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Posted: 4/3/2006 3:50:30 PM EDT
I love Bushmaster but looking through the new catalog..barrel assemblies complete,uppers I mean come on even their 6 posisition telestock is so expensive id rather throw in the $40 extra for a colt assembly..and with the increased prices perhaps F marked FSBs on their flat tops,parkerizing under the FSB and individualy MP inspected parts is the order of the day.If your gonna increase prices and charge premeium prices offer something in return.Hell eagle fire arms in CO can do a complete upper for like $80 less and so can legal transfers and those 2 places use quality parts equal or better than Bushmaster.I love Bushmaster but stop price gouging.I mean with alot of companies doing rifles..hell CMMG does a complete rifle cheaper and they MP inspect everrything use feedramps,1/7 barrels etc,
Link Posted: 4/3/2006 3:56:59 PM EDT
Ummm You get what you pay for with brand name ARs.
Link Posted: 4/3/2006 3:59:11 PM EDT
Link Posted: 4/3/2006 4:01:34 PM EDT
Lets take LPKs$70 at Bushmaster 10 less else where for just as good parts,hell pete is selling complet flat top uppers for like $80 less..all Im saying if they are gonna raise prices there are some things that can be improved on..parkerize the barrel before the FSB goes on,give the proper FSB with a flat top,and MP inspect on an individual basis barrels,bolts and carriers..if your gonna pay more you should get a little more.
Link Posted: 4/3/2006 4:01:54 PM EDT
That catalog is MSRP.......never pay MSRP.

Most MFGs who put out a catalog and sell online charge MSRP in order to keep their dealers happy.

Dealer isn't going to stock Bushmaster guns or parts if the company website competes on price.

Link Posted: 4/3/2006 4:02:53 PM EDT

Originally Posted By cpt_en_ca:
That catalog is MSRP.......never pay MSRP.

Most MFGs who put out a catalog and sell online charge MSRP in order to keep their dealers happy.

Dealer isn't going to stock Bushmaster guns or parts if the company website competes on price.




Exactly.
Link Posted: 4/3/2006 4:03:43 PM EDT
Depends on the pistol and when you can get an RRA rifle for like $860 I think thats a steal.I still think its consumer gouging.
Link Posted: 4/3/2006 4:05:48 PM EDT
The AR business is one of the most cutthroat of all gun markets. Margins are low. Don't bitch about it, there is nothing anyone can do.
Link Posted: 4/3/2006 4:05:48 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/3/2006 4:08:50 PM EDT by pun]
MSRP for complete rifles..what about parts?Ill spend $63 for a LPK before I pay $70 plus expensive shipping.Complete rifles aside like anything else the money is in parts and accesories..look at their parts prices its terrible I think.Even though is MSRP that still drives up the retail price..ARs around my way Bushmaster in particular have gone up $75 more from a week ago.
Link Posted: 4/3/2006 4:08:29 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/3/2006 4:08:49 PM EDT by Scotter260]
Voted No.

While expensive I think the prices are reasonable, now an $800 Sig pistol, that's out of control.

I like Sig pistols but my thinking is if I can get a semi-auto copy of a military style rifle in a military caliber, that's where the smart money is. Once I'm satiated on that level, I'll move on to overly priced, but excellent pistols.

IMHO,
Scott
Link Posted: 4/3/2006 4:09:15 PM EDT
I found an RRA A2 for $738,I think that's fair.New.
Link Posted: 4/3/2006 4:09:42 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/3/2006 4:12:00 PM EDT by pun]
I agree thats alot for a pistol.And Im saying if your gonna charge more then the carbines should come with M4 handguards,proper parkerizing and properly MP inspected parts.If I had to now choose between a $1200 Bushmaster and a Colt LE6920 Id take the Colt.
Link Posted: 4/3/2006 4:10:30 PM EDT

Originally Posted By pun:
Depends on the pistol and when you can get an RRA rifle for like $860 I think thats a steal.I still think its consumer gouging.




