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Posted: 11/1/2006 9:09:49 PM EDT
[#1]
  Hornady 5.56 TAP versus TAP FPD The Trouble With 3 Shot Groups My Ultimate AR Free Float versus Non-Free Float |
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OH, USA
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Posted: 11/1/2006 10:15:05 PM EDT
[#2]
I'll see you on the 600 yard line.  But I bet you won't show up. |
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IN, USA
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Posted: 11/1/2006 10:31:24 PM EDT
[#3]
This looks like fun. I'll have to give it a try over the weekend, and I'll post pics. RRA 16" midlength, iron sights, offhand position, with WWB ammo. Thanks for the target links!
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GA, USA
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Posted: 11/1/2006 10:41:10 PM EDT
[#4]
Now yer talkin!! Impressive,Sir.... 
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Posted: 11/2/2006 1:02:57 PM EDT
[#5]
Cool! |
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Posted: 11/4/2006 12:23:38 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Molon]
[#6]
For those of you using the Improved Battlesight Zero, I've scaled the E2 target for 50 yards. Use the link below to download the .pdf file of the target and print it for yourself. Give the Marksman's Challenge a try from 50 yards using this target and post your results!
50 yard targets 
Here is a refresher of the rules for the The Maryland AR15 Shooters Site Marksman’s Challenge. The concept is to fire 20 shots on an M16A2 25 meter zeroing target (which simulates a 300 meter target) within a time limit of two minutes and then post your score. Shooting can also be done from 25 yards using a similar scaled down target and now from 50 yards with the newly scaled target. Shooting may be done from any position including shooting from a bench. However, no part of the rifle may rest on anything other than your hands; no sandbags, bi-pods, mechanical rests or using the magazine as a mono-pod. Slings and shooting coats are allowed. Also, only non-magnified sights may be used; i.e. iron sights, “red-dot” or “reflex” type sights. Any shot breaking the black outline is a hit. Any shot breaking the dashed circle counts as an X. A perfect score would be 20/20-20X. Remember to include the barrel, sight, ammunition and position information when you post your results. |
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WI, USA
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Posted: 11/4/2006 12:36:42 PM EDT
[#7]
I gotta try this sometime!!!!
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Posted: 11/4/2006 1:52:25 PM EDT
[#8]
What size sheet should I print it on for proper scale? Thanks, 5Shot |
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Posted: 11/4/2006 9:01:41 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Molon]
[#9]
You can use plain old 8.5" X 11" paper. The silhouette should measure approximately 5.5" top to bottom for the 50 yard target if printing correctly from Adobe (Acrobat) Reader. |
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IN, USA
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Posted: 11/6/2006 6:17:33 PM EDT
[#10]
Well, I said I'd post a pic, so here goes ... just don't laugh too hard! RRA CAR 16" midlength, no mods, standing offhand position, open sights, 25 yards, Winchester white box ammo. Looks like 7 clean misses (5 of which I was sure I missed as soon as I shot), and 8 in the bullseye.
I KNOW I can do better, dangit! One thing that will definitely help is if I get a couple of 10-rd magazines, as the 30-rounder just seems to be in the way when I'm shooting offhand for accuracy with it. 
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Posted: 11/6/2006 7:55:05 PM EDT
[#11]
Good job! |
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GA, USA
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Posted: 11/6/2006 8:20:27 PM EDT
[#12]
Hmmmm...mine only came out exactly 4" top to bottom 
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Posted: 11/6/2006 8:49:12 PM EDT
[#13]
I just down-loaded the file myself and it printed perfectly, so I'm not sure what went wrong. If you want to IM your e-mail address to me, I'll e-mail you an attachment of the original file. Has anyone else down-loaded the 50 yard target? Molon |
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Posted: 11/6/2006 9:08:32 PM EDT
[Last Edit: triggerhappy556]
[#14]
i did and it came out at 4 inches with 75% zoom went to 100% and it came out 5.5inches  it will not print between 75 and 100
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Posted: 11/6/2006 9:34:55 PM EDT
[#15]
I printed it and it came out 4 inches also.
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Posted: 11/6/2006 9:42:05 PM EDT
[#16]
I think I may have found the problem. On the "print" page you have to have the "page scaling" set to "none" and check the box for "auto-rotate and center". I performed a print with the "page scaling" set to "fit to printer margins" instead of "none" and the silhouette came out to just shy of 4 inches top to bottom. Molon |
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GA, USA
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Posted: 11/6/2006 9:43:35 PM EDT
[#17]
I just increased to 125% and still came out 4"
Sending pm to receive via email...thanks!! |
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GA, USA
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Posted: 11/6/2006 9:44:29 PM EDT
[Last Edit: PointBlank]
[#18]
Just seen your latest post,i'll try again..
