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Posted: 3/31/2006 7:58:48 AM EDT
I have a bushy M4 that I have never had problems with. A few K rounds with no problems. I was shooting yesterday and had a stuck case. The extractor ripped off a piece of the rim, but didnt pull the empty case out. It this just a freak thing, or should I upgrade my extractor. Ammo was Q3131A.
Link Posted: 3/31/2006 8:05:28 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/31/2006 8:06:24 AM EDT by M4A1OwnsYou]

Originally Posted By Kimber_45:
I have a bushy M4 that I have never had problems with. A few K rounds with no problems. I was shooting yesterday and had a stuck case. The extractor ripped off a piece of the rim, but didnt pull the empty case out. It this just a freak thing, or should I upgrade my extractor. Ammo was Q3131A.



Sounds like an ammo problem to me, but I'm a n00b. The casing should not be that weak.

Make sure you check that the piece of the rim didn't end up inside your gas key
Link Posted: 3/31/2006 8:07:50 AM EDT
If the extractor ripped a piece off the rim, then it is already getting a good grip. Upgrading the extractor would probably not have changed the outcome in this case.

Was the gun pretty warm when this happened and did the case come out easily when you removed it manually? If the case came out OK, then I would just guess you got a hotter-than-normal load and it was the ammo.
Link Posted: 3/31/2006 8:10:20 AM EDT
Yea, gun was smoking hot. I didnt have a cleaning rod to knock it out, so like a redneck, I knocked it out with a CB antenna.
Link Posted: 3/31/2006 8:24:09 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Kimber_45:
Yea, gun was smoking hot. I didnt have a cleaning rod to knock it out, so like a redneck, I knocked it out with a CB antenna.



Link Posted: 3/31/2006 8:38:54 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Kimber_45:
What upgrades to improve AR reliability?



i have found these step very useful in making the AR more reliable:

go to home depot, buy some off the shelf work gloves, put gloves on, pick up AR, chuck AR in nearest garbage bin, go to local gun store and pick yourself up a Romanian made AK and call it an AR.
Link Posted: 3/31/2006 8:39:36 AM EDT

Originally Posted By EricCartmanR1:

Originally Posted By Kimber_45:
What upgrades to improve AR reliability?



i have found these step very useful in making the AR more reliable:

go to home depot, buy some off the shelf work gloves, put gloves on, pick up AR, chuck AR in nearest garbage bin, go to local gun store and pick yourself up a Romanian made AK and call it an AR.



Go back to ak47.net.
Link Posted: 3/31/2006 8:55:56 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/31/2006 8:59:06 AM EDT by jwise]

Originally Posted By Kimber_45:
I have a bushy M4 that I have never had problems with. A few K rounds with no problems. I was shooting yesterday and had a stuck case. The extractor ripped off a piece of the rim, but didnt pull the empty case out. It this just a freak thing, or should I upgrade my extractor. Ammo was Q3131A.



In this particular example, I would have to say the rifle did just fine. The extractor grabbed on like it was supposed to, it was the brass that failed.

BTW- Last time out shooting, my AK got a case stuck in the chamber, and a friend ripped the case head right off! Without a broken shell extractor with me, that ended the day for the AK, and left us with two ARs and handguns.

There are other ways to enhance the reliability of the AR platform. One is to use Magpul enhanced anti-tilt followers in all your magazines. Second, you could look into an enhanced bolt by LMT ($150) or a Leitner-Wise "ACB" Advanced Combat Bolt ($140). The other options are only available when you buy the rifle, or at least replace major parts. M4 feed ramps in the upper receiver/barrel extension is seen by many to be an advantage. Chrome-lining in the bore/chamber is also regarded highly around here (and by me.)

Most discount chrome plated carriers and titanium firing pins as gimmicky, offering the user no reliability advantage, but possibly easier maintenance.

The most bang for your buck is going to be the Magpul followers, at least in your most used mags (range mags.)

BTW- I find that when I get a firearm "smok'n hot", and then leave a round sitting in that hot chamber, there is a high probability of it getting stuck after firing. That's ESCPECIALLY true for Wolf ammo, but it applies across the board.