Aim Surplus: Bushmaster M4 A3

$859.95




Bushmaster Catalog: SUGGESTED RETAIL

$ 1230.00
Link Posted: 4/3/2006 4:10:59 PM EDT
Keep on mind, they have to pay for heat, electricity, and shipping (more fuel related expenses), and all of the above have gone up considerably in the last year. And yes, the parts are MSRP too.
Link Posted: 4/3/2006 4:14:55 PM EDT
Thats what I mean though..if you order from the catalog you pay the price listed MSRP or not...its just a shame to do that thats all Im saying.I buy alot of parts and if I have to buy a barrel from them its alot to pay from what they used to charge especialy with shipping.
Link Posted: 4/3/2006 4:14:58 PM EDT
Capitalism = Charge what you like, sell what you can - or - Discount and sell a few more for less.

(We lose a little on every deal, but make it up in volume, lol)

Since it's not loaves of bread at a company store, feel free to spend your money where you like.
Link Posted: 4/3/2006 4:15:55 PM EDT

Originally Posted By gus:
Keep on mind, they have to pay for heat, electricity, and shipping (more fuel related expenses), and all of the above have gone up considerably in the last year. And yes, the parts are MSRP too.



Don't forget liability insurance. That has been going up in recent years as well.
Link Posted: 4/3/2006 4:18:53 PM EDT

Originally Posted By pun:
Thats what I mean though..if you order from the catalog you pay the price listed MSRP or not...its just a shame to do that thats all Im saying.I buy alot of parts and if I have to buy a barrel from them its alot to pay from what they used to charge especialy with shipping.




They are doing you a favor by allowing you to buy at MSRP from the catalog. Most MFGs don't sell direct at all. In fact, I would not be surprised if BM decided not to sell to the public. It would be interesting to see what their direct sales are compared to dealer sales. At some point, it is more better to concentrate on making them instead of selling them.
Link Posted: 4/3/2006 4:21:31 PM EDT
Any manufacture's catalog states "list" prices or as some call it MSRP. That doesn't mean that's what the product sells for on the street. I just purchased a Bushmaster "Patrolman" model which had a MSRP of $1230. I paid $860 and received a lifetime warranty to boot.
Link Posted: 4/3/2006 4:35:37 PM EDT
Expensive compared to what? A POS AK for $300?
Link Posted: 4/3/2006 4:45:54 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/3/2006 4:47:01 PM EDT by HELOBRAVO]
I came across this today (and I'm sure someone will look down there nose about it) and it's really more than most posters on this board will ever really need and will more than sufficient for a base SHTF rifle, esp for a family "hand out" rifle. I'm thinking about buying two.Atlantic AR
Link Posted: 4/3/2006 4:50:35 PM EDT
Link Posted: 4/3/2006 4:59:29 PM EDT
Expensive compared say to RRA rifles carried by pete in NH or made by him same for eagle firearms in CO..or CMMG wich makes a hell of a nice rifle...companies that sell ARs cheap like say aim surplus Im sure they are able to do that because of how many they buy from their distributor.Its just lousy say if you had to buy direct from them because you couldnt get it anywhere....they dont need to be increasing prices like that every year.And some of the things they dont do in their quality control that should be done like parkerizing a barrel before the FSB goes on..to me when they do that its cutting a corner..or you buy a carbine and then have to buy M4 handguards or an aluminum trigger guard..these things should be standard..so you get a Bushy carbine for say $860 and then you have to get M4 handguards,aluminum triggerguard..already $50 more added in standard parts that should already be on it or say an H buffer in the stock...thats just with parts that say some one will upgrade to just to have a standard basic Carbine that has parts that are being used as standard.
Link Posted: 4/3/2006 4:59:59 PM EDT
It's funny. Used are going down and new are going up. Go figure.
Link Posted: 4/3/2006 5:01:16 PM EDT
To Bravo Company I agree...hell you sell some quality parts alot cheaper
Link Posted: 4/3/2006 5:06:19 PM EDT

Originally Posted By JoseyWales:
It's funny. Used are going down and new are going up. Go figure.



