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Posted: 4/13/2006 6:23:35 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/13/2006 6:24:08 AM EDT by steven_uk]
I'm after a history lesson......

Were M4's first released with 14.5" tubes ?

When did the 16" tubes appear ? Why the increase ?

Which do you prefer ?

Cheers
Steven
Link Posted: 4/13/2006 6:27:18 AM EDT
U.S. military M-4 carbines have 14.5" bbls.
M-Forgeries have 16" bbl to comply with NFA regs.

Mil=14.5"
Civvie=16"
Link Posted: 4/13/2006 6:30:17 AM EDT
Link Posted: 4/13/2006 6:31:52 AM EDT

Originally Posted By steven_uk:
Were M4's first released with 14.5" tubes ?


Yes and they are still are.


When did the 16" tubes appear ? Why the increase ?

Because of the NFA, most people didn't want to bother with the NFA paperwork or with a fixed muzzle device.


Which do you prefer ?

14.5" - it handles better IMHO.
Link Posted: 4/13/2006 6:35:03 AM EDT
14.5 Noveske Afghan with midlenght gas.
Link Posted: 4/13/2006 7:07:26 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/13/2006 7:08:24 AM EDT by captrichardson]
No question the "Standard" USGI Military M4 was issued with a 14.5" Barrel.

That being said there are a number of possible M4 "Variants" Floating around out there in Military Service that do have 16" barrels, as the topic below identifies:
Does the US Military use any form of 16" CARs?



Who makes them, what are the specs on them, how are they issued, which units carry them? Sorry but I don't have those answers yet.

If anyone can help with answers to those questions, please jump in.

Not sure if you are only interested in the M4 Carbines Steven, but the Guide below covers everything up to the M4:
Colt Military Carbines Technical & Historical Guide

Hope this helps,
"Capt Richardson"


Link Posted: 4/13/2006 7:16:40 AM EDT
where does the 14.7" barrel fall into play then????
Link Posted: 4/13/2006 7:18:46 AM EDT
I have a 14.5" and have never noticed before but this weekend I shot it next to my dads 20" sp1. My god the 14.5" is loud. I like it being short but you definately get alot louder. I am thinking about a krinke flaming pig brake
Link Posted: 4/13/2006 7:32:17 AM EDT
yes
whenever AR companies decided it would be the cheapest method to make Carbines; its cheaper and easier to have a finished bbl
16in Middy or a 14.5+ perm Phantom
Link Posted: 4/13/2006 7:36:54 AM EDT
Link Posted: 4/13/2006 7:38:50 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/13/2006 7:42:52 AM EDT by stretch415]
doenst the 14.7 allow A2 FH to be used? I have a CMMG 14.5 w/spacer and a2 FH to bring it to 16". I think they now produce the 14.7 to ditch the spacer and still use the standard A2 FH and be legal 16"

Link Posted: 4/13/2006 7:39:21 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/13/2006 7:40:00 AM EDT by fivepointoh]
so was this to allow for a short FS to be put on to make the legal 16" ??? thx


EDIT: N/M stretch sorta answered my question
Link Posted: 4/13/2006 7:43:44 AM EDT

Originally Posted By fivepointoh:
so was this to allow for a short FS to be put on to make the legal 16" ??? thx


EDIT: N/M stretch sorta answered my question



yes; all comercial made/modified to appeal to the masses!
Link Posted: 4/13/2006 7:51:35 AM EDT
I prefer either the 14.5" carbine length gas system or the 16" mid-length gas system. The reason being is so a bayonet can be used. Why do I need a bayonet? Because for ten years Bill Clinton wouldn't let me have one.
Link Posted: 4/13/2006 9:31:29 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/13/2006 9:32:12 AM EDT by SirSqueeboo]

Originally Posted By Gary-G23:
Why do I need a bayonet? Because for ten years Bill Clinton wouldn't let me have one.



+1
Link Posted: 4/13/2006 9:41:19 AM EDT

Originally Posted By captrichardson:
No question the "Standard" USGI Military M4 was issued with a 14.5" Barrel.

That being said there are a number of possible M4 "Variants" Floating around out there in Military Service that do have 16" barrels, as the topic below identifies:
Does the US Military use any form of 16" CARs?



Who makes them, what are the specs on them, how are they issued, which units carry them? Sorry but I don't have those answers yet.

If anyone can help with answers to those questions, please jump in.

Not sure if you are only interested in the M4 Carbines Steven, but the Guide below covers everything up to the M4:
Colt Military Carbines Technical & Historical Guide

Hope this helps,
"Capt Richardson"





That upper was more than likely privately purchased or a Gov't CC purchase from a private vendor. My little brother is a USAF TACP and does a lot of 'procurement' that way. He calls me for advice on rails, optics etc since he's not really a gun guy. Some of the stuff he originally had was Vietnam vintage upper and lower receivers with 14.5" M4 barrels etc. He's in Germany now and was recently issued a real Colt M4A1.
Link Posted: 4/13/2006 9:55:15 AM EDT

Originally Posted By captrichardson:


Who makes them, what are the specs on them, how are they issued, which units carry them? Sorry but I don't have those answers yet.