ETA- Oh, and you could always run a heavier bolt carrier (M16 carrier or one of the other "high mass" carriers.)
Link Posted: 3/31/2006 8:57:30 AM EDT

Originally Posted By EricCartmanR1:

Originally Posted By Kimber_45:
What upgrades to improve AR reliability?



i have found these step very useful in making the AR more reliable:

go to home depot, buy some off the shelf work gloves, put gloves on, pick up AR, chuck AR in nearest garbage bin, go to local gun store and pick yourself up a Romanian made AK and call it an AR.



You need gloves to chuck a AR into the trashcan? Pansy
Link Posted: 3/31/2006 9:00:24 AM EDT

Originally Posted By EricCartmanR1:

Originally Posted By Kimber_45:
What upgrades to improve AR reliability?



i have found these step very useful in making the AR more reliable:

go to home depot, buy some off the shelf work gloves, put gloves on, pick up AR, chuck AR in nearest garbage bin, go to local gun store and pick yourself up a Romanian made AK and call it an AR.



Romanian? HA!
Link Posted: 3/31/2006 9:04:32 AM EDT

Originally Posted By jwise:

Originally Posted By EricCartmanR1:

Originally Posted By Kimber_45:
What upgrades to improve AR reliability?



i have found these step very useful in making the AR more reliable:

go to home depot, buy some off the shelf work gloves, put gloves on, pick up AR, chuck AR in nearest garbage bin, go to local gun store and pick yourself up a Romanian made AK and call it an AR.



Romanian? HA!



+1
Link Posted: 3/31/2006 9:07:34 AM EDT
I would have to agree with Bartholomew, if it ripped off a piece of the rim, then it sounds like the extractor is doing a great job.

Was the missing section of rim about the same size or larger then the width of the extractor? If so then the extractor is definitely doing it's job.

What kind of ammo? Brass case? Steel case? Lacquered case?

How many rounds did you shoot after the problem? Any more issues with follow up rounds?

Make sure you visually inspect the chamber for fouling.

One last piece of advice: Dump the CB and get a cell phone. Ha Ha.
Link Posted: 3/31/2006 9:08:40 AM EDT
Wolff extra power extractor spring is a real good idea ESPECIALLY in a carbine. Doesn't sound like that was your problem though. Make sure you clean your chamber well but that's more of a maintenance issue. Ditto on the Magpul followers.
Link Posted: 3/31/2006 9:12:10 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Kimber_45:
Yea, gun was smoking hot. I didnt have a cleaning rod to knock it out, so like a redneck, I knocked it out with a CB antenna.



Hey! Whatever works, Jethro!
Link Posted: 3/31/2006 9:18:34 AM EDT
An H buffer might help.
Link Posted: 3/31/2006 9:22:14 AM EDT

Originally Posted By jwise:

Originally Posted By Kimber_45:
I have a bushy M4 that I have never had problems with. A few K rounds with no problems. I was shooting yesterday and had a stuck case. The extractor ripped off a piece of the rim, but didnt pull the empty case out. It this just a freak thing, or should I upgrade my extractor. Ammo was Q3131A.



In this particular example, I would have to say the rifle did just fine. The extractor grabbed on like it was supposed to, it was the brass that failed.

BTW- Last time out shooting, my AK got a case stuck in the chamber, and a friend ripped the case head right off! Without a broken shell extractor with me, that ended the day for the AK, and left us with two ARs and handguns.

There are other ways to enhance the reliability of the AR platform. One is to use Magpul enhanced anti-tilt followers in all your magazines. Second, you could look into an enhanced bolt by LMT ($150) or a Leitner-Wise "ACB" Advanced Combat Bolt ($140). The other options are only available when you buy the rifle, or at least replace major parts. M4 feed ramps in the upper receiver/barrel extension is seen by many to be an advantage. Chrome-lining in the bore/chamber is also regarded highly around here (and by me.)

