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Posted: 9/10/2010 5:57:20 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/10/2010 5:58:10 PM EDT by homedefender83]
So I just fired my first ar15 yesterday using my new built gun. I sighted in my iron sights ( i think) against a 50 yard target. With the gun at the bench I got the rounds to get really close and sometimes hit dead center bullseye. I started shooting round after round after round at the target, and got every single round inside the black of the target but they were still everywhere. I would say my best groups were like 4-6 inch groups. Is this normal for a shooter that is new like me or should the shots be alot tighter at 50 yards? I feel like I suck but do not know if I should expect this or not at bench rest. I sure have a new found big respect to experienced shooters. This was alot harder than I thought it was gonna be. But, fucken fun as hell.
Link Posted: 9/10/2010 5:59:14 PM EDT
Keep practicing and concentrate more on your technique than your target results. Time and a good trigger will tell.
Also practice at the 50 yard mark for a while then move out.
Link Posted: 9/10/2010 6:02:04 PM EDT
Practice makes perfect. Have a buddy shoot your rifle to confirm it's you / provide a humbling reaffirmation if you want. I'm no sharpshooter –– the only metric I care about is "minute of bad guy's chest at 100 yards or less."
Link Posted: 9/10/2010 6:05:50 PM EDT
Thats what sucks. I dont have any "buddys" who shoot. I am a lone ranger when it comes to this addiction among my social acquaintances and my family. So I have no resources at all.
Link Posted: 9/10/2010 6:09:02 PM EDT
That is OK shooting for a new shooter. Practice and focus on breathing and trigger control. Take your time and have fun.

Link Posted: 9/10/2010 6:11:02 PM EDT
That's one of THE reasons I have a dedicated .22LR upper. I spend hours at the range with a brick of ammo and toss wood chips on the 50 & 100 yd berms to shoot up using irons, then finish with some time on steel at 200 yds. One of my favorite shooting past times.
Link Posted: 9/10/2010 6:13:03 PM EDT
My first time ever shooting a rifle (pellet gun excluded), I (with the help of an experienced fellow Arfcom member) zeroed my RRA Entry Tac at 50yds from the bench using quality hunting-type ammo and shot roughly 4" groups. So based off of that I'd say you're doing just fine.

Keep shooting, you'll get better. I found it better to practice at 50yds until I was comfortable and confident in my skills.
Link Posted: 9/10/2010 6:13:07 PM EDT
Keep practicing. Different barrels and different ammo will effect your accuracy as well. Just keep practicing and trying different ammo.
Link Posted: 9/10/2010 6:14:27 PM EDT
One of the things that are bothering me is that I was trying to sight this in at 50 yards. All tutorials for zeroing irons starts at 25 yards. I am thinking about finding a range that has targets starting out at 25 instead of 50 where I was at. I wonder if a 25 yard target will be alot easier and will give me more confidence in my zero.
Link Posted: 9/10/2010 6:14:45 PM EDT
Also practice sight picture with snap caps. One thing you learn at close range is bullet impact and what you are doing right.
Link Posted: 9/10/2010 6:29:06 PM EDT
Look into Appleseed. Great basic marksmanship with some history rolled in. You'll be amazed at how much your shooting will improve.
Link Posted: 9/10/2010 6:30:39 PM EDT
Try your HTF and see if there is anyone in WA that you learn from.
Link Posted: 9/10/2010 6:34:35 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/10/2010 6:36:53 PM EDT by JPC]
Not bad for a newb. Now get off the bench,stand ,kneel, go prone.
Get a dry firing device,and practice dry firing.
Ditto the .22lr kit and getting to an Appleseed.
Link Posted: 9/10/2010 6:39:41 PM EDT
what part of washington are you from?
Link Posted: 9/10/2010 6:40:28 PM EDT
What ammo were you using? Some of the cheap stuff is pretty inconsistent.
Link Posted: 9/10/2010 6:40:32 PM EDT
I am in the Everett area.
Link Posted: 9/10/2010 6:44:28 PM EDT
Shoot more and focus in the front sight, read everything you can,dryfire all you can.
Link Posted: 9/10/2010 6:51:29 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/10/2010 6:54:39 PM EDT by homedefender83]
I was using 55 grain remington and then switched to 55 grain federal. I was shooting this through my 1:7 twist barrel. I am aware that the 1:7 twist is designed for heavier grain bullets. I could only afford this cheap walmart shit.
Link Posted: 9/10/2010 7:13:49 PM EDT
Are your shots spreading up and down, left and right or all over the place?