It worked...thanks!! |
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Posted: 11/6/2006 9:46:02 PM EDT
[#19]
Give the settings noted in my above post a try and see if that works. Molon |
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Posted: 11/6/2006 9:47:53 PM EDT
[#20]
Did what you said and it came out perfect, Thanks Molon. Also how big are the 25 yard targets suppossed to be? (in inches) |
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GA, USA
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Posted: 11/6/2006 9:53:44 PM EDT
[#21]
Worked...thanks!
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Posted: 11/6/2006 10:31:18 PM EDT
[Last Edit: weptek911]
[#22]
Hey Molon ! That's where I shoot !. How did you get away with posting a silhouette shaped target there ? I'm looking to accept your Gentlemanly challenge and post results..did you have to cover the neck/head on your target ? I usually shoot at the 50 yard line with an H-BAR AR15A2 or FN A2 upper. I think I'll wait until the Fudds are gone before I try  |
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Posted: 11/6/2006 10:54:03 PM EDT
[#23]
Funny you should mention the silhouette target. I had no idea that a 5.5" target would be classified as a human shaped target and be banned from use at the range. Near the end of today's shooting session I was told by one of the range officers that my targets could not be used there. I guess I'll have to find another range to shoot at or lop the "head" off the target for use at that range. P.S. The Fudds were out in full force today. Their lack of comprehension of firearm safety was frightening. |
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Posted: 11/6/2006 10:57:12 PM EDT
[#24]
I'm glad to hear the targets are printing correctly. The 25 yard target should measure half of the 50 yard target or approximately 2.75" from top to bottom. Molon |
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Posted: 11/6/2006 11:02:29 PM EDT
[#25]
I'm just going to tape a piece of paper over the "head" It shouldn't effect the target
area. They have allowed me to shoot them like that before. I was there Sunday, It was nuts. It looked like this           
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Posted: 11/6/2006 11:07:11 PM EDT
[#26]
Not using your images.. but here are four shots from the last time I was out shooting my M&P15. 16" Chrome, Leupold CQ/T, Bipod. Shooting a mix of Guat and RG SS109 @ 50yd. The targets are roughly 2.5" high each. Didn't have a rule or tape measure, so I tossed some pennies and a nickle on to show scale.
 bottom right group, if you can call it that, is what happens when you don't tighten the mounting hardware down well.. oops. The Leupod was removed and re-mounted between each string to make sure it was returning to zero when I put it back on. The pulls are all my fault of course.I thought they were pretty good myself. Time between shots was about 2-5 seconds, then a minute or two taking the scope off and putting it back on. |
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Posted: 11/6/2006 11:25:52 PM EDT
[#27]
Score coming tomorrow.....Thanks for the thread.
Targethunter |
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TX, USA
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Posted: 11/7/2006 12:14:35 AM EDT
[#28]
Which Creedmore jacket is that? Jim |
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Posted: 11/7/2006 11:44:55 AM EDT
[#29]
It's the cordura "Hardback Heavy" with the tapered waist, ventilation and "all-position" options. |
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Posted: 11/7/2006 12:45:20 PM EDT
[#30]
I have seen this challenge before, but have never tried it. When my new custom upper from Jason at JTac comes in I'll try it out. Look like it could be fun.
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TX, USA
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Posted: 11/7/2006 1:40:07 PM EDT
[#31]
In case anyone feels this is not a realistic test of rifle or ammo should know that when I was in Army Basic Training back in the 90's nobody was allowed to move their sights until they could shoot a 3 shot group at 25 yards (prone supported) that could be covered by a dime. Only then could you move your sights to get zeroed.
Holding rounds in groups like this at 25 yards is a basic soldiers skill. |
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Posted: 11/7/2006 2:16:40 PM EDT
[#32]
And when you're done with the MC and you want to try something else fun, try the seven shot relay.
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Posted: 11/7/2006 2:47:25 PM EDT
[#33]
The dotted bullseye on these is 6 MOA. If you want a similar "target" for dry-fire practice at home, it works out to a 1/2 inch diameter circle at 25 feet. I'm sure you can find something that size (small target paster, etc) and most houses have at least one 25 ft hallway or open area. BE SURE THE CHAMBER AND MAGAZINE ARE EMPTY and click away.
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Posted: 11/7/2006 9:50:37 PM EDT
[#34]
OK, here goes. To prove that I am trying to do this as acuratly as the guidelines state.
