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Posted: 3/29/2006 9:05:02 AM EDT
I have two ar15's and I am in the process of planning my third build. However, upon researching the parts I want, I keep coming across all of this Gas Piston/ HK/ Sig 556/ FN SCAR type stuff that really has me wondering... Is this the next evolution in assault rifles? If so, what is to become of the AR? I am at the point where I may not build my next AR. Any thoughts? I am not looking to start a shitstorm, I just want some honest opinions.
Link Posted: 3/29/2006 9:07:45 AM EDT
There will be regular AR's and accessories for them for years to come.
Link Posted: 3/29/2006 9:12:01 AM EDT
None of those are even out for general consumption (minus two gas piston desings). They are also much more expensive. The AR will be around for a long time.
Link Posted: 3/29/2006 9:17:33 AM EDT
My point is that soon they will be available... and are they better? Do I need a POF upper to get me acclimated? Sould I build a sniper rifle while the industry catches up? I can wait a year or so for a better rifle.
Link Posted: 3/29/2006 9:25:17 AM EDT
Bro! Don't sweat it!

Do you know how many FADS I've seen come and go over the years here? The piston thing will have a nitch probably, but it's a solution to a problem that doesn't exsist.

Link Posted: 3/29/2006 9:47:33 AM EDT
But isn't it about time to improve this weapon, its 35 years old give or take. Are you sure it's a fad? I know the ar is not going to dissapear, but I after more accurate, more dependable, more utility.
Link Posted: 3/29/2006 9:51:29 AM EDT
More toys to play with. It encourages innovation, and its fun to play with, especially if it works. My time to play soldier is over, I'm too old. My daughter and sons however are the right age. My daughter is USAF and her alternate job is base security. So the civilian side drives improvements for the M16 rifle that will be in service for many years to come. That means spin offs get support and keep the good guys in the good toys at prices we can all afford. It also may help our guys win, and put terrorists in front of Allah for judgement.

So go build whatever you want, and enjoy it.
Link Posted: 3/29/2006 9:51:48 AM EDT
Seriously, what's to improve on? I don't have a lot of problems with mine; do you?
Link Posted: 3/29/2006 10:01:32 AM EDT
You could improve on virtually any design, but that would of course be at some expense to the original concept. Would, if improved, the Winchester Model 94 be that much better than it has been? Enough already, shoot till it falls apart and then figure out what could have been better.
Link Posted: 3/29/2006 10:09:27 AM EDT
There are way to many AR's out there for them to be at the end of an era.
Link Posted: 3/29/2006 10:33:00 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/29/2006 10:33:56 AM EDT by demigod]

Originally Posted By FITTER:
Seriously, what's to improve on? I don't have a lot of problems with mine; do you?



Exactly. The benefits that are being touted by the piston heads are that you keep heat and fouling out of the upper receiver/ bolt group. Heat and Fouling have never been a problem in any of my guns.

Link Posted: 3/29/2006 10:36:12 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/29/2006 10:39:29 AM EDT by BSheppard]

Originally Posted By demigod:
Bro! Don't sweat it!

Do you know how many FADS I've seen come and go over the years here? The piston thing will have a nitch probably, but it's a solution to a problem that doesn't exsist.




+1 I am holding on to my money until its been out for a while. More choices and others will test them all and let me know whitch is the best. Also when or if the piston thing catches on and there are big numbers sold we will see the true advantages/drawbacks. Until then its kinda hard for me to pay and be a guinea pig for something that might be better. Now it would be a different story if all my ARs had problems with the gas system but they don't.
Link Posted: 3/29/2006 10:45:45 AM EDT

Originally Posted By demigod:

Originally Posted By FITTER:
Seriously, what's to improve on? I don't have a lot of problems with mine; do you?



Exactly. The benefits that are being touted by the piston heads are that you keep heat and fouling out of the upper receiver/ bolt group. Heat and Fouling have never been a problem in any of my guns.


I haven't had a problem either, but that does not mean there isn't one. How many FTE's, bolts broken at the cam pin, and sheared lugs do we have to see before we figure this out? Look at the LW system, and the torture it has been put through. No DI gun will match that, period.
Link Posted: 3/29/2006 10:49:50 AM EDT
I agree with most of these replies. The AR-15 as we know and love it isn't going anywhere for a quite some time.

Did the 1911 disappear after the Beretta 92SBF became regular issue? I think not.

I also agree with those who recommend for you to have fun, and experiment.

I bought the POF Gas Trap upper. I bought is because I thought it was an interesting design and the engineering was sound. When I bought it I wouldn't have bet my life on it. Now that I have put over a thousand rounds of various ammo through it, I would bet my life on it, and I do. It is simple like the original Stoner design, only much, much cleaner.

I have a lot of buddies who carry Glocks and brag about how they never have to clean them. I kind of look at my Gas Trap Carbine as the "Glock" of AR’s. I am confident that it too can survive in much more inhospitable conditions than the original Stoner System.

Granted this is just my opinion. I won't be carrying it in to battle to test my opinion any time soon. The worst I could expect would be to use it to defend my family and home in a "Katrina" type disaster.

Let's pray I don't have that opportunity.
Link Posted: 3/29/2006 10:51:53 AM EDT
If its not broken.. dont fix it. My AR's function perfect and I dont plan on modding the system to somthing else just because.
Link Posted: 3/29/2006 10:53:07 AM EDT

Originally Posted By demigod:

Originally Posted By FITTER:
Seriously, what's to improve on? I don't have a lot of problems with mine; do you?