If more up and down, work on breath control.
if more left to right make sure you are squeezing the trigger not jerking it. Also just use the front PAD of the finger not in the joint. Make sure your pulling the trigger in a straight line.
Link Posted: 9/10/2010 7:21:15 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Oldgamefreak:
Are your shots spreading up and down, left and right or all over the place?

If more up and down, work on breath control.
if more left to right make sure you are squeezing the trigger not jerking it. Also just use the front PAD of the finger not in the joint. Make sure your pulling the trigger in a straight line.


Dude, thanks that info rocks I will totally try that. Yes my shots were all over the place inside that black dot. Every now and then I would get one dead center but yes they are all over the place up, down, left, and right.
Link Posted: 9/10/2010 7:24:51 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/10/2010 7:27:56 PM EDT by PR361]
Sign up for an Appleseed shoot, friendly bunch of volunteers whos mission is teach rifle marksmanship and history. They WILL teach you how to shoot a rifle. I've shot rifles since 1968, been in the military and own dozens. At the appleseed I felt like I was drinking from the firehose

Then go practice


EDIT: The Remington UMC shoots like buckshot from my 1-7 WOA match barrel, the Federal bulk(100cnt) doesn't do to bad though....
Link Posted: 9/10/2010 7:42:55 PM EDT
That sounds fine. You don't suck at shooting. Lots of good advice here so far. Keep after it as long as you can afford to. When the .223 has to slow down shoot .22 through a conversion kit - but keep using your AR. Shoot at clay pigeons and other fun stuff to hit. Try and generate some moving targets - makes it even more fun. Dry fire your AR at a small spot in a safe direction often. Keep practicing with the irons before relying on a RDS or other optic. Keep the distances easy. Go for consistent cheek weld and sight picture and trigger squeeze. Slow fire untill accurate, then go for doubles and on - one hit beats 4 misses every time. Make sure you keep it fun. Don't worry about not having any shooting buddies - it'll allow you to have focussed practice instead of social ammo spending.

That's the advice I give myself all the time .

-JC
Link Posted: 9/10/2010 7:55:00 PM EDT
Sounds like my first time out and I was using an ACOG..Get more rounds down range and concentrate on some of the things to help your overall techniques others have mentioned. I'm sure it will get better over time.
Link Posted: 9/10/2010 7:59:09 PM EDT
Thanks dudes, nice to know I am normal now. I will work on it.
Link Posted: 9/10/2010 8:00:05 PM EDT
Talk to the people at the range, most of them are friendly and willing to help out. Some of them even willing to share their rifles to shoot. Next thing you know you will have a shooting family as a support group. The only danger is you might drain your bank account after trying the nice rifle next to your bench. Happy shooting and share the sport.
Link Posted: 9/10/2010 8:19:28 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/10/2010 8:23:33 PM EDT by ZOMBIEKILLER1]
Originally Posted By ratgunner1:
Shoot more and focus in the front sight, read everything you can,dryfire all you can.


THIS , ignore the rear sight , your eye will center the front post in the rear sight on its own , All of the post here are good imfo.
Link Posted: 9/10/2010 8:39:31 PM EDT
try some better ammo, if you can get prone and use sandbags try that, use a white or lighter bullseye, try an Appleseed and definitely look up marksmanship tips online. Try different ones on youtube. Somebody's way will help you more than another. For instance I sucked when I first got into pistol shooting until I stumbled across a Youtube video with Dale Jarred and the way he explained the steps to properly shoot a 1911, I caught on quickly and my shooting improved dramatically.


Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile
Link Posted: 9/10/2010 8:52:30 PM EDT
Sight Picture, Sight Alignment, Trigger Control, Breathing (Slowly pull trigger during the natural pause between breaths(do not hold your breath), Try using the small rear aperture and most importantly a Repeatable Cheek Weld will help you out!
Lots of GOOD info above just be patient and reap the REWARDS! Just my .02 M4QUADRAIL
Link Posted: 9/10/2010 9:04:39 PM EDT
When I built my A2 w/carry handle, I used a cheap clamp on scope mount and shot from a benchrest. That was just to see how close the rifle will group, and haven't used a scope or bench since. Iron sights are a hell of a lot more fun and I am practicing for an Appleseed Shoot next weekend. Good luck and I'm sure it will come together for you after a little practice.
Link Posted: 9/10/2010 9:40:08 PM EDT
I dont know what size aiming black your using but you might try a smaller one. Also dry fire ALOT. If you have a friend, GF or wife they can also balance a dime on the FS while you dry fire. You should be able to squueze the trigger without having the dime fall off.

