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Posted: 3/29/2006 12:21:18 PM EDT
Specifically, if you buy a Bushmaster AR15 pistol, can you put a stock or buttpad or anything on the end of the tube. If not, what regulation says so.

Thanks
Link Posted: 3/29/2006 12:22:22 PM EDT
No can do, unless you have a permit for a short barrel rifle.
Link Posted: 3/29/2006 12:24:13 PM EDT
Link Posted: 3/29/2006 12:25:57 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/29/2006 12:26:30 PM EDT by Stickman]
Link Posted: 3/29/2006 12:46:02 PM EDT

Originally Posted By MST2:
If not, what regulation says so.



How about the Federal Firearms Act of 1934 for starters.
Link Posted: 3/29/2006 12:49:34 PM EDT
Link Posted: 3/29/2006 1:06:47 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Stickman:
Current federal law, and state laws all say its a no go. You can take your pic of which one covers it, but there are certainly more than one which do.

There are legal ways to achieve your goal.

Legal, expensive ways haha
Link Posted: 3/29/2006 1:07:00 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/29/2006 1:08:27 PM EDT by JoshNC]

Originally Posted By bullitt5172:
No can do, unless you have a permit for a short barrel rifle.



Just to clarify, there is no such thing as a permit for an SBR, unless there's a state I'm not familiar with that requires one.

What you do need is a BATF approved form 1 (if you're an individual who makes an SBR), form 2 (if you're an 07/02 FFL/SOT who makes/manufactures an SBR), form 3 (if you're an FFL/SOT who has transferred the SBR from the manufacturer or another dealer to yourself), or form 4 (if you're an individual who has transferred the SBR from a dealer or other individual to yourself).
Link Posted: 3/29/2006 1:28:23 PM EDT
It is my understanding that if you put a 16" barrel on it then you can put a stock on it. You can then take the stock off and put on the shorter barrel back on. You can go back and forth as much as you want. Just never have the stock on when the shorter barrel is on. This sort of thing is evidently done all the time with Thompson Center firearms. At least they are the people that had the pull to get it into law.
Link Posted: 3/29/2006 1:34:32 PM EDT
Do you have to have a form 1 for EVERY SINGLE SBR you create?
Link Posted: 3/29/2006 1:38:15 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Hostile1:
Do you have to have a form 1 for EVERY SINGLE SBR you create?



Yup (unless you're an SOT 2 ?) . It's an application to make and register a firearm. www.atf.gov/forms/pdfs/f53201.pdf
Link Posted: 3/29/2006 1:40:00 PM EDT
Any idea how long this process takes? I'm interested in making an SBR, but do they have the same stupid rules as other NFA items such as having to notify if you take it 60 miles or more away from you home etc???
Link Posted: 3/29/2006 1:40:46 PM EDT

Originally Posted By ChuckD:
It is my understanding that if you put a 16" barrel on it then you can put a stock on it. You can then take the stock off and put on the shorter barrel back on. You can go back and forth as much as you want. Just never have the stock on when the shorter barrel is on. This sort of thing is evidently done all the time with Thompson Center firearms. At least they are the people that had the pull to get it into law.



that is IF you start with a pistol.
if you start with a rifle you break the law.
(all TC arms are sold as pistols)
Link Posted: 3/29/2006 1:40:52 PM EDT
THIS AR-15 PISTOL IS SOLD AS A PISTOL NOT AN AR-15 SO WHY IS IT ILLEGAL TO PUT A BUTT STOCK ON A PISTOL? I JUST GOT OFF THE PHONE WITH ATF AND THEY COULD NOT GIVE ME A YES OR NO IF THAT WOULD BE ILLEGAL. YES THE BARREL IS LESS THAN 16 IN. AND OVERALL LESS THAN 32, BUT THESE ARE SOLD AS A PISTOL. DON'T THEY MAKE STOCKS FOR HANDGUNS SUCH AS GLOCKS. SOMEONE GIVE ME A GOOD ANSWER AS TO WHY PUTTING A STOCK ON A ROCK RIVER ARMS/BUSHMASTER AR-15 PISTOL WOULD BE ILLEGAL.
Link Posted: 3/29/2006 1:41:14 PM EDT
You must have a form 1 (or form 4, etc.) for every SBR weapon (i.e. lower, in the case of AR's). You can have 1 SBR lower and multiple short uppers to swap back and forth on it.

