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Posted: 4/6/2006 5:54:33 PM EDT
presently i have a mini 14 and have been, to date, dissappointed with its accuracy. i have generally eschewed the ar for, what are probably, the standard reasons: the direct gas action fouling issues and the floating charging handle/ bolt assist arrangement that seems like a solution for a problem that never existed with a more conventional handle on the bolt carrier or operating rod. i have also heard that these actions are EXTREMELY sensitive to any foriegn matter and that soldiers in the field have been trained to clean their weapons (recievers) every time they stop moving.

my own experience is limited with these weapons. but i'm starting to gain a little more of an open attitude with the seemingly acceptable performance of the ar in iraq and afghanistan and some articles i've read about torture tests.

what i would like to hear are some testimonials on torture tests. how difficult/ vital is the cleaning of the bolt carrier? how many rounds can be fired between cleanings? i'd like to hear some accuracy testimonials for carbine and full rifle uppers (not match, just the "standard issue"). if i do end up getting into ar's i would probably build my own. my criteria for accuracy is 2 moa. if anyone can tell me what to watch out for in buying parts for such a build up, that would help too.

i would like to hear some rifle vs. carbine arguments, in addition.

thank you in advance.
Link Posted: 4/6/2006 6:03:05 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/6/2006 6:04:44 PM EDT by HardShell]

Originally Posted By bollox:
... i would like to hear some rifle vs. carbine arguments...



This is Arfcom, so you're more likely to hear "GET BOTH!"


But WELCOME, friend... you've come to the right place!
Link Posted: 4/6/2006 6:17:38 PM EDT
IMO, the AR15 is easy to clean and I actually find it fun.



16" Barrel, Full Length Forearm and I only wish that I had a riflel length sight though... It gives the best of both worlds.

Nathan

Link Posted: 4/6/2006 6:17:47 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/6/2006 6:19:39 PM EDT by jaymeister99]
Dont believe the hype.


Originally Posted By bollox:
presently i have a mini 14 and have been, to date, dissappointed with its accuracy. i have generally eschewed the ar for, what are probably, the standard reasons: the direct gas action fouling issues



The AR does not (contrary to popular legend) need to be constantly cleaned to function properly. It does get dirty from the direct gas system, but so does an AK with the long stroke system too.


floating charging handle/ bolt assist arrangement that seems like a solution for a problem that never existed with a more conventional handle on the bolt carrier or operating rod.


The only problem I have ever heard is the charging handle bending when its been pulled back. But franky you have to be jackass to accomplish this. I saw somebody pull the charging hadle back and up, it will get bent. But extremely rare and difficult to do. If you are really worried about it, get a steel charging handle.



i have also heard that these actions are EXTREMELY sensitive to any foriegn matter and that soldiers in the field have been trained to clean their weapons (recievers) every time they stop moving.


No thats simply not true. If we were talking about an original M16 in 1965 in Vietnam then maybe. But not with any AR-15 you will be buying, new or used. In nam the original M16 had crap ball ammo, no cleaning kit, and didnt have chrome bore. These factors together combined with the insane jungle humidity caused the fouling and jamming. These probs have since been long remedied.


what i would like to hear are some testimonials on torture tests. how difficult/ vital is the cleaning of the bolt carrier? how many rounds can be fired between cleanings?


Im sure people will post here about lots of torture tests, do a search and you will come up with something. But heres the one for me that took the cake. When the M-16A2 was adopted (the Ar-15s commercially available are the same but in semi-auto) there was a test in IIRC American Rifleman. They fired continuously rapid fire 2,000 rounds. Not one misfire, jam, fouling, fail to feed, and no cleaning. NOT ONE SINGLE PROBLEM.

As for the 16" vs 20" etc, ask around here, loads of people will give you the two cents. If you are considering accuracy then go with a stainless barrel. I get sub 1" with good ammo. On a standard barrel dont expect much better than 2". Actually more like 2.5" is realistic, despite what you will hear on the boards here.
Link Posted: 4/6/2006 6:20:18 PM EDT

Originally Posted By jaymeister99:
Dont believe the hype.


Originally Posted By bollox:
presently i have a mini 14 and have been, to date, dissappointed with its accuracy. i have generally eschewed the ar for, what are probably, the standard reasons: the direct gas action fouling issues



The AR does not (contrary to popular legend) need to be constantly cleaned to function properly. It does get dirty from the direct gas system, but so does an AK with the long stroke system too.


floating charging handle/ bolt assist arrangement that seems like a solution for a problem that never existed with a more conventional handle on the bolt carrier or operating rod.


The only problem I have ever heard is the charging handle bending when its been pulled back. But franky you have to be jackass to accomplish this. I saw somebody pull the charging hadle back and up, it will get bent. But extremely rare and difficult to do. If you are really worried about it, get a steel charging handle.



i have also heard that these actions are EXTREMELY sensitive to any foriegn matter and that soldiers in the field have been trained to clean their weapons (recievers) every time they stop moving.


No thats simply not true. If we were talking about an original M16 in 1965 in Vietnam then maybe. But not with any AR-15 you will be buying, new or used. In nam the original M16 had crap ball ammo, no cleaning kit, and didnt have chrome bore. These factors together combined with the insane jungle humidity caused the fouling and jamming. These probs have since been long remedied.


what i would like to hear are some testimonials on torture tests. how difficult/ vital is the cleaning of the bolt carrier? how many rounds can be fired between cleanings?