Most discount chrome plated carriers and titanium firing pins as gimmicky, offering the user no reliability advantage, but possibly easier maintenance.

The most bang for your buck is going to be the Magpul followers, at least in your most used mags (range mags.)

BTW- I find that when I get a firearm "smok'n hot", and then leave a round sitting in that hot chamber, there is a high probability of it getting stuck after firing. That's ESCPECIALLY true for Wolf ammo, but it applies across the board.

ETA- Oh, and you could always run a heavier bolt carrier (M16 carrier or one of the other "high mass" carriers.)



I've heard a lot of negative things about the LMT enhanced bolt. Apparently, it is only good for certain types of ammo...
Link Posted: 3/31/2006 9:26:09 AM EDT
If the extractor took a chunk off the rim and you had to knock the case out of the chamber with something it sounds like your case stuck in the chamber and there's no problem with the extractor.

I'd look for a dirty or rough chamber. First step would be to examine it under a good light. Then clean it using a chamber brush and good bore solvent. Then dry it out with a swab. Examine it again. If you can see any scores or ridges have the chamber polished.

HTH
Link Posted: 3/31/2006 9:59:41 AM EDT

Originally Posted By jwise:
Romanian? HA! hr


laugh all you want hough, and it will shoot and shoot and shoot. The sights on it suck though but at least it does not jam.

My A2/A3 M-16's I had while in the Army were fairly reliable too but that's only because we cleaned them so dam much. I remember one incident though when we went to the range while in the field for a week and half (I did not clean my weapon during this period) and boy that M-16 did not want to shoot. If we would had a surprise weapons inspection our a$$es would have been reamed .
Link Posted: 3/31/2006 10:24:12 AM EDT
The .mil overcleans its weapons. The important thing is to set the gun up right and keep it wet.

The .mil has cleaned a lot of weapons to the point where they are inoperable.

I think this problem might be helped by using a heavier buffer to allow chamber pressure to drop more, making for easier extraction.
Link Posted: 3/31/2006 10:36:45 AM EDT

Originally Posted By EricCartmanR1:

Originally Posted By jwise:
Romanian? HA!



laugh all you want

In all serious though, I can go days without cleaning my inexpensive Romanian AK [ and it will shoot and shoot and shoot. The sights on it suck though but at least it does not jam.

My A2/A3 M-16's I had while in the Army were fairly reliable too but that's only because we cleaned them so dam much. I remember one incident though when we went to the range while in the field for a week and half (I did not clean my weapon during this period) and boy that M-16 did not want to shoot. If we would had a surprise weapons inspection our a$$es would have been reamed .



See my post above, regarding my AK jamming due to the SAME problem exhibited here. AKs jam, too. There are so many more AR shooters, you hear about ARs jamming much more.

Mine was a Bulgarian AK, btw. Much higher quality than the Romanian junk getting put together.
Link Posted: 3/31/2006 10:38:59 AM EDT
give it a good cleaning mainly the chamber and go at it again.
Link Posted: 3/31/2006 11:14:53 AM EDT

Originally Posted By EricCartmanR1:

Originally Posted By Kimber_45:
What upgrades to improve AR reliability?



i have found these step very useful in making the AR more reliable:

go to home depot, buy some off the shelf work gloves, put gloves on, pick up AR, chuck AR in nearest garbage bin, go to local gun store and pick yourself up a Romanian made AK and call it an AR.



The gloves might come in handy to make that AKs trigger slap tolerable!
Link Posted: 3/31/2006 11:46:47 AM EDT

Originally Posted By EricCartmanR1:
In all serious though, I can go days without cleaning my inexpensive Romanian AK [ and it will shoot and shoot and shoot.


Most of us have doen the same with our ARs. That is not a big deal.



The sights on it suck though but at least it does not jam.

Well the sights and ergonomics on my ARs are fantastic and my rifle doesn't 'jam' either.

So get rid of that door stop and buy yourself a good AR.
Link Posted: 3/31/2006 11:50:18 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/31/2006 11:50:44 AM EDT by EricCartmanR1]

Originally Posted By Forest:

So get rid of that door stop and buy yourself a good AR.