12B
Link Posted: 9/10/2010 11:11:14 PM EDT
Originally Posted By homedefender83:
So I just fired my first ar15 yesterday using my new built gun. I sighted in my iron sights ( i think) against a 50 yard target. With the gun at the bench I got the rounds to get really close and sometimes hit dead center bullseye. I started shooting round after round after round at the target, and got every single round inside the black of the target but they were still everywhere. I would say my best groups were like 4-6 inch groups. Is this normal for a shooter that is new like me or should the shots be alot tighter at 50 yards? I feel like I suck but do not know if I should expect this or not at bench rest. I sure have a new found big respect to experienced shooters. This was alot harder than I thought it was gonna be. But, fucken fun as hell.


it takes time... i grew up on scopes(wrong way). When i got my ak(first rifle with irons) i couldnt hit the target at 25 yards. Now I'm shooting 2" groups w my ar at 50. Even if u used irons before, if the ghost ring is new, you need practice.

Just buy brown bear and shoot till you get down to 2 or 3" groups at 50. Then move out to 100yds. Once you get down to 4" or 5" or so, you know your doing your part. Then start switching ammo.
Link Posted: 9/11/2010 6:48:27 AM EDT
As others have said, normal. As a matter of fact, I made the mistake of going straight to optics (Aimpoint and an ACOG) when I got into AR's and never really shot with irons besides the occasional zero check. I have since sold off all my optics and only run irons now. I have wised up and now know that I dont have to have a Omega rail and TA31 to be cool Ammo and practice is way more important.
Link Posted: 9/11/2010 6:50:56 AM EDT
Breathing, trigger control, release/follow-through.


Looser grip on the pistol-grip. Don't jerk the trigger. Focus on the front sight and nothing else.


Stop looking past the sights to see the impact on every shot


What kind of stock are you using?


Also, you don't sight in irons at 50yds
Link Posted: 9/11/2010 8:47:07 AM EDT
Originally Posted By PR361:
Sign up for an Appleseed shoot, friendly bunch of volunteers whos mission is teach rifle marksmanship and history. They WILL teach you how to shoot a rifle. I've shot rifles since 1968, been in the military and own dozens. At the appleseed I felt like I was drinking from the firehose

Then go practice


EDIT: The Remington UMC shoots like buckshot from my 1-7 WOA match barrel, the Federal bulk(100cnt) doesn't do to bad though....


^THIS! Appleseed shoots are THE place to go if you want to learn how to really shoot well using Irons!
Link Posted: 9/11/2010 8:53:13 AM EDT
this may help



there is not a real problem with zeroing your rifle at 50m but in the service it is normaly carried out at 25m or 100m at 50m you point of impact will be below your point of aim you can work out how far but I can't remeber how to someone will be along I'm sure who can remember.

the marksmanship principles.

1# the weapon should point naturaly at the target without undue force.
2# position and hold should be firm enough to support the weapon.
3# sight alignment (picture) must be correct.
4# the shot must be released and followed through without disturbing your position.

(these are the Brit ones because I'm a Brit)

above all else relax and have fun.

Nick

Link Posted: 9/11/2010 11:02:28 AM EDT
As far as zero goes,

RIBZ

Sounds like you are doing fine. Practice.
Link Posted: 9/11/2010 11:12:23 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Oldgamefreak:
Are your shots spreading up and down, left and right or all over the place?

If more up and down, work on breath control.
if more left to right make sure you are squeezing the trigger not jerking it. Also just use the front PAD of the finger not in the joint. Make sure your pulling the trigger in a straight line.


Originally Posted By ZOMBIEKILLER1:
ignore the rear sight , your eye will center the front post in the rear sight on its own.


These are good posts. Don't worry about cheap ammo. No commercial ammo causes 4" groups at 50 yards - that has to be your technique. Here are my tips for benchrest shooting:

1) Use you left hand to squeeze a sock full of .22RF cases under the rifle's butt. The most common mistake I see at shooting ranges is people who reach forward with their left hand in imitation of shooting from a standing position. But, since the rifle is resting on sandbags, their left hand is serving no purpose. In the meantime, the butt of the rifle is floating around unsupported. If you fill a sock with .22RF cases (which you can find in the dirt) and put it under the butt of the rifle, then squeezing it with your left hand will raise the butt and lower your point of aim. This way your shoulder absorbs recoil but is not involved in steadying the rifle.

