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You need to square up more and crouch a little, tuck those arms in and bring the butt of the stock over more on your collarbone, and get your nose to the charging handle.
Another thing you can do is bring your left hand and place it on the front of the magwell. Get into that postion and you should have it Hope that helps, get some training. Sully is a great instructor |
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I understand that the "fighting" stance has evolved through the years because of newer developments in both arms and armor.
The fighting stance you both speak of now - as i understand it - was adopted with the rationale that you put your armour square to the enemy ... because your most vulnerable spot are your sides where there is a "seam or gap" in your armor. That being said, would this fighting stance still be a wise choice in a civilan / defensive situation ... where a "civilian" does not wear a body armor? I am not trying to be a hard ass or anything. I am just truly interested to find out what other merits said stance has in a defensive / non- military or LEO application. Thanks. |
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With a handgun, I am very square. Both arms extended, left slightly more straight than the right, shoulders relaxed. I do this cause its comfortable, and effective- not because its what the cool guys do.
Carbine...whatever I feel comfortable with. Being completely square isn't very comfortable. I just work with whatever happens to be most comfortable. My body is usually slightly angled, similar to yours. But I keep the stock higher, arms in. |
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right eye dominant here...shoot right handed...hold magwell w/ left hand while right is on grip/trigger....i stand somewhat squared while tucking in the elbows, nose to charging handle, w/ left leg a little out in front of the right leg....knees bent to a comfortable position, about shoulders width apart. that's what works for me. also i see this as more of a ready position to move, kind like taking off from starting blocks in track. i always push off w/ my right leg (as i did in track in the blocks) and therefore see this more ideal
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If you are putting rounds on target accurately and consecutively, I don't care if you are using a Yoga stance, you're doing it right.
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Not to step out of my lane, but I once had an instructor explain that this provides protection regardless, being as your chest vitals are symmetircal and in line with one another when your body is bladed to the target. IE, you turn, and the same round can skip through both lungs and your heart. Square up, and if they don't hit you dead center mass, you have a better survivability chance. That's what I was told, anyway. YMMV. |
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Hmmm ... that sounds logical .... thanks. |
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As near as I can tell, the "square yourself to the target" mentality comes from the need to hide the holes in your armor where your arms protrude.
To shoot well and stable, you basically want to point your body's focus at the target while retaining a good, ballanced stance. I like a high and narrow forward martial arts (shotokan) stance, personally, as it's what I'm used to. I shoot as well as my 20/45 w/ astigmatism eye sight will let me. |
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The reason you square to the target has a few answers. The main one being if you have a plate on any center mass hits will hit the plate. If you are sideways the plate isnt going to do anything for you. Another reason is balance. If you take up a classic side stance you dont have good balance front to back. A good, low profile squared up stance gives you 360 balance. You can also execute turning movements better. If you are making yourself a low profile being squared the person shooting at you has less of a target to hit. If you try to do a low profile standing sideways the way the body bends they still see everything just lower to the ground. It does take some getting used to. In my unit we used to do basic movement drills for hours on end. Ive taken about 10 of the MPRI CQB classes. If I had access to my external HD Id load up some pics of us doing to classes as well as some room clearing. As our instructors always said slow is smooth smooth is fast. Dont do anything faster than you can accurately shoot. All this running around in movies you see isnt realistic. Try getting upper torso shots 100% at 25m with anything more than a quick walk.
EDIT- Oh yeah bend your knees more. Feet pointing as straight foward as you can. Non firing foot slighty ahead of firing foot. You should be able to have your weapon at a 90 degree angle from the plane of your chest. You look a little canted to the right. I have an a4 so I cant help with stock position. Its too long with body armor on. You're going to have to find the right position for you. Try different positions until you find what works for you. |
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I had a guy in a instructor class that would point his elbow out like a skeet shooter, and whatever he shot at he hit. But once corrected he would throw his hits to the left.
If your a new shooter try to learn the right way. If you are a long time shooter do what works. Your shooting stance or rather your fight stance should always be your feet shoulder width apart and almost on the balls of your feet. Like your ready to jump. I square my upperbody to the target but my hips are still bladed to keep my weapon side back. Its easy doing everything with your strong side, try doing it with your support side. I put a shotgun up to my support side shoulder and almost couldn't align the sights. Brother the more classes you take the better you will feel as to what your stance is. |
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With a rifle, my natural point of aim is about 45 degress across my chest where I'm not muscle-fornicating the rifle to hold it, and I tend to squat a bit and lean forward. I look like a freak, but I don't think the target cares. My nose is right against the charging handle, and only about the lower third of the stock is on/in my shoulder. Find what works best for you and stick with it!
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I hate doing that!!! Ewwww... Maybe with irons, but with a an optic, like an Eotech, I think it feels uncomfortable and screws up your eye relief- and mine is mounted in front of the delta ring. |
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For me it depends on what rifle I'm shooting.