Im sure people will post here about lots of torture tests, do a search and you will come up with something. But heres the one for me that took the cake. When the M-16A2 was adopted (the Ar-15s commercially available are the same but in semi-auto) there was a test in IIRC American Rifleman. They fired continuously rapid fire 2,000 rounds. Not one misfire, jam, fouling, fail to feed, and no cleaning. NOT ONE SINGLE PROBLEM.

As for the 16" vs 20" etc, ask around here, loads of people will give you the two cents. If you are considering accuracy then go with a stainless barrel. I get sub 1" with good ammo. On a standard barrel dont expect much better than 2". Actually more like 2.5" is realistic, despite what you will hear on the boards here.



+1 don't listen to morons at the gunshop.
Link Posted: 4/6/2006 6:34:24 PM EDT
some people just want to put it down for stupid reasons.they seem to think it is the same weapon as when it was first designed.of course it had problems, big deal. I have had some one tell me you can get shot 5 or 6 times with an AR and be fine, but then again that person wouldn't take a shot or 2.if it was so bad we would not STILL be using it or have so many of them out there.don't listen to idiots they can't back the bullshit up.
Link Posted: 4/6/2006 6:39:08 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 20iner:

Originally Posted By jaymeister99:
Dont believe the hype.


Originally Posted By bollox:
presently i have a mini 14 and have been, to date, dissappointed with its accuracy. i have generally eschewed the ar for, what are probably, the standard reasons: the direct gas action fouling issues



The AR does not (contrary to popular legend) need to be constantly cleaned to function properly. It does get dirty from the direct gas system, but so does an AK with the long stroke system too.


floating charging handle/ bolt assist arrangement that seems like a solution for a problem that never existed with a more conventional handle on the bolt carrier or operating rod.


The only problem I have ever heard is the charging handle bending when its been pulled back. But franky you have to be jackass to accomplish this. I saw somebody pull the charging hadle back and up, it will get bent. But extremely rare and difficult to do. If you are really worried about it, get a steel charging handle.



i have also heard that these actions are EXTREMELY sensitive to any foriegn matter and that soldiers in the field have been trained to clean their weapons (recievers) every time they stop moving.


No thats simply not true. If we were talking about an original M16 in 1965 in Vietnam then maybe. But not with any AR-15 you will be buying, new or used. In nam the original M16 had crap ball ammo, no cleaning kit, and didnt have chrome bore. These factors together combined with the insane jungle humidity caused the fouling and jamming. These probs have since been long remedied.


what i would like to hear are some testimonials on torture tests. how difficult/ vital is the cleaning of the bolt carrier? how many rounds can be fired between cleanings?


Im sure people will post here about lots of torture tests, do a search and you will come up with something. But heres the one for me that took the cake. When the M-16A2 was adopted (the Ar-15s commercially available are the same but in semi-auto) there was a test in IIRC American Rifleman. They fired continuously rapid fire 2,000 rounds. Not one misfire, jam, fouling, fail to feed, and no cleaning. NOT ONE SINGLE PROBLEM.

As for the 16" vs 20" etc, ask around here, loads of people will give you the two cents. If you are considering accuracy then go with a stainless barrel. I get sub 1" with good ammo. On a standard barrel dont expect much better than 2". Actually more like 2.5" is realistic, despite what you will hear on the boards here.



+1 don't listen to morons at the gunshop.



+2
Link Posted: 4/6/2006 6:45:02 PM EDT
I have put over 1k down the pipe of my Bushmaster M4 clone with no cleaning just to see. Noproblems here. I stayed away for years because I listened to the AK crowd, now I am educated on this weapons platform. Jump in and build/ buy you one, and catch the BRD.
Link Posted: 4/6/2006 9:05:14 PM EDT
Mini 14's are cheap. Many people have them because they can not afford an AR. As soon as their income increases they buy an AR (and keep the Mini 14). Drop your preconcieved ideas about the AR and begin shooting one. You will love it. 16" uppers seem to be the first choice for many here.
Link Posted: 4/6/2006 9:25:07 PM EDT


You should easily be able to fire thousands of rounds in an AR between cleanings. People on this site do it all the time.

It is mechanically the same (other than full-auto obviously) as the M16, which is a modern military battlefield firearm that is used by MANY countries, including the U.S. obviously. Keep in mind that some nations - wealthy, modern western countries (like Denmark and Holland) - have adopted the M16/M4 system for their militaries recently (during the last decade) despite many other systems being available. Those countries had the funds to pick ANY modern combat firearm, and they still picked the M16 system, after rigorous tests and comparisons to other systems. That should tell you much more that some vague hearsay and rumors about how it is reliable.



If you take an AR and an AK and shove sticky mud and sand directly into the action, which one is going to fail first? Probably the AR. But 99% of use - even on the battlefield - doesn't occur in those conditions, and the AR15/M16 system is a very reliable one.
Link Posted: 4/6/2006 9:56:48 PM EDT
I am very impressed with the reliability of my AR. Its only a few weeks old, and only got 220 rounds through it, and I'm a cleanin freek, but it hasn't jammed once. My AK is also very relaible. Over 1000 rounds, and one jam. I've shot that gun until it got so hot that the wood on the handguard started to burn, and rain was sizzling when it hit the barrel. I wouldn't do that to my AR (not that I don't think it could) but it was just to expensive to tear up.

Buy an AR!
Link Posted: 4/6/2006 10:13:36 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/7/2006 6:04:29 AM EDT by Papppy]
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