2) Don't let the front sling swivel touch the sandbag. The barrel is already moving backwards from recoil before the bullet exits and it will bounce erratically off the sling swivel. It should slide smoothly backwards.

3) Sit down. Nothing looks dumber than someone bent over at the waist with his rear end sticking up like a flag while yanking on the trigger of a rifle resting on a bench. Sit down and relax yourself.

Your rifle sights are probably calibrated in one minute-of-angle (MOA) clicks, which is about a half an inch at 50 yards. When you move out to 100 yards each click will be about one inch. At 200 yards, each click is about two inches. Take a ruler with you to the range and measure how far your shots are from the center.

At fifty yards you should use a bullseye about three to four inches in diameter. At 100 yards, six to eight inches and, at 200 yards, twelve inches. At 200 yards you will need to read the wind, which requires immediate feedback on where your bullets are hitting. (If you fire twenty shots, walk down range and find them strung out horizontally across the target, all you have learned is that you can't read the wind - you have learned nothing to help you improve.) Shoot-N-C targets work great for this as the bullet makes a large mark that is visible through a spotting scope at 200 yards. But I'm getting ahead of myself since you are still at 50 yards learning how to hold the rifle steady.

Don't spend too much time on benchrest shooting. The AR-15 is, after all, an infantry weapon. Once you get your groups off the bench down to about two inches, start practicing standing (called "off-hand"), kneeling and lying down (called "prone") shooting. You will need a military sling (available at military surplus stores) to steady your rifle. Enter a Department of Civilian Marksmanship (DCM) match to learn how to use the sling.
Link Posted: 9/11/2010 5:07:19 PM EDT
Okay guys, want to say thankyou to everyone who replied and gave me all of that great info. I found a range that had 25 meter targets and was actually able to sight in my gun for real this time. Turns out my elevation was all fucked up and when fired correctly I was shooting about 3 inches below center. Sighting in on a 25 meter target was worlds easier. So, with the help you all gave me and having a fire arm sighted in correctly I shot much better I felt today. I pulled off one 1.5 inch group at 50 yards, and I averaged about 2.5 to 3 inch groups. I was very pleased now I know that in a defensive situation I will be able to or the gun will be able to put the rounds on target. Thanks guys.
Link Posted: 9/12/2010 6:06:50 AM EDT
Link Posted: 9/12/2010 7:02:38 AM EDT
If I understand you, you have zeroed your iron sights at 25 with the rear sight elevation at 800/300 (or 600/300), using the small aperture? Then you have correctly zeroed the sights. Do not try to use this zero to hit the point of aim at 50, because the trajectory will be a little high at 50 when you sight at the center of the target, and even higher at 100. This is because the 25 yd zero is also a 300 yd zero. This is a combat trajectory and is not intended for precision shooting except at 25 yds. At all ranges from the muzzle to 300 yds you just aim at center mass. Flip to the large aperture for combat shooting at the closer ranges.
Link Posted: 9/12/2010 10:11:04 AM EDT
Never cared for irons myself, get an Aimpoint and you'll be much happier.
Link Posted: 9/12/2010 12:42:06 PM EDT
@ homedefender83 ––

You have been given almost two pages of excellent advice so far, especially in regard to practicing the basics of shooting and then going to an Appleseed Shoot, but I'd like to add my "2 cents-worth".

Practicing is great advice, but ONLY if you're practicing the CORRECT techniques. If you don't know what all the correct techniques are, you will be working away at ingraining poor techniques. I note that you said you are fairly new to shooting, so I suggest the following:

Go to http://Fredsm14stocks.com

Click on "Latest" in the left-hand menu.

Scroll down to "25-Meter Target Combo" and order it ( $26. + shipping ). Besides the 10 sets of the 25-Meter AQTs (Army Qualification Targets), and the 50 Quick & Dirty AQTs, you will receive "Fred's Guide To Becoming A Rifleman", which is, IMO, the best quick, complete and concise set of instructions in correct shooting techniques you can find. Study the Guide and THEN practice profitably. When you've done that, you're ready to go to an Appleseed shoot.

And, if you're shooting for "groups", don't practice with "el-cheapo", crappy ammunition –– it's just too frustrating. You don't need match-quality ammo, but you do need decent, consistent stuff. You will also have to experiment a bit to find out what brand(s)/loads/bullet-weights your rifle "likes" best, and each barrel is "a law unto itself". I usually practice with Federal/Lake City M-193 [55 gr.] for most of a session and finish up with some Fed./L.C. M-855 [62 gr.], since my Spike's ST-15 M4 LE carbine (1:7 twist) shoots both of them well. IMI (Wideners.com), GGG (Ammoman.com) and ADCOM (Classicarms.us) also work well for me.