Long guns geared towards accuracy and with magnified optics, I use a stance that allows me to use my supporting arm braced against my chest for extra stability. Look at a high power shooter in a standing position to get an idea of the funky assed poses I may take with a rifle for precision shooting at long distance. But my carbine and to a lesser extent my AR10(even though it does have an optic) I will collapse the stock which FORCES me to square up to the target. I can shoot pretty well with the carbine in this stance and the more I use it the more I like it. I think for a squared off stance, having an adjustable stock is pretty critical as it allows you to get that sweet spot that a full stock might not allow. I can shoot the AR10 pretty decently in such a stance as well but it's heavier and a bit more of a pain to do that. Thankfully, the M93 allows me to reset the length of pull so that I can suit it to the stance I want or get it fully outstretched for when I go prone. |
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Yes, I do a little highpower myself. Actually garands and M1A. I've only shot one "official' match but my brother and I practice sometimes. However, I've never shot a match with the AR. Lot of interesting responses. I was hoping I'd get more, especially from people that train regularily, which I know some of you that posted do. Thanks though. I don't know what the heck to think now. I know, get some training. |
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Sir, It all depends on what you're after.
Many of the suggestions are right on target so I won't rehash the good stuff. When I teach the fundamentals of combat shooting, the stance is the same for every weapon excluding the m240. That has enough recoil to make a difference, and requires a weight shift. 1. The stance has to be stable. This includes when you're moving. THe more you move the less shot you get. 2. The stance has to be flexible. You need to be able to react to the environment. Being flexible insures that you'll successfully adapt your stance to a kneeling, lower squatting, or other monkey loving a football shooting position you have to manage while using cover. 3. The stance has to be mobile. Again, the moving thing. Oblique, laterally, and in depth are the ways to go. If you squat a lot, you'll bounce when you run and shoot. Yes, I said run, because that's what most non combat stress innoculated folks do when they get shot at the first few times. Please, just take my word. I didn't say run away, but seeking cover sure does seem important. Your stance will likely be uncofmortable for a while, especially if you're wearing plates and a combat load. Figure out what works for you and meets those three rules. You'll be far ahead of the game and you're shooting will likely improve as well. This isn't marksmanship shooting. At 60 yards, the prone is a good way to go, especially if you have cover. Lastly... the stance goes from the ground up. Feel the ground, curl your toes, and firm up the muscles in your torso, butt, and legs. Not tight, but firm enough to be stable. Try clenching your abs a little too. I bet you'll see a difference in your secondary shots. Good luck. |
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its all opinion. The biggest weakness in body armor isn;t the armor, it your shoulders. Theres little or no armor over your ashoulders, and a shot the the shoulder can go right into the neck or other bad areas.Y Secondly, i never shoot with the stock colapsed. Its just my preference. The stock is colapesed for 2 reasons, either in a vehicle, or clearing a room. And in either situation, i'm prob not aiming all that much, especially in room. All i have to to in CQB is put the front sight post on your chest and let a controled pair out, and i'll get you every time. When a vehicle its machine gun time, and i'm using tracers to get you, every try to aim in a HMMWV when its under way, all you do is get a beat up face from a charging handle popping you in the nose. When i'm aiming, the stock is out and i'm in the best stable position i can get in. For me, my nose never touches the charging handle. As long as the sight picture is good, your good. Groping the charging handle with your nose is a basic training technique that works for new people, but maintaining that as a rule gets silly after a few hundred rounds. But these are just my opinions, take em for what its worth.
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I would have to agree that you'll be using different stances where the necessity dictates. Square up and rifle out at 90 degrees, more on your collar bone, MOUT style... classic highpower or prone when taking multiple targets at longer distances. Whatever works for the moment, IMO.
I disagree with the comments about having to worry about multiple organ injuries if you don't square up. You would need to be almost sideways to your return fire to sustain multiple organ injuries with one shot... and a smaller target is always a better one. If you've trained in one particular fashing for extended periods, trying to change your style to suit someone elses' opinions may be worse than keeping a few bad or odd habits. Muscle memory / instinctive reflexes are more important when it comes down to it. Then again, I haven't trained for a long time, and I'm definitely in need of more drills, so you may take my comments lightly... lol. |
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Yep.. the whole nose on the charging handle thing goes away when you use red dots / EOTechs / or similar. Sight alignment is taken care of so all you need is a sight picture.
I've often wondered why someone would shoot with the stock collapsed, unless they're just short. It seems like the rifle shoulders more naturally with the stock half or more open. Getting shot, even in the vest, isn't a good thing. Move and shoot my brethren, move and shoot. |
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Keep in mind that presumably you are not going to be standing there like a fortified gun emplacement, banging away without moving.