Some will argue that if you have one SBR lower, multiple sub-16" uppers, and other complete ARs laying around, you are in violation of the "constructive intent" laws. I'm not going to get into that argument.
Link Posted: 3/29/2006 1:41:56 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/29/2006 1:42:12 PM EDT by eklikwhoa]
check out the m16 forum or classII forum for more info on it.


usually anywhere from one month to nine as long as your state allows it.
Link Posted: 3/29/2006 1:44:12 PM EDT

Originally Posted By juicybooty:
THIS AR-15 PISTOL IS SOLD AS A PISTOL NOT AN AR-15 SO WHY IS IT ILLEGAL TO PUT A BUTT STOCK ON A PISTOL? I JUST GOT OFF THE PHONE WITH ATF AND THEY COULD NOT GIVE ME A YES OR NO IF THAT WOULD BE ILLEGAL. YES THE BARREL IS LESS THAN 16 IN. AND OVERALL LESS THAN 32, BUT THESE ARE SOLD AS A PISTOL. DON'T THEY MAKE STOCKS FOR HANDGUNS SUCH AS GLOCKS. SOMEONE GIVE ME A GOOD ANSWER AS TO WHY PUTTING A STOCK ON A ROCK RIVER ARMS/BUSHMASTER AR-15 PISTOL WOULD BE ILLEGAL.




cause the oal length of the bbl needs to be 16"
the stocks for pistols are usually kits which included the longer bbl. and if not they are for classIII
a pistol is a pistol and not a rifle


but dont take my word for it and do as you please.
Link Posted: 3/29/2006 1:45:09 PM EDT

Originally Posted By juicybooty:
THIS AR-15 PISTOL IS SOLD AS A PISTOL NOT AN AR-15 SO WHY IS IT ILLEGAL TO PUT A BUTT STOCK ON A PISTOL? I JUST GOT OFF THE PHONE WITH ATF AND THEY COULD NOT GIVE ME A YES OR NO IF THAT WOULD BE ILLEGAL. YES THE BARREL IS LESS THAN 16 IN. AND OVERALL LESS THAN 32, BUT THESE ARE SOLD AS A PISTOL. DON'T THEY MAKE STOCKS FOR HANDGUNS SUCH AS GLOCKS. SOMEONE GIVE ME A GOOD ANSWER AS TO WHY PUTTING A STOCK ON A ROCK RIVER ARMS/BUSHMASTER AR-15 PISTOL WOULD BE ILLEGAL.



Yes, they make stocks for Glocks. Putting them on a Glock is illegal unless it is registered as an SBR.

Pistols are not designed to be fired from the shoulder. Rifles are. When you put a buttstock on a pistol, it becomes a short-barelled rifle.

Read up here for info on AR pistols, and here for tons of good info on SBRs.
Link Posted: 3/29/2006 1:47:01 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Hostile1:
Any idea how long this process takes? I'm interested in making an SBR, but do they have the same stupid rules as other NFA items such as having to notify if you take it 60 miles or more away from you home etc???


There are timelines in the NFA/M16 section here.
The SBR FAQ ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=14&t=178305

And yes, interstate transportation etc applies to all NFA firearms to my knowledge. Local laws probably also apply.
Link Posted: 3/29/2006 1:47:28 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Hostile1:
Any idea how long this process takes? I'm interested in making an SBR, but do they have the same stupid rules as other NFA items such as having to notify if you take it 60 miles or more away from you home etc???