While you're on Fred's website, you might want to check out his Articles and Columns; they're a treasure-trove of good info.

Good luck and good shooting.
Link Posted: 9/12/2010 1:13:39 PM EDT
Originally Posted By 1saxman:
If I understand you, you have zeroed your iron sights at 25 with the rear sight elevation at 800/300 (or 600/300), using the small aperture? Then you have correctly zeroed the sights. Do not try to use this zero to hit the point of aim at 50, because the trajectory will be a little high at 50 when you sight at the center of the target, and even higher at 100. This is because the 25 yd zero is also a 300 yd zero. This is a combat trajectory and is not intended for precision shooting except at 25 yds. At all ranges from the muzzle to 300 yds you just aim at center mass. Flip to the large aperture for combat shooting at the closer ranges.


My rear sight is a flip up magpul mbus. I do not know if I am happy with this sight. I think if I had a troy or something close to that, adjusting windage would have been easier. The magpul does not have elevation adjustments. What does that doe for my 25 meter zero now?
Link Posted: 9/12/2010 2:19:19 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/12/2010 2:37:58 PM EDT by Badger66]
at 25m strike is still low for 300m zero point of impact does not meet point of aim for the first time until 37m but this explains it better than I can!!!!








Link Posted: 9/12/2010 2:43:13 PM EDT
Originally Posted By homedefender83:
So I just fired my first ar15 yesterday using my new built gun. I sighted in my iron sights ( i think) against a 50 yard target. With the gun at the bench I got the rounds to get really close and sometimes hit dead center bullseye. I started shooting round after round after round at the target, and got every single round inside the black of the target but they were still everywhere. I would say my best groups were like 4-6 inch groups. Is this normal for a shooter that is new like me or should the shots be alot tighter at 50 yards? I feel like I suck but do not know if I should expect this or not at bench rest. I sure have a new found big respect to experienced shooters. This was alot harder than I thought it was gonna be. But, fucken fun as hell.


With a Range bag as a rest and useing a Rack Grade M4 & Aimpoint or BUIS I can keep my rds in a 2 inch square @ 50Y

Standing Im verry happy to keep all my rds on a paper plate @ 100Y

I really hate shooting M4 from bench


Now I do like shooting 20inch rifles with 3.5-10x prone or off bench

If you have a M4/carbine 4 MOA even 5 MOA is okay for SD
Its not like we will shoot Bad guys at 50Y anyway

Link Posted: 9/12/2010 2:45:08 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/12/2010 2:49:10 PM EDT by FMJ]
Originally Posted By jerz_subbie:
My first time ever shooting a rifle (pellet gun excluded), I (with the help of an experienced fellow Arfcom member) zeroed my RRA Entry Tac at 50yds from the bench using quality hunting-type ammo and shot roughly 4" groups. So based off of that I'd say you're doing just fine.

Keep shooting, you'll get better. I found it better to practice at 50yds until I was comfortable and confident in my skills.



My bad sorry

Link Posted: 9/12/2010 2:46:20 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/12/2010 2:50:46 PM EDT by FMJ]
Originally Posted By homedefender83:
One of the things that are bothering me is that I was trying to sight this in at 50 yards. All tutorials for zeroing irons starts at 25 yards. I am thinking about finding a range that has targets starting out at 25 instead of 50 where I was at. I wonder if a 25 yard target will be alot easier and will give me more confidence in my zero.





NTCH helps me



Link Posted: 9/12/2010 4:04:21 PM EDT
Holy cow guys I can not thank you enough. That diagram put everything in perspective. I really understand now. I think that in the next couple weeks I am going to buy an optic for this gun also.
Link Posted: 9/13/2010 7:11:51 AM EDT
No problem!

Just remember the better you shoot irons the better you will shoot with an optical sight.

Nick
Link Posted: 9/13/2010 10:01:20 AM EDT
Breathe Relax Aim Squeeze Shoot. Repeat. BRASS.
Welcome to the addiction.
Link Posted: 9/13/2010 1:31:13 PM EDT
Originally Posted By homedefender83:
Thats what sucks. I dont have any "buddys" who shoot. I am a lone ranger when it comes to this addiction among my social acquaintances and my family. So I have no resources at all.


Visit your hometown forum here on ARF and make some friends.

4-6 inches at 50 yards is perfectly reasonable for a new shooter. If you can, obtain a Ruger 10/22 and some Tech Sights and get to an Appleseed shoot.
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