Exactly. The benefits that are being touted by the piston heads are that you keep heat and fouling out of the upper receiver/ bolt group. Heat and Fouling have never been a problem in any of my guns.



If you shoot a thousand rounds in one day in 120 degree heat it MIGHT be. It certainly is not a problem for me either.
Link Posted: 3/29/2006 10:59:39 AM EDT
Yes, the next generation of military rifles are near. That doesn't mean that much for the AR though. Simply look at the premiere rifles of the past, as they sure havne't gone any where.

FAL
M14
HK G3
AK47

All of these rifles still have your average gun nuts heart throbbing, and will probably continue to do so for years to come. The M16 still has alot of time left as a military weapon, but other systems are progressing quickly. It's a deal where we will have to wait and see how it plays out. Grab up as many AR's as you want as the other desings are still a ways away.
Link Posted: 3/29/2006 12:13:11 PM EDT
You can buy Yugo clones of the 98K all day long. (I love mine) That’s 98 as in 1898 btw, the design in 108 years old and it still works fine.

Firearms technology has more or less peaked. There will be minor improvements, but nothing that will render current weapons obsolete.
Link Posted: 3/29/2006 12:22:36 PM EDT
Link Posted: 3/29/2006 12:29:21 PM EDT
Firearms technology has more or less peaked. There will be minor improvements, but nothing that will render current weapons obsolete.

That is a gutsy statement. Can I quote you? I wonder how many times that statement has been said in recorded history. I have been around a good many years but I still think this human race has a few tricks up its sleeve.
Link Posted: 3/29/2006 12:41:37 PM EDT
No more advances in firearms technology? Bullshit. Maybe now is a good time to bring up Metal Storm. Not that us civvies will ever get to play with it...
Link Posted: 3/29/2006 7:44:41 PM EDT
I think there is an automotive parallel here. Lets call a standard AR a Camaro. Slap a couple of high speed, useful accessories on it, and now you have a Corvette. Add a 10.5" Leitner-Weise gas piston upper with a freefloat rail, a Noveske brake and an Eotech 553, and now you have a NASCAR Monte Carlo.

Most people get buy with a car that will do 100. Some want at least 120. Or 150mph. There aren't a lot who need to do 200. Since I don't drive anywhere I could go 200mph, I don't need to spend the money on something that will do it. My AR is kind of the same way. I don't know if I've got one at Corvette level, but I'm happy with mine. They will do everything I can conceive of needing to get done. If I'm ever in an occupation where I need 200mph, then I'll prioritize getting that piston upper.
Link Posted: 3/29/2006 8:06:00 PM EDT
Some users just completed testing the LW guns out here in the sunny tropics. They shoot on average 5000 rounds per man per month. (Holy crap!). They like the idea that they can get by with a wipe down and bore batch every day.

At the demo (not the testing), 2 guns ate 3 cans of ammo in 105 degree heat in 3 hours.
They haven't cleaned the gun once despite throwing it in mud, submerging it etc. It goes home filthy.......

They have M16A1s presently so they know how to susataina nd maintain DI. Suffice to say that they are not looking at any DI to replace those guns.

Link Posted: 3/29/2006 9:24:33 PM EDT
The M14/M1A has certainly not disappeared since M16/AR15's have been on the scene.
Link Posted: 3/29/2006 11:47:42 PM EDT
I do not think that the AR, atleast in shape, will dissappear anytime soon. However I do think that pistons will be the future opperating system of any new U.S. military arm, and as an AR accessory I do not think of them as fads at all. The real question is not whether or not a piston will be in the next rifle that SF personel use it is whether or not the next rifle they use will be based on the M4 or not. Regardless of what happens the gun market will get shaken up whenever the next rifle for the big army or the SF is chosen. So far people say that the FN SCAR for civilians is two or three years out, the way the gun companies work that could mean we get it tomorrow or in twenty years. So unless I hear that it will be in civilian hands within the end of about a year and a half and that the SF guys love em like their own mother I plan to pistonize my AR15.
Link Posted: 3/30/2006 1:11:33 AM EDT
When you have a good weapon such as the m-16/m4 it will stay around for decades. The M-16/M4 is an extremely high quality weapon. It is probably the favorite rifle I have ever fired. The DoD doesn't buy into fads as people have stated. Look at the Colt 1911: It was a powerful pistol and got the job done, and it stayed in service through four wars. The AR era is here to stay for much more longer.
Link Posted: 3/30/2006 1:51:23 AM EDT

Originally Posted By demigod:
Bro! Don't sweat it!

Do you know how many FADS I've seen come and go over the years here? The piston thing will have a nitch probably, but it's a solution to a problem that doesn't exsist.




I agree for the most part demi, but with respect to it being "a solution to a problem that doesn't exist"...

The Achilles heel of the M16/AR15 has always been gunk in the action, and a generally dirty-running platform (not just an AK enthusiasts chant)

The piston method is proving to be a much cleaner running alternative. For that reason alone, it is getting the attention - not to mention millions in investments - from the largest small arms makers in the world today*.

(* - Hk, Colt)
Link Posted: 3/30/2006 2:02:12 AM EDT
tag to reply when I have time The 45 is comming back to just do not know who will make it?
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