SBRs are treated the same as any other NFA item. You have to notify ATF if you take it out of state. It is $200 for the tax to make/register it. Read the link in my previous post for the SBR FAQ in the CIII forum.
Link Posted: 3/29/2006 1:48:39 PM EDT
WELL THE BARREL ON THESE AR-15 PISTOLS ARE EITHER 7 OR 10.5 FROM ROCK RIVER ARMS, SOLD AS A PISTOL. YOU DON'T NEED TO APPLY TO ATF TO GET ON OF THESE. ANYONE CAN GET ONE. SO AGAIN, WHAT SAYS WE CAN'T PUT A STOCK ON IT.
Link Posted: 3/29/2006 1:50:05 PM EDT

Originally Posted By juicybooty:
..I JUST GOT OFF THE PHONE WITH ATF AND THEY COULD NOT GIVE ME A YES OR NO IF THAT WOULD BE ILLEGAL.


Because there are variables that depend on the situation.


DON'T THEY MAKE STOCKS FOR HANDGUNS SUCH AS GLOCKS.

Yes but you'll note they are sold for LEO use only. If YOU want to use one you'll have to register your Glock as a SBR.



SOMEONE GIVE ME A GOOD ANSWER AS TO WHY PUTTING A STOCK ON A ROCK RIVER ARMS/BUSHMASTER AR-15 PISTOL WOULD BE ILLEGAL.



Like I said try the National Firearms Act of 1934
Link Posted: 3/29/2006 1:50:15 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/29/2006 1:54:27 PM EDT by DK-Prof]

Originally Posted By juicybooty:
WELL THE BARREL ON THESE AR-15 PISTOLS ARE EITHER 7 OR 10.5 FROM ROCK RIVER ARMS, SOLD AS A PISTOL. YOU DON'T NEED TO APPLY TO ATF TO GET ON OF THESE. ANYONE CAN GET ONE. SO AGAIN, WHAT SAYS WE CAN'T PUT A STOCK ON IT.



Are you deaf?

THE LAW says that you cannot put a stock on it, when the barrel length is less than 16"



It is perfectly legal to own as a pistol with a short barrel. When you put a stock on it, it instantly becomes classsified as a rifle - and as a rifle MUST have a barrel length of 16" or greater (unless you have a Form 1 and a $200 tax stamp for a Short-barelled rifle).
Link Posted: 3/29/2006 1:56:02 PM EDT
DO YOU HAVE THE REFERENCE FOR THAT? I CAN NOT FIND THE LAW THAT SAYS WHEN YOU PUT A STOCK ON A PISTOL THAT IS BECOMES A RIFLE.
Link Posted: 3/29/2006 1:59:09 PM EDT

Originally Posted By juicybooty:
DO YOU HAVE THE REFERENCE FOR THAT? I CAN NOT FIND THE LAW THAT SAYS WHEN YOU PUT A STOCK ON A PISTOL THAT IS BECOMES A RIFLE.



Did you read the link I posted? It's a clear in there.
Link Posted: 3/29/2006 2:02:58 PM EDT
And dude LOSE THE CAPS!!! It's rude and considered yelling. Not to mention hard to read.



Link Posted: 3/29/2006 2:05:20 PM EDT
I think you're going to have to draw him pictures Forest. He doesn't seem too inclined to read, anything.
Link Posted: 3/29/2006 2:05:56 PM EDT
i'm sorry
Link Posted: 3/29/2006 2:06:55 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/29/2006 2:08:33 PM EDT by DK-Prof]

Originally Posted By juicybooty:
DO YOU HAVE THE REFERENCE FOR THAT? I CAN NOT FIND THE LAW THAT SAYS WHEN YOU PUT A STOCK ON A PISTOL THAT IS BECOMES A RIFLE.




The FAQ on the ATF site is pretty clear about it: www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/faq2.htm#m25



(M25) If a person has a pistol and an attachable shoulder stock, does this constitute possession of an NFA firearm? [Back]

Yes, unless the barrel of the pistol is at least 16 inches in length (and the overall length of the firearm with stock attached is at least 26 inches). However, certain stocked handguns, such as original semiautomatic Mauser "Broomhandles" and Lugers, have been removed from the purview of the NFA as collectors' items. [27 CFR 179.11]




Here is more info on NFA firearms - from the same page:




(M15) What are the required transfer procedures for an individual who is not qualified as a manufacturer, importer, or dealer of NFA firearms? [Back]

ATF Form 4 (5320.4) must be completed, in duplicate. The transferor must first complete the face of the form. The transferee must complete the transferee's certification on the reverse of the form and have the "Law Enforcement Certification" completed by the chief law enforcement officer.