These are the conditions: Raining (Light misting actually) Heavy cloud cover and 5:30PM Standing Offhand with the rifle picturedwearing a military M65 Field Jacket with liner Ammo is mixed brands to simulate scrounging some DNL, Georgia Arms, Federal, and RG. I didnt measure the distance exact. I took 25 good paces (I am 6' 2" and these strides are close to 3 feet each) I will describe the scenerio with the dismal groups as follows  Here is the rifle with the target from today. Rifle is a M16 with unknown origin A2 11" upper with A1 birdcage. I built this gun once I got my 02 SOT and it has seen very little trigger time since then. As I found out today, the gun was shooting low as my first complete group was off of the scoring target.  Here is the target, sorry about the blurry image, but yo ucan see the groups anyway. The first group is the low one on the left. I then fired a 20 round mag at the right hand target not knowing the gun was shooting low yet. I did this in Auto on purpose to see where the rounds would actually go in a real situation. It is the low group on the right, note there are 10 holes here. The other ten are in the cardboard above where I had the target taped about 10 inches high at 25 yards!!! I was pulling "doubles" in Auto to get this effect. Shows the use of automatic fire pretty clearly ....I then checked my target and found where I was hitting and decided to set the sight on 400 meters and try again, this is the middle group that actually scored some hits. I went up 3 more clicks and reloaded the maga again and by now it is getting dusky and the target was getting blurry, or was it my eyes ? This is the group on the right that scored some hits as well.Good practice, easy to remember, nothing too fancy about it. I like it. I will try again in a day or two and see if better light helps any .Targethunter Out |
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Posted: 11/7/2006 11:09:58 PM EDT
[#35]
why is everybody shooting offhand? original challenge was from the bench with a sling and jacket.
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Posted: 11/8/2006 11:21:59 AM EDT
[#36]
Nice work. Nothing "dismal" about the groups since they were fired off-hand. The full-auto "group" was interesting. If I'm reading your post correctly, there was a distance of about 10" between the impacts of the first and second rounds of a two-round burst.  That doesn't seem like a very useful method of shooting does it. Thanks for posting.Molon |
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Posted: 11/8/2006 11:47:45 AM EDT
[#37]
Probably because of this part... Shooting may be done from any position including shooting from a bench. However, no part of the rifle may rest on anything other than your hands; no sandbags, bi-pods, mechanical rests or using the magazine as a mono-pod. Slings and shooting coats are allowed. The word MAY means you can fire from the offhand position if you choose to. At least that is what I took it to mean. Thanks for the question it was a good one. MOLON - You are right in the the rounds were hitting 10" above the first hits. I was impressed by the muzzle climb in burst. Thanks Targethunter |
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Posted: 11/8/2006 12:20:25 PM EDT
[#38]
Exactly correct. The idea was to shoot in positions OTHER than a bench, but bench shooting is allowed since at some ranges that is the only way you are allowed to shoot. The idea was to get people out shooting and working on their basic marksmanship skills. |
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Posted: 11/10/2006 12:18:28 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Molon]
[#39]
Run #4
For my 4th run of the Marksman’s Challenge I decided to take SamColt’s suggestion to use military grade ammunition one step further: military grade ammunition through a military grade barrel. I have a Colt M16-A2 barrel (20” government profile, chrome lined, NATO chambered with 1:7” twist) installed on a Colt AR-15 A2 upper receiver that fits the bill nicely. Instead of the M193 ammunition that I used on the last run of the Marksman’s Challenge, for this run I decided to use IMI M855; for two reasons: 1) M855 is the standard issue for the U.S. Military and 2) M855 is some of the least accurate ammunition that I have. (No I don’t have any Wolf ammunition and yes I’m an ammo snob. )For this run of the Marksman Challenge I also used the newly scaled targets for 50 yards. Shooting was done from 50 yards using a web sling with elbows resting on the bench. The results of my best target are shown below. to be continued. . . |
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AR, USA
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Posted: 11/10/2006 12:50:48 PM EDT
[Last Edit: jblachly]
[#40]
The reason he asked is that the PDF itself is porportioned wrongly: it measures 8.9 x 14.something inches. I haven't measured, but it's possible that when scaling to print on standard US LETTER that the imagae will be the wrong size (conversely, it could be the wrong size in the document but correct when printed on US LETTER due to scalling, again, I've not measured). edited to add: based on followup posts by you and others, it looks like the sillouhette image is the correct size in the document but the "paper" size is wrong; since I don't own Acrobat I can't correct it. If you would please crop the page size to 8.5x11 (US LETTER) without changing the scaling of the black targets, then re-upload the file, it would print well for everyone without having to fiddle with printing options. Thanks again. |
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Posted: 11/10/2006 7:54:04 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Molon]
[#41]
The .pdf file is not “proportioned wrongly.” It doesn’t matter what the size of the page is in the .pdf document because the properly scaled silhouettes will fit on an 8.5” X 11” piece of paper.