I would say its because, on this site at least, people really into ARs build them. In addition, you have a plethora of vendors offering very good parts. You can build a basic rifle with quality parts for much less then purchasing any complete rifle. The AR is stupid simple to put together. Yet people selling complete rifles always tack on a huge premium. So they have to keep dropping the price until someone will buy it.
Link Posted: 4/3/2006 5:14:32 PM EDT
Link Posted: 4/3/2006 5:19:53 PM EDT

Originally Posted By BravoCompanyUSA:
Another factor that effects the pricing of complete rifles is the FET (Federal Excise Tax).

The rifle that sells for approx $1000 has approx $110 of pure tax built into the sale price. That is a pretty good chunk of change. That tax does not apply to the purchase of parts separately.



And in theory, someone selling a complete rifle they bought complete, is also tacking on that price. Then there is the cost of assembly.

So a vendor has to offer a complete rifle or complete sum of parts which offers something you cant get as seperate pieces.

Kind of like this one vendor who wont sell their awesome barrels by themselves, they only come on an upper or completely stripped. So you are forced to buy the complete upper.
Link Posted: 4/3/2006 5:20:57 PM EDT
Hell, even gunshow prices have fallen.

It's currently cheaper to buy a parts gun than a factory gun b/c of excise tax and mark up potential.

I tell anyone who asks me that it's better to buy a complete factory AR off the internet than from a gunshop. My local gunshop does transfers for $25 for the same AR he has on the shelf.

He isn't opposed to someone saving $100 by shopping online. That's rare.

HS1
Link Posted: 4/3/2006 5:26:08 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/3/2006 5:26:46 PM EDT by BravoCompanyUSA]
Link Posted: 4/3/2006 5:30:29 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/3/2006 5:39:23 PM EDT by Foxtrot427]
Oh god yes! For a gun only less common than Ak variants, they cost limbs. They are common because they are great firearms and pack a great punch. An amazing amount of power for one carbine or rifle. But when I can find a basic AR-15 for well over a thousand dollars, thats wild. There are very little $500 or less options. None really. The Olympic Arms Plinker is the cheapest complete AR out there and it retails at $600. You could get one hell of an AK for that. Or you could get a nice FAL that can reach out football fields farther than an AR and still be effective (they call .223s poodleshooters for a reasion) while it is much simpler to clean and requires less cleaning. Of all the companies who seem to mark up I would say RRA and Bushy do it the most. They are undeniably powerful and fine guns but when the cheapest .223 bushmaster costs just under $1000, thats crazy. I cant even begin to say how much I want a bushmaster 16" modular carbine but at over $1700 (of course you could find one for around 12 hundred), thats going to be tough for a while. Again, the things Id do for one. My dream AR (not counting tacticool goodies) would be a sun devil lower 2 stage trigger magpul stock and bushy 16" mod upper. Damn that would cost alot. I wish I wasnt a car guy or they wouldnt seem so expensive when you are buying mods too.

Again, Im not bashing ARs. I love them! The US military uses them for a reasion. Besides lots of guns are overpriced. Look at all HKs. Look at the PS90 and FS2000. Im sure the SCAR will come out at an astronomical price too ( I WILL buy one though). They could use FALs if they wanted but they dont.

I do have a stupid question. Do I need to have stripped lowers and rifle kits (a 16" del-ton specifically) sent to an FFL dealer?
Link Posted: 4/3/2006 5:31:46 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Teknic:
Think how much you get for $1000. I think the prices are a steal if you ask me. A pistol costs as much as a standard AR.




That, right there is a key point.

Goddam right, I consider a far more useful and enjoyable weapon like an AR15 to be quite reasonable when you think of what the prices are for M1911s(Kimbers, SA Loadeds, etc) HKs, SIGs and the like.
How or why? I have no idea.
I don't pay that for pistols.
Link Posted: 4/3/2006 5:37:42 PM EDT
I felt $899.00 for this Bushmaster was fair. I think $1,200 for a DCM is also fair.

http://www.bushmaster.com/shopping/weapons/Images/pcwa2s20c.jpg
Link Posted: 4/3/2006 5:42:11 PM EDT

Originally Posted By pun:
Depends on the pistol and when you can get an RRA rifle for like $860 I think thats a steal.I still think its consumer gouging.