I am ahead of the game... I just bought a Bushmaster M4 with Eotech, surefire rails, lights, and ARMS rear site. Will post pics soon.
Link Posted: 3/31/2006 12:07:22 PM EDT
Thats simple:

(1.) Otis cleaning kit
(2.) CLP - plenty of it. Lube it till you think it's too much, then lube it again. Do not listen to Internet morons about "Over Lubrication".
(3.) H or H2 buffer
(4.) Wolf HD extractor spring
(5.) CRANE extractor o-ring - I get mine from Adco
(6.) USGI or HK mags
(7.) Factory ammo
Link Posted: 3/31/2006 12:11:49 PM EDT

Originally Posted By EricCartmanR1:

Originally Posted By Kimber_45:
What upgrades to improve AR reliability?



i have found these step very useful in making the AR more reliable:

go to home depot, buy some off the shelf work gloves, put gloves on, pick up AR, chuck AR in nearest garbage bin, go to local gun store and pick yourself up a Romanian made AK and call it an AR.



Eric, I have a Romanian SAR 2 at an AK Hospital as we speak for repairs. While not jamming it is splitting cases and breaking riviets. No dout the AK is praboly the most reliable rifle on the planet. But even an AK can choke up. I had an Bulgarian 74 that had to go visit the Docotor 3 times to finally resolve the jamming issues it had. It's running fine now but shit can happen , I guess you can say. I have great respect for both series. They both are very good. I have personally carried the M16A1 and the M16A2 while serveing in the Army. I really love the A1.... I guess for the weight and simplisity of the rear site. Cheers WarDawg
Link Posted: 3/31/2006 12:14:52 PM EDT
If you consider a new "enhanced" bolt with different style extractor go with the Leitner Wise ACB. You can buy them on the EE on this site or check out the LW Industry forum on this site for information for purchase. They are much more robust than standard or the LMT enhanced bolt for that matter. They include a limited lifetime warranty and are a great company to work with.

Link Posted: 3/31/2006 12:19:14 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Va_Dinger:
Thats simple:

(4.) Wolf HD extractor spring
(5.) CRANE extractor o-ring - I get mine from Adco



I've been thinking about those, but wondering if they were necessary or even counter-productive. (I haven't had any problems with any of my AR's, so I suppose I should stop trying to fix things that aren't broken.)
Link Posted: 3/31/2006 12:19:59 PM EDT

Originally Posted By roadrash:

Originally Posted By EricCartmanR1:

Originally Posted By Kimber_45:
What upgrades to improve AR reliability?



i have found these step very useful in making the AR more reliable:

go to home depot, buy some off the shelf work gloves, put gloves on, pick up AR, chuck AR in nearest garbage bin, go to local gun store and pick yourself up a Romanian made AK and call it an AR.



The gloves might come in handy to make that AKs trigger slap tolerable!



+1
Link Posted: 3/31/2006 12:22:06 PM EDT
Your gun is obviously junk......send it to me for $1.

Link Posted: 3/31/2006 12:23:31 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Rodent:

Originally Posted By Va_Dinger:
Thats simple:

(4.) Wolf HD extractor spring
(5.) CRANE extractor o-ring - I get mine from Adco



I've been thinking about those, but wondering if they were necessary or even counter-productive. (I haven't had any problems with any of my AR's, so I suppose I should stop trying to fix things that aren't broken.)



Neither of these are going to be counter-productive. How could they be? Both will do nothing but increase your AR's reliability of the long haul.
Link Posted: 3/31/2006 12:27:32 PM EDT
Clean it
Dont buy shitty mags
Dont buy shitty ammo
Dont buy a shitty gun


Your gun will function great if you do these things
Link Posted: 3/31/2006 12:46:57 PM EDT
Do you clean the chamber after every shooting session??

My bets are it's a dirty or rough chamber as someone has already posted.
Link Posted: 3/31/2006 12:49:25 PM EDT

Originally Posted By EricCartmanR1:

Originally Posted By jwise:
Romanian? HA!



laugh all you want

In all serious though, I can go days without cleaning my inexpensive Romanian AK [ and it will shoot and shoot and shoot. The sights on it suck though but at least it does not jam.





