12 PM EDT
[#4]
You can also use the side of the bolt carrier to push the bolt so it's in battery...
FYI. FA can have a use, but I've never used it. Always taught to use it but I never did. Never got my weapon dirty enough to use it, even with firing 1500 or so rounds at a time (colt m16a2) |
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Posted: 9/11/2010 3:19:45 PM EDT
[#5]
Quoted:
OOoooooh! Impressive indeed!
Well, we were trained to use it for the first round chambered, and it does come in handy when checking the chamber, as has been mentioned. Well, a certain SOF-D instructor thinks it's bullshit for general use. Sure it works to close the bolt after a press check. Other than that, it tends to cause more porblems than it solves. Your impressive training might be better than his though.....wait, it isn't. The Military still teaches SPORTS too and no reputable instructor still teaches that garbage. If you wan't the latest TTP, you ain't gonna find it with big Army. The great thing is that with that Tier One™ training, expert SOF-D® advice and opinions, as well as all the AR15 options and vendors out there you can put your rifle together however you and your expert rifle training dictates. 
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Posted: 9/11/2010 3:36:37 PM EDT
[#6]
I also don't have to run around with my head up my ass cluelessly thinking I am in a candy store either. I consider that an even greater thing.
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Posted: 9/11/2010 3:39:12 PM EDT
[#7]
According to Gene Stoner, the forward assist will create more problems than it will solve. He was adamantly opposed to it.
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Posted: 9/11/2010 3:47:01 PM EDT
[#8]
Quoted:
You can also use the side of the bolt carrier to push the bolt so it's in battery... FYI. FA can have a use, but I've never used it. Always taught to use it but I never did. Never got my weapon dirty enough to use it, even with firing 1500 or so rounds at a time (colt m16a2) From what I read, this was actually what Stoner intended. THe FA was added as a military requirement, not as part of the design as he saw it. The only reason I can think of having to silently close a bolt is after one is done cleaning a rifle in a patrol base. And, even for that you can press your thumb against the recess in the bolt carrier. The only time I've ever used the FA I had the gun blow up in my hands. |
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Posted: 9/11/2010 4:44:38 PM EDT
[#9]
I have a habit of tapping the forward assist to lock the bolt back into place after checking for a clear chamber.
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Posted: 9/11/2010 5:44:39 PM EDT
[#10]
Quoted:
Quoted:
I have no love for threads that start off: "Why no love for..." This Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile Agreed. (...or I should say, "Word.") (...or I should ask, "was the original concept of the FA properly vetted?") ETC. The older I get, the more I dislike the habits of other people's kids. |
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Posted: 9/11/2010 6:34:51 PM EDT
[#11]
Quoted:
You can also use the side of the bolt carrier to push the bolt so it's in battery... FYI. FA can have a use, but I've never used it. Always told to use it but I never did. Never got my weapon dirty enough to use it, even with firing 1500 or so rounds at a time (colt m16a2) fixed it for you. |
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Posted: 9/11/2010 6:37:14 PM EDT
[#12]
This is when I have used the forward assist:
Brand new, never used aluminum magazine, loaded to design capacity, released charging handle, and the burr on the new magazine's feed lip caused the first round not to chamber fully. Then I used the forward assist. I have done this around three different times, with three different mags, fresh out of the wrapper, and the forward assist worked fast, and it worked well. After this "jump start", each of the mags has functioned flawlessly. YMMV |
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Posted: 9/11/2010 7:09:17 PM EDT
[#13]
I have used the forward assist several times and am a tapper regularly.
In iraq & Kuwait during the great sand storm of 03 the rifles were filty the storm lasted for 3 days and if you took it apart it just got worse. The FA was an advantage here I couldn't get the bolt closed fully with out it on at least on occasion. In combat you may not always have time to stop and wipe down the rifle––the FA gets you through this (even if its a strait pull–– which was not the case) but it lets you continue to close run the rifle while in emergency or on mission until you can get to a security halt or FOB where you can safley pullt he rear pin and get the bolt out for a wipe down. ALSO TO SILENTLY LOAD AN AR YOU PULL THE CHARGING HANDLE BACK, RIDE IT SLOWLY FORWARD, AND TAP THE FORWARD ASSIST UNIT IN BATTERY. |
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Posted: 9/11/2010 7:32:31 PM EDT
[#14]
Quoted:
I also don't have to run around with my head up my ass cluelessly thinking I am in a candy store either. I consider that an even greater thing. Wonderful, and thought provoking response. If you had pre-qualified that statement with proper credentials it would have held some credence 
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Posted: 9/11/2010 7:33:23 PM EDT
[#15]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I have no love for threads that start off: "Why no love for..." This Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile Agreed. (...or I should say, "Word.") (...or I should ask, "was the original concept of the FA properly vetted?") ETC. The older I get, the more I dislike the habits of other people's kids. I'm sorry I offended you about the wording of this thread. It just so happens that there was another thread that started with the same "Why no love for" so I figured I might as well do it also. I thought that's how people spoke on the internet. Next time I will be much more careful as to not offend you.  Thats all I gotta say to this thread, I try to ask a simple question and then get harrassed about the most pointless things.