With so many other options, consumers are not willingly gouged. Basic econ says Bushmaster is capturing a certain percentage of the market of willing buyers. Econ also says that prices at Bushmaster would fall if they felt it was in their own competitive interest to adjust them. It's nearly impossible to "gouge" prices in a commodity market. And the AR is a commodity if there ever was one in the gun world, so manufacturers try to differentiate themselves in different ways. If a feature can be offered as "value added", then maintaining a higher price might be the right strategy.

It cannot be assumed that the market for an AR15 should be set at some base level by all manufacturers, since each has a different reason for pricing their products. The low price leader has to give up something to maintain the cost advantage.
Link Posted: 4/3/2006 5:42:20 PM EDT
In all fairness though you could build a standard 1911 for $400 and maybe a bit under that.I agree that a equal quality AR can be built and cheaper than a factory rifle.Lot f good points by all.and info..Damn fed excise tax sucks..maybe thats why like was said in another thread on FFLs that you have to sell also or youve lied on the FFL application.If you buy at cost just for yourself the feds probably feel they are being cheated considering what they get on the excise tax.
Link Posted: 4/3/2006 5:47:04 PM EDT
Prices follow demand, The military has increased demand, but so has the private sector. The more people buying the better. If another attempt at a AWB comes up, and it probably will, there hopefully will be more people willing to fight it. Does anyone know if NRA memberships are on the rise, or decline? I know several people who have bought ARs recently, that normaly wouldn't have considered it, and IMO After 9-11 people who may not have had an interest in ARs, became interested (possible SHTF), and some probably thought the AWB meant you could'nt buy one at all, they are learning you can, and are getting in on the fun,or for SHTF..... just a thought
Link Posted: 4/3/2006 5:48:35 PM EDT
this summer, base RRA's were 700 shipped on the EE from everyone , now they are 2-300$ more and only legal transfers has that price. I'd love to know why......
Link Posted: 4/3/2006 5:51:35 PM EDT
People are getting spoiled and forgetting history. Black rifles are a bargain. The selection is greater than it ever was. The market is practically flooded with inexpensive choices for rifles. The costs have not gone up significantly over the past 12 years relative to the costs of other toys.
Link Posted: 4/3/2006 5:52:56 PM EDT

Originally Posted By pun:
If you buy at cost just for yourself the feds probably feel they are being cheated considering what they get on the excise tax.



Excise tax is paid by the manufacturers. It is not paid by the dealers or retail customers (at least not directly). So an 01 FFL is not cheating anybody by buying guns at cost.
Link Posted: 4/3/2006 5:53:01 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/3/2006 6:05:42 PM EDT by pun]
Damn the voting is 50/50 ..does that mean factory rifles out pace builds?what do you folks think.because my original question would not be difinitive so thats the way I took because to say yes or no could still mean yes they are overpriced but bought a factory rifle and no there not I bought a factory rifle.I guess I would have to be on the yes factory rifles out pace builds.Ill add a poll.Original poll went 49%to 49%..satisfied my 100 percentile of opinions..new poll question..if you voted go back again then post your opinion here on..thanks
Link Posted: 4/3/2006 7:06:36 PM EDT
I think that builds are more common here on boards like this, but how many average AR shooters are out there that know they can build them? Whenever I run into guys at the range with ARs, most of them just bought them, few know about buying a stripped lower and building it up.
Link Posted: 4/3/2006 7:49:43 PM EDT
I think AR's like Bushmaster and RRA should be no more than $800 bucks.

Just remember the catalog prices are ALWAYS higher than their retailers
Link Posted: 4/3/2006 7:54:52 PM EDT
On the high-end 'stock' rifle market - yes... With Bushmaster, ArmaLite & Colt you have extreme 'Harley syndrome' - you're paying for the name alone...

Mid-grade makers? No....

Ultra-high-end, custom (i.e. white oak) No - that's a specialty market, if you want a damn laser-accurate AR, you gotta pay SOMEONE to make it for you, as they don't come that good from the factory....
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