They are brought from home or some other type of procurement. They are not even close to USGI.
Link Posted: 4/13/2006 10:32:01 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/13/2006 10:33:56 AM EDT by EricCartmanR1]

Originally Posted By captrichardson:
No question the "Standard" USGI Military M4 was issued with a 14.5" Barrel.

That being said there are a number of possible M4 "Variants" Floating around out there in Military Service that do have 16" barrels, as the topic below identifies:
Does the US Military use any form of 16" CARs?

i36.photobucket.com/albums/e30/captcarbine/Misc/M4with16.jpg

Who makes them, what are the specs on them, how are they issued, which units carry them? Sorry but I don't have those answers yet.

If anyone can help with answers to those questions, please jump in.

Not sure if you are only interested in the M4 Carbines Steven, but the Guide below covers everything up to the M4:
Colt Military Carbines Technical & Historical Guide

Hope this helps,
"Capt Richardson"






I recognize the lightning bolt. I believe that is the 25th ID. Those guys are hardcore, had a guy in my unit that served in the 25th and he use to brag about them all the time. They don't get the glory that some of the other Army units, but they are (were?) considered Light Infantry and they are bad ass. Is quite possible that those are gov't issue 16" M4's, as I can imagine those guys getting all the good shit first.
Link Posted: 4/13/2006 10:37:20 AM EDT

Originally Posted By bigbore:
Given the choice, I'll always take 16".



+1

" Today class, we are going to discuss the primary wounding mechanism of the standard 5.56 round....."
Link Posted: 4/13/2006 10:51:49 AM EDT
Link Posted: 4/13/2006 11:06:39 AM EDT
Depends on how you want to define "USGI"?

That used to be real easy, NSN 1005-01-029-3866 was a Model 653, NSN 1005-01-376-7245 was a Model 727, etc. Based on that NSN you knew exactly what configuration it should be in, and exactly what it should look like.

Now, NSN 1005-01-382-0953 may start off as an “Stock or Basic” M4A1, but then you add the SOPMOD Components, Unit Level Purchases, and/or Unit Level Modifications, and then you may find that what started off as NSN 1005-01-382-0953 no longer has a common configuration or appearance. Technically the result would still be “USGI”, because everything came from, or through, Military Channels.

IMHO, the term “USGI” as it was defined about 15-20 years ago, and as it would be defined today, may not mean the same thing.

If the Soldier pictured above bought that Upper on his own from a Civilian Source, or built it on his own using Civilian Components, then there is no question that it would not be “USGI”.

However if that Upper was purchased by his Unit, or built by his Unit, and then issued to him, then IMHO “Technically” it would be “USGI”.

Given that there are a number of these “M4s” with 16” Barrels pictured in the hands of these troops with the 25th ID, then I would guess the Uppers with 16” Barrels may have been a “Unit Level” purchase or build. Per my earlier post in that Topic, I suspect that these are issued to their “Shooters” as part of a “SDM or DMR Program”.

I guess this in part could come down to, do you call it a Tomato or Tamoto, Potato or Patoto!

I am trying to make some contacts with 25th ID to see if these are Unit Issue Carbines. I have a hard time believing that individual troops are going as far as swapping out complete uppers in the field, so I would bet that these are some type of “Unit Level Issue”.

If anyone does have any 25th ID connections, and can get the scoop on these, then please let us know.

Thanks,
“Capt Richardson”
Link Posted: 4/13/2006 11:16:06 AM EDT

Originally Posted By EricCartmanR1:

Originally Posted By captrichardson:
No question the "Standard" USGI Military M4 was issued with a 14.5" Barrel.

That being said there are a number of possible M4 "Variants" Floating around out there in Military Service that do have 16" barrels, as the topic below identifies:
Does the US Military use any form of 16" CARs?

i36.photobucket.com/albums/e30/captcarbine/Misc/M4with16.jpg

Who makes them, what are the specs on them, how are they issued, which units carry them? Sorry but I don't have those answers yet.

If anyone can help with answers to those questions, please jump in.

Not sure if you are only interested in the M4 Carbines Steven, but the Guide below covers everything up to the M4:
Colt Military Carbines Technical & Historical Guide

Hope this helps,
"Capt Richardson"






I recognize the lightning bolt. I believe that is the 25th ID. Those guys are hardcore, had a guy in my unit that served in the 25th and he use to brag about them all the time. They don't get the glory that some of the other Army units, but they are (were?) considered Light Infantry and they are bad ass. Is quite possible that those are gov't issue 16" M4's, as I can imagine those guys getting all the good shit first.



Your right, they are 1st SBCT, 25th ID. Their stationed at Fort Lewis and replaced my brigade in Iraq, 3rd SBCT, 2nd ID. 3rd SBCT was the first unit to be formed into a SBCT. The strkyer units are pretty flexable, we can configure our kit with non-issue products (my kit is all made by tactailor), and depending on the chain of command certain mods can be made to the weapon (I use a personal vltor modstock). Might not be gov't issue, more than likely off the shelf purchase by the unit or personal issue.
Link Posted: 4/13/2006 12:14:40 PM EDT
Excellent, thanks for all the info, much appreciated.