The transferee is to affix, on each copy of the form, a 2-inch by 2-inch photograph of the transferee taken within the past year (proofs, group photographs or photocopies are unacceptable). The transferee's address must be a street address, not a post office box. If there is no street address, specific directions to the residence must be included.

If state or local law requires a prior permit or license to purchase, possess, or receive NFA firearms, a copy of the transferee's permit or license must accompany the application. A check or money order for $200 ($ 5 for transfer of "any other weapon") shall be made payable to ATF by the transferor. All signatures on both copies must be in ink. Submit fingerprints on FBI Form FD-258, in duplicate. Fingerprints must be taken by a person qualified to do so, and must be clear and classifiable. If wear or damage to the fingertips do not allow clear prints, and if the prints are taken by a law enforcement official, a statement on his or her official letterhead giving the reason why good prints are unobtainable should accompany the fingerprints.

Forward completed information and appropriate tax payment to the Bureau of ATF, P. O. Box 73201, Chicago, IL 60673. Transfer of the NFA firearm may be made only upon approval of the ATF Form 4 by the NFA Branch. If the application is approved, the original of the form with the cancelled stamp affixed showing approval will be returned to the applicant. Otherwise, the tax will be refunded.

Upon approval of the ATF Form 4, the transferor should transfer the firearm as soon as possible, since the firearm is now registered to the transferee. [26 U. S. C. 5812, 27 CFR 179.83-179.86]


(M16) How does an individual obtain authorization to make an NFA firearm? [Back]

Prior to making the firearm, the individual must submit ATF Form 1, Application to Make and Register a Firearm, to the Bureau of ATF, NFA Branch, Washington, DC 20226, and receive approval. The applicant must follow the procedures described in Question M15 concerning completion of the form, including photographs, fingerprints and certifications. The applicant must forward the original and a duplicate of the form along with a check or money order for $200 made payable to the Bureau of ATF. If the application is approved, the original of the form with the cancelled stamp affixed showing approval will be returned to the applicant. Otherwise, the tax will be refunded. [26 U. S. C 5822, 27 CFR 179.62-179.65]






By the way - there is a forum specifically for AR pistols, and one for NFA firearms (Full Auto,short barreled rifles and silencers) - people in those forums can also provide more specific info.

We're not trying to jerk you around or trick you, we're just telling you what the law is.
Link Posted: 3/29/2006 2:07:02 PM EDT
So if you purchase a short barrel rifle, then you need to notify the ATF if you move out of state? Do you have to notify any local law enforcement too?

Lets say you register a SBR in Washington State, and then you move to Florida, what is the lawful process for notification?

Thanks.
Link Posted: 3/29/2006 2:07:23 PM EDT
i'm sorry
Link Posted: 3/29/2006 2:08:44 PM EDT

Originally Posted By MST2:
So if you purchase a short barrel rifle, then you need to notify the ATF if you move out of state?


Absulutely.


Do you have to notify any local law enforcement too?

Depends on the state's law. Some yes, some no. Just don't move to a state where SBRs are prohibited.
Link Posted: 3/29/2006 2:09:26 PM EDT
thank you for being nice to me. i'll switch over to ar15 pistol forum.

toodles everyone
Link Posted: 3/29/2006 2:09:56 PM EDT

Originally Posted By MST2:
So if you purchase a short barrel rifle, then you need to notify the ATF if you move out of state? Do you have to notify any local law enforcement too?

Lets say you register a SBR in Washington State, and then you move to Florida, what is the lawful process for notification?

Thanks.




Actually, you need to inform the ATF if you are just temporarily moving the SBR to another state - like for a shoot or something.