Considering that I haven't cleaned my Bushmaster in MONTHS (and a couple thousand rounds of Wolf), your statement somehow fails to impress me.

Seriously, ARs are more reliable than most people give them credit for. And yes, the Army does overclean their weapons. If you had AKs in the Army you would have cleaned them just as much.
Link Posted: 3/31/2006 1:25:51 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Va_Dinger:
(4.) Wolf HD extractor spring
(5.) CRANE extractor o-ring - I get mine from Adco
Neither of these are going to be counter-productive. How could they be?



I was thinking counter-productive like the "Accu-wedge" turned out to be, for example. You know, doesn't really do any good and occassionally comes loose and gets caught in something.
Link Posted: 3/31/2006 1:28:14 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Kimber_45:
I have a bushy M4 that I have never had problems with. A few K rounds with no problems. I was shooting yesterday and had a stuck case. The extractor ripped off a piece of the rim, but didnt pull the empty case out. It this just a freak thing, or should I upgrade my extractor. Ammo was Q3131A.




sell it and buy an RRA or DPMS?????????????????
Link Posted: 3/31/2006 1:32:17 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Rodent:

Originally Posted By Va_Dinger:
(4.) Wolf HD extractor spring
(5.) CRANE extractor o-ring - I get mine from Adco
Neither of these are going to be counter-productive. How could they be?



I was thinking counter-productive like the "Accu-wedge" turned out to be, for example. You know, doesn't really do any good and occassionally comes loose and gets caught in something.



These are not like the Accu-edge.

Yes, the crane o-ring or a defender would have to be inspected every time you clean your weapon but that’s not really a problem. Neither would usually need replacing till after 5-10 thousand rounds. They also actually improve the reliability of your weapon. The accu-wedge just makes some guys feel better, but does nothing.
Link Posted: 3/31/2006 3:00:13 PM EDT
you can actually improve reliability with it?
Link Posted: 3/31/2006 3:43:38 PM EDT
Link Posted: 3/31/2006 3:45:00 PM EDT
Link Posted: 3/31/2006 3:52:10 PM EDT
Over luberication is an issue here in the desert. No real need to soak the bolt with lube it is only required on the bearing surfaces and not a whole lot at that.
Link Posted: 3/31/2006 3:57:31 PM EDT

Originally Posted By STLRN:
Over luberication is an issue here in the desert. No real need to soak the bolt with lube it is only required on the bearing surfaces and not a whole lot at that.



I lube the gas holes in the side of the carrier. How would that work Over There?
Link Posted: 3/31/2006 3:58:05 PM EDT

Originally Posted By EricCartmanR1:

Originally Posted By jwise:
Romanian? HA!



laugh all you want

In all serious though, I can go days without cleaning my inexpensive Romanian AK [ and it will shoot and shoot and shoot. The sights on it suck though but at least it does not jam.

My A2/A3 M-16's I had while in the Army were fairly reliable too but that's only because we cleaned them so dam much. I remember one incident though when we went to the range while in the field for a week and half (I did not clean my weapon during this period) and boy that M-16 did not want to shoot. If we would had a surprise weapons inspection our a$$es would have been reamed .



Where did you get an M16A3 at in the army? I know they exist but I have never seen one, I am just curious. Plus I have several AR's and have had several AK's and I would have to say that my AR's are just as reliable and more accurate than any AK I have ever had. Not saying I hate AK's, I actually like them alot, I just prefer the AR's.
Link Posted: 3/31/2006 4:05:14 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:

Originally Posted By STLRN:
Over luberication is an issue here in the desert. No real need to soak the bolt with lube it is only required on the bearing surfaces and not a whole lot at that.



I lube the gas holes in the side of the carrier. How would that work Over There?