Cheers
Steven
Link Posted: 4/13/2006 12:16:54 PM EDT

Originally Posted By captrichardson:
No question the "Standard" USGI Military M4 was issued with a 14.5" Barrel.

That being said there are a number of possible M4 "Variants" Floating around out there in Military Service that do have 16" barrels, as the topic below identifies:
Does the US Military use any form of 16" CARs?

i36.photobucket.com/albums/e30/captcarbine/Misc/M4with16.jpg

Who makes them, what are the specs on them, how are they issued, which units carry them? Sorry but I don't have those answers yet.

If anyone can help with answers to those questions, please jump in.

Not sure if you are only interested in the M4 Carbines Steven, but the Guide below covers everything up to the M4:
Colt Military Carbines Technical & Historical Guide

Hope this helps,
"Capt Richardson"




At a glance, this soldier has a few COTS pieces

The rail

The mag coupler

The gas block

(and is that a competition Dr optic at 10 o'clock on his rail)

Obviously an ARFCOMM-er in his down time!!
Link Posted: 4/13/2006 12:48:09 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/13/2006 12:50:50 PM EDT by captrichardson]
If you look the photos below, it appears to me that there are at least 3, if not 4, of these Carbines that have this Gas Block and Handguard Setup.









That being the case, it either means that all 3 or 4 of these troops got together and ordered or built these Uppers to the same configuration, or these Uppers were issued to them by the Unit.

Also interesting to note that some of these have the Collapsing Stocks, and some have the Fixed Stocks. Obviously they are allowing for personal preference with these.

Thanks to everyone for all the feedback and input,
"Capt Richardson"
Link Posted: 4/13/2006 1:02:41 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/13/2006 1:05:35 PM EDT by Mb121]

Originally Posted By redfisher:

Originally Posted By captrichardson:
No question the "Standard" USGI Military M4 was issued with a 14.5" Barrel.

That being said there are a number of possible M4 "Variants" Floating around out there in Military Service that do have 16" barrels, as the topic below identifies:
Does the US Military use any form of 16" CARs?

i36.photobucket.com/albums/e30/captcarbine/Misc/M4with16.jpg

Who makes them, what are the specs on them, how are they issued, which units carry them? Sorry but I don't have those answers yet.

If anyone can help with answers to those questions, please jump in.

Not sure if you are only interested in the M4 Carbines Steven, but the Guide below covers everything up to the M4:
Colt Military Carbines Technical & Historical Guide

Hope this helps,
"Capt Richardson"




At a glance, this soldier has a few COTS pieces

The rail

The mag coupler

The gas block

(and is that a competition Dr optic at 10 o'clock on his rail)

Obviously an ARFCOMM-er in his down time!!



Negative, that looks to be the the thumb switch for the PAC4.
Link Posted: 4/13/2006 1:15:11 PM EDT
All of them also have bi-pods, which are only issued to squad designated marksmen. My guess is thats exactly what they are, squad designated marksmen. It was probably used in the interim before the high-tuned M16A4 DMR was fielded.
Link Posted: 4/13/2006 3:22:02 PM EDT

Originally Posted By captrichardson:
Depends on how you want to define "USGI"?

That used to be real easy, NSN 1005-01-029-3866 was a Model 653, NSN 1005-01-376-7245 was a Model 727, etc. Based on that NSN you knew exactly what configuration it should be in, and exactly what it should look like.

Now, NSN 1005-01-382-0953 may start off as an “Stock or Basic” M4A1, but then you add the SOPMOD Components, Unit Level Purchases, and/or Unit Level Modifications, and then you may find that what started off as NSN 1005-01-382-0953 no longer has a common configuration or appearance. Technically the result would still be “USGI”, because everything came from, or through, Military Channels.

IMHO, the term “USGI” as it was defined about 15-20 years ago, and as it would be defined today, may not mean the same thing.

If the Soldier pictured above bought that Upper on his own from a Civilian Source, or built it on his own using Civilian Components, then there is no question that it would not be “USGI”.

However if that Upper was purchased by his Unit, or built by his Unit, and then issued to him, then IMHO “Technically” it would be “USGI”.

Given that there are a number of these “M4s” with 16” Barrels pictured in the hands of these troops with the 25th ID, then I would guess the Uppers with 16” Barrels may have been a “Unit Level” purchase or build. Per my earlier post in that Topic, I suspect that these are issued to their “Shooters” as part of a “SDM or DMR Program”.

I guess this in part could come down to, do you call it a Tomato or Tamoto, Potato or Patoto!

I am trying to make some contacts with 25th ID to see if these are Unit Issue Carbines. I have a hard time believing that individual troops are going as far as swapping out complete uppers in the field, so I would bet that these are some type of “Unit Level Issue”.

If anyone does have any 25th ID connections, and can get the scoop on these, then please let us know.

Thanks,
“Capt Richardson”



Correct,

When I consider USGI, take it as anything that has an NSN.

I doubt these 16" bbls have an NSN.
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