I suspect you can find photos of similar stances used to fire submachineguns before body armor was common. I think that stance tends to make it easy to move and control recoil while firing quickly. Looks like fun |
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Here is what I like about the fighting stance from a purely recreational perspective:
The first is that it is mobile and flexible. You can move while using a fighting stance and you can also swivel your upper torso like a turret to engage targets across a wider angle. The second is that it you have a basic common stance that can be used for hands-on, pistol, shotgun, and rifle. The third is that a lot of the weight is being supported by the large muscles in your back and shoulder instead of the smaller muscles in your arm. This means less fatigue. With a chest rig, armor or other similar outfit on, you can even rest your elbows on the top of your mags and get a nice little platform going based on skeletal support that will still let you move.
Not so much really... that is usually just used to teach the stance initially. The position of your feet isn't really that important to the stance so long as they are stable. Think of the feet like the treads of the tank and the upper torso as the turret. The main thing you are looking for is what jvincent describes. The fighting stance is both mobile and flexible. For a lot of people who haven't had formal training the stable part can be a bit tricky though. What you are trying to do is to get a stance where the muzzle returns to the same position every time. When you pull the trigger, the front sight (or red dot) should rise straight up slightly and the return to the precise place you were aiming before you pulled the trigger. If the sights are climbing towards the 11 o'clock or 1 o'clock angles, then your stance is off. Once you get where you can consistently get the rifle to return to the point of aim after firing, you have a stable stance and you can work on things like rapid shots to the same target, rapid transitions between targets, and moving while maintaining the stable stance. In addition to being a tough skill to acquire without formal training, it is also a perishable skill that needs regular practice to stay sharp. Also little things like muzzle brakes can make a difference because they will often let the rifle return to the same position even if the stance is less than perfect or you have gotten a little sloppy due to lack of practice. |
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FMD, that picture of annie oh, that's sort of how I've been doing my forearm but then when I practice, it seems hanging on to the magwell is actually more stable. It seems. By the way, you're a lucky man.
The problem with me and shooting NTCH is my head is leaning too far forward, then my glasses get in the way. I need to keep it a little more vertical. It can be slanted some but not quite that much. And then there's the stock position. I'm telling you, when I put that sucker in the first position with just a Tshirt on, too close. You have to bend your hand like 90 degrees from the forearm. I don't see how you guys do it. And what's the point anyways? I guess it's that the weight of the gun is closer to your center of gravity, therefore you probably have more control. I don' t know though, seems like wrists weren't meant to be bent that way. A1 stock length for me brother. All the way. I know, I know, that's probably ignorant. As far as friday nights go, I'd love to come. Elizabeth works till 7 and I gotta watch the kids til then. She works a couple of days a week but goes later. I'll see if I could get away sometime. BTW, what pistol have you been runnin with lately? I don't think I ever knew what your favorite is. |
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That was our first class. She's coming around to a magwell hold after 3 years, but you know women...when their mind's made up about something...
Yes I am!
Are you bringing the gun up to your cheek, or your cheek to the gun? You should be doing the former.
As far as the short LOP; if the rifle is brought up to your cheek it's not sitting in the "pocket" of your shoulder like it traditionally would be. My rifle sits on my collar bone about 1/2 way between the end of my shoulder and my sternum. My right (strong side) elbow sits down near the bottom of my ribcage, approximately 1/3 of the way across. *shrugs* It works, and it seems to work for literally everyone I know, unless they're wearing overt armor (and even then it's still good - edit: except for Harv24). As far as the support hand, I think that handguards would optional for me now: I use the magwell as a VFG, and it's very comfortable that way.
Have her start work earlier every other Friday, so you can get some quality time with the boys!
Glock 19
1911. Too bad it's just a BBQ piece now (see sigline). |
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Aaaaah, you went to the darkside. Nothing wrong with Glocks. FWIW, I don't really like my milspec 1911 that much. I might even get rid of it to buy either some more gear or something else.
I'll have to try the collar bone thing. I don't think that's where I'm resting that sucker. I'll tell you what I think after that. |
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why own an adjustible stock, if your gonna leave it collapsed. Mabe my time overseas using these weapons has tainted my persepctive, but i think that people watch too many movies. flame away, flame away.
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I used to not like nose to the charging handle because when you do it on an AR10, they bite. However, it is important for indexing so I do it. Since you can't get a good cheek weld on the ordinary collapsible stock, you can use shoulder position and NTCH to develop a consistent, repeatable hold for accuracy and quick target acquisition. I suppose it is less of an issue with a stock that has a raised cheek pad.
Brak |
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we hold our carbine and stand exactly the same way. My left foot is juat a little bit ahead of my right, and I also like the stock on the first notch with a t-shirt and fully collapsed with a vest on |
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