Yah, all I do is the cam pin ( and cam hole in the bolt carrier), gas rings, lugs, bearing surfaces on the bolt and carrier and put a little dab of TWB25 in the gas key and haven't had a problem. Most I have shot here is one UBL (12 mags) in our bi-weekly "reset training." Without a stoppage so far. All I do is dust the weapon off daily other after reset training and than it gets a cleaning and lubing that will last it till next reset. We do fire 2 test rounds prior to leaving the FOB, so prior to reset probable 30-40 rounds of ammo during the 2 weeks without a real cleaning just a reomoving of dust. A thin coat of TW is all that is needed.
Link Posted: 3/31/2006 4:39:21 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Kimber_45:
Yea, gun was smoking hot. I didnt have a cleaning rod to knock it out, so like a redneck, I knocked it out with a CB antenna.



Been there, done that.

If there is one part in an AR that takes a lot of punishment its the extractor. Using a #60 O ring around the extractor spring will enhance the reliability of it but keeping a spare on hand is a smart idea.

I broke one a couple of weeks ago and didn't have a spare with me.....never again. Buying a few of them and putting one with each rifle and one in a cleaning kit.
Link Posted: 3/31/2006 4:45:37 PM EDT
Link Posted: 3/31/2006 4:46:22 PM EDT
as far as reliability, i have mcpherson gas rings. i think thats what they were called. i got into the ar by my friend in the corps. he taught me everything i know about guns. he said when he was there they just dumped the rifles into a barrel or kerosene, or just hose it down with carb spray. and just two drops of clp on the gas rings via the carrier holes. and no more. he said anymore the rifle would have problems firing. but then again he was telling me how to keep an automatic reliable in the desert*. i also got kns reciever pins, as prescribed by my friend. he said they'll save my lower recievers pin holes, and further improves reliability. and i also have an egress bolt kit w/ defender d-ring. and i think thats it. i can't remember what else.

please dont take my words seriously i dont know if this is right, its just what i was taught by my friend. which is why i'm on here now trying to learn more because he got deployed again. =/

*he was in gulf war, in somalia, bosnia and some other stuff.
Link Posted: 3/31/2006 4:53:36 PM EDT
Link Posted: 3/31/2006 4:59:14 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 1911ar-15:

hat
Seriously, ARs are more reliable than most people give them credit for. And yes, the Army does overclean their weapons. If you had AKs in the Army you would have cleaned them just as much.



well that's good to know, cause I just picked up a Bushmaster! h.gif
Link Posted: 3/31/2006 5:04:51 PM EDT

Originally Posted By DM1975:
Where did you get an M16A3 at in the army? I know they exist but I have never seen one, I am just curious. Plus I have several AR's and have had several AK's and I would have to say that my AR's are just as reliable and more accurate than any AK I have ever had. Not saying I hate AK's, I actually like them alot, I just prefer the AR's.



I was in the service in the early 90's. Serverd in Germany but deployed to the gulf during Desert Shield, Desert Storm, and Provide Hope. We had A3's. Most of the grunts in Germany had A3's. I was not a grunt, but a proud 12B, more grunt than a grunt!

As for accuracy... the AK does suck but I am going to try a scope to see if that improves things. Can't wait to shoot my new Bushmaster.
Link Posted: 3/31/2006 5:06:22 PM EDT

Originally Posted By EricCartmanR1:

Originally Posted By DM1975:
Where did you get an M16A3 at in the army? I know they exist but I have never seen one, I am just curious. Plus I have several AR's and have had several AK's and I would have to say that my AR's are just as reliable and more accurate than any AK I have ever had. Not saying I hate AK's, I actually like them alot, I just prefer the AR's.



I was in the service in the early 90's. Serverd in Germany but deployed to the gulf during Desert Shield, Desert Storm, and Provide Hope. We had A3's. Most of the grunts in Germany had A3's. I was not a grunt, but a proud 12B, more grunt than a grunt!

As for accuracy... the AK does suck but I am going to try a scope to see if that improves things. Can't wait to shoot my new Bushmaster.



I have alot of respect for 12B's (now 21B's) That is a cool fact on the A3, I will have to remember that. Thanks for the info.
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