There are specific forms for this, I believe.

Link Posted: 3/29/2006 2:11:35 PM EDT

Originally Posted By juicybooty:
thank you for being nice to me. i'll switch over to ar15 pistol forum.

toodles everyone




I've asked my share of questions that were really obvious to everyone else.

Sorry if we jumped all over you. Some of these laws can seem pretty arcane and arbitrary.

Link Posted: 3/29/2006 2:20:12 PM EDT

Originally Posted By DK-Prof:

Originally Posted By juicybooty:
WELL THE BARREL ON THESE AR-15 PISTOLS ARE EITHER 7 OR 10.5 FROM ROCK RIVER ARMS, SOLD AS A PISTOL. YOU DON'T NEED TO APPLY TO ATF TO GET ON OF THESE. ANYONE CAN GET ONE. SO AGAIN, WHAT SAYS WE CAN'T PUT A STOCK ON IT.



Are you deaf?

THE LAW says that you cannot put a stock on it, when the barrel length is less than 16"



It is perfectly legal to own as a pistol with a short barrel. When you put a stock on it, it instantly becomes classsified as a rifle - and as a rifle MUST have a barrel length of 16" or greater (unless you have a Form 1 and a $200 tax stamp for a Short-barelled rifle).



Do you know what that law is, by any chance? I thought the most recent ATF "opinion" was that you don't make an AOW by putting a forward vertical grip on an AR because the AR pistol wasn't originally designed with a vertical forward grip. The same logic (yeah, I know, I know ) would imply that putting a buttstock on a pistol doesn't turn it into a rifle.
Link Posted: 3/29/2006 3:03:43 PM EDT

Originally Posted By bnorman:

Originally Posted By DK-Prof:

Originally Posted By juicybooty:
WELL THE BARREL ON THESE AR-15 PISTOLS ARE EITHER 7 OR 10.5 FROM ROCK RIVER ARMS, SOLD AS A PISTOL. YOU DON'T NEED TO APPLY TO ATF TO GET ON OF THESE. ANYONE CAN GET ONE. SO AGAIN, WHAT SAYS WE CAN'T PUT A STOCK ON IT.



Are you deaf?

THE LAW says that you cannot put a stock on it, when the barrel length is less than 16"



It is perfectly legal to own as a pistol with a short barrel. When you put a stock on it, it instantly becomes classsified as a rifle - and as a rifle MUST have a barrel length of 16" or greater (unless you have a Form 1 and a $200 tax stamp for a Short-barelled rifle).



Do you know what that law is, by any chance? I thought the most recent ATF "opinion" was that you don't make an AOW by putting a forward vertical grip on an AR because the AR pistol wasn't originally designed with a vertical forward grip. The same logic (yeah, I know, I know ) would imply that putting a buttstock on a pistol doesn't turn it into a rifle.



My understanding was that putting a forward vertical grip on any pistol, even an AR pistol (why it would be any different is beyond me), was creating an AOW. Most pistols aren't originally designed w/ VFG's, so your statement doesn't make any sense...and if anyone were to read the links posted, we could all stop asking which law(s) prohibit these acts.
Link Posted: 3/29/2006 4:31:28 PM EDT
Link Posted: 3/29/2006 6:55:06 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/30/2006 1:32:13 PM EDT by zak2427]

Originally Posted By juicybooty:
WELL THE BARREL ON THESE AR-15 PISTOLS ARE EITHER 7 OR 10.5 FROM ROCK RIVER ARMS, SOLD AS A PISTOL. YOU DON'T NEED TO APPLY TO ATF TO GET ON OF THESE. ANYONE CAN GET ONE. SO AGAIN, WHAT SAYS WE CAN'T PUT A STOCK ON IT.



Well good luck with that idea in federal court.
Link Posted: 3/30/2006 1:24:42 PM EDT
I don't think we're getting through to him.
Link Posted: 3/31/2006 7:43:41 AM EDT
Well good luck with making new friends. I was just asking a question and apparently this isn't the place to ask people. No friendlies here.
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