As I posted earlier, the most accurate way to print the targets is to set the “page scaling” option in the print window to “none”. The reason for this is that everyone’s printer margins are going to be different. If you choose one of the other options for page scaling, such as “fit to printer margins” or “reduce to printer margins” the silhouettes will be enlarged or reduced according to an interaction between your particular printer margins and the size of the page in the .pdf document. For example, if I crop the original document to 8.5” X 11” while maintaining the proper scale for the silhouettes as you suggested, the silhouettes will print reduced to 94% of the proper scale if “fit to printer margins” or “reduce to printer margins” is selected. Yet the silhouettes will still print to the proper scale from the cropped document if the “none” option is selected for “page scaling”. It’s much easier to simply left click with your mouse on the “none” option for page scaling than it is to try to adjust for 5,197 different printer margin settings. Molon |
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Posted: 11/10/2006 11:22:39 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Molon]
[#42]
. . . continued from Run #4
While I was at the 50 yard line with my M16-A2 barreled upper and M855 ammunition I decided to give a different “challenge” a try. The 500 yard slow-fire qualification for the United States Marine Corps consists of firing 10 shots in 10 minutes on a target similar to the one pictured below. (The target pictured below has been scaled down for 50 yards.) Here is a pic of the 500 yard Marine Corps target scaled for 50 yards next to the Marksman’s Challenge target scaled for 50 yards for comparison. A shot on the silhouette on the Marine Corps target is worth 5 points. A shot outside the silhouette but within the inner ring is worth 4 points. A shot within the outer ring is worth 3 points. A perfect score on this target would be 50/50. I fired the simulated 500 yard qualification using my AR-15 A2 upper receiver/M16-A2 barrel combination using a web sling with elbows resting on a bench at 50 yards. As mentioned earlier, the ammunition used was IMI M855. I used less than half of the allotted 10 minutes to fire the 10 shots as reading the wind at 50 yards is practically a none-issue whereas it would be a critical matter at 500 yards. The greatest difficulty I experienced with this course of fire was trying to visualize the target when focusing on the front sight. The rings on the target are not visible to the naked eye from 50 yards and the silhouette itself appears as only about half the width of the front sight post. My results are pictured below. I’ve posted a link below to a .pdf file of the Marine Corps 500 yard qualification target reduced for 50 yards so that you can down-load it and give the simulated qualification a try for your-self. The silhouette should measure a hair over 4” if printing correctly. |
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Posted: 11/11/2006 5:28:26 PM EDT
[#43]
Just a reminder.
When printing the down-loaded targets from Adobe Reader, be sure the "page scaling" option in the print window is set to "none." |
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NY, USA
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Posted: 11/11/2006 5:58:54 PM EDT
[#44]
In the fleet, hits outside the black are worth 0. Only MCRD uses the above mentioned scoring system. Just FYI... Nice work. |
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Posted: 11/11/2006 9:57:50 PM EDT
[#45]
Thank's for your input. Are you currently serving? |
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NY, USA
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Posted: 11/11/2006 10:25:02 PM EDT
[#46]
Yep. That's how we scored last time at Quantico. |
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Posted: 11/11/2006 10:36:19 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Molon]
[#47]
If you don't mind sharing, what would you say is a "typical" score on the 500 yard slow fire qualification? |
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NY, USA
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Posted: 11/11/2006 11:12:24 PM EDT
[#48]
For some odd reason most Marines in my company would do rather well at the 500. Where they threw their shots was in the 200 offhand and 300 kneeling. (God I hate the kneeling). I was usually getting 9/10 or 10/10. The prone pos with loop sling is a very stable firing position. At that range the FSP is roughly the size of the target. Having a minute per shot isn't that bad either.
Oh, and wind wasn't much of a factor at Quantico due to it's design. Drum on the other hand was another story... |
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OH, USA
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Posted: 11/11/2006 11:34:32 PM EDT
[#49]
Not going to make a difference in accuracy, if that's what you are thinking. |
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CT, USA
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Posted: 11/11/2006 11:57:01 PM EDT
[#50]
out of shear curiosity has anyone gotten or known someone that has gotten a complete perfect score on the marine rifle quals, and how do they score the tests?
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