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Posted: 9/11/2010 8:43:17 PM EDT
[#16]
Quoted:
I have used the forward assist several times and am a tapper regularly. In iraq & Kuwait during the great sand storm of 03 the rifles were filty the storm lasted for 3 days and if you took it apart it just got worse. The FA was an advantage here I couldn't get the bolt closed fully with out it on at least on occasion. In combat you may not always have time to stop and wipe down the rifle––the FA gets you through this (even if its a strait pull–– which was not the case) but it lets you continue to close run the rifle while in emergency or on mission until you can get to a security halt or FOB where you can safley pullt he rear pin and get the bolt out for a wipe down. ALSO TO SILENTLY LOAD AN AR YOU PULL THE CHARGING HANDLE BACK, RIDE IT SLOWLY FORWARD, AND TAP THE FORWARD ASSIST UNIT IN BATTERY. It's clear you could use some Tier 1 or SOF-D training. Either that or have the most highly funded and mobile military in the world issue you something that works in the environment they've sent you to. And make sure it doesn't have a forward assist, you could get hurt.. 
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Posted: 9/11/2010 8:48:16 PM EDT
[#17]
Quoted:
the forward assist doesnt chamber a round quietly, i think people just repeat what they read/hear.... It's a heck of a lot more quiet than pulling the charging handle and letting it fly.... |
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Posted: 9/11/2010 9:09:27 PM EDT
[#18]
Quoted:
Quoted:
I also don't have to run around with my head up my ass cluelessly thinking I am in a candy store either. I consider that an even greater thing. Wonderful, and thought provoking response. If you had pre-qualified that statement with proper credentials it would have held some credence
It was the response you merited. |
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Posted: 9/11/2010 9:16:18 PM EDT
[#19]
Quoted:
Quoted:
I have used the forward assist several times and am a tapper regularly. In iraq & Kuwait during the great sand storm of 03 the rifles were filty the storm lasted for 3 days and if you took it apart it just got worse. The FA was an advantage here I couldn't get the bolt closed fully with out it on at least on occasion. In combat you may not always have time to stop and wipe down the rifle––the FA gets you through this (even if its a strait pull–– which was not the case) but it lets you continue to close run the rifle while in emergency or on mission until you can get to a security halt or FOB where you can safley pullt he rear pin and get the bolt out for a wipe down. ALSO TO SILENTLY LOAD AN AR YOU PULL THE CHARGING HANDLE BACK, RIDE IT SLOWLY FORWARD, AND TAP THE FORWARD ASSIST UNIT IN BATTERY. It's clear you could use some Tier 1 or SOF-D training. Either that or have the most highly funded and mobile military in the world issue you something that works in the environment they've sent you to. And make sure it doesn't have a forward assist, you could get hurt.. I am telling you what is. If you don't like the message, don't complain to the messenger. If you have a problem with the TTP that Larry Vickers or Pat Rogers teaches, I suggest you ask them why they feel it prudent to de-emphasize the Forward Assist. The fact that the BTDT Tier 1 Instructors do not emphasize it is a huge honking clue. Pat even posts on this forum from time to time. Ask him yourself. That is if you feel their credentials are sufficient to be worthy of your time 
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Posted: 9/11/2010 9:29:13 PM EDT
[#20]
I hate it because I am a lefty. If I were right handed I wouldn't mind, but having my rifle slung can sometimes be uncomfortable. That forward assist stabs me constantly. Also, as a lefty it should be on the other side for me, but its not.
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Posted: 9/11/2010 9:35:50 PM EDT
[#21]
Quoted:
Have you guys ever done a chamber check? FA comes in handy to make absolutely sure the round is seated. Really what's wrong with it? It adds almost no weight and takes up minimal space. I'm with you. |
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Posted: 9/11/2010 10:26:26 PM EDT
[#22]
I was issued an M16 without a FA in 1979 (USAF). Been an armorer and user since. I understand why they came about but I don't think they are critical anymore.
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Posted: 9/11/2010 10:49:35 PM EDT
[#23]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I also don't have to run around with my head up my ass cluelessly thinking I am in a candy store either. I consider that an even greater thing. Wonderful, and thought provoking response. If you had pre-qualified that statement with proper credentials it would have held some credence
It was the response you merited. Well, good for you, then, sir. |
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Posted: 9/11/2010 10:53:26 PM EDT
[#24]
I would hope any real training would not emphasize its use as that's some pretty trivial and basic shit.
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Posted: 9/12/2010 7:34:01 AM EDT
[#25]
LOL! I love the debates/fights over the forward assist. "tier-1" LOLOL Really, if a person does not like the idea of a forward assist, buy a receiver without one. There are options to be purchased. |
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Posted: 9/12/2010 7:39:29 AM EDT
[#26]
Quoted:
Quoted:
OOoooooh! Impressive indeed!
Well, we were trained to use it for the first round chambered, and it does come in handy when checking the chamber, as has been mentioned. Well, a certain SOF-D instructor thinks it's bullshit for general use. Sure it works to close the bolt after a press check. Other than that, it tends to cause more porblems than it solves. Your impressive training might be better than his though.....wait, it isn't. The Military still teaches SPORTS too and no reputable instructor still teaches that garbage. If you wan't the latest TTP, you ain't gonna find it with big Army. Starting with EMP/MOCs and now CMP they are not supposed to teach taping the assist anymore. |
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