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Posted: 3/26/2006 1:37:53 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/26/2006 1:41:58 PM EDT by jaymeister99]
Tried my AR today with an upgraded extractor, worked flawless with all the ammo I had probs with before. Guatemalan, Q3131, UMC, and OLD Wolf. All worked 100%, not a single jam.

Then I tried shooting some old reloads I had bought a few years ago. A damm round is jammed into the chamber. Sticks out about 1/4 inch out of the chamber. Stuck a cleaning rod in to tap it out, didnt move. But out came gun powder! After some further examination seems like the bullet is back inside the case! The round has not fired, the primer is still live. This wasnt an extraction failure, but damm it pisses me off!


Link Posted: 3/26/2006 1:45:12 PM EDT
if it had fored with the round pushed back in the case it would of blown your rifle up, don't use shitty ammo, if your going to use reloads use your own
Link Posted: 3/26/2006 1:48:18 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/26/2006 1:49:15 PM EDT by GhostRing]
try like hell to get the upper and lower separated (you might need to take off the buffer tube)

GENTLY pry the round out by leveraging against the front takedown lug and the extactor groove
in the case with a flathead screwdriver.

Should pop out!

(ask me how I know...)

Link Posted: 3/26/2006 1:51:28 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/26/2006 1:54:33 PM EDT by Weazer]
If you have powder coming out, soak whatever is left down with oil of some sorts then you should be able to tap it out. You need to soak it to prevent the primer and any powder from igniting.

Forgot to add that you will need to get the upper and lower separated.

Weazer
Link Posted: 3/26/2006 1:54:42 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Weazer:
If you have powder coming out, soak whatever is left down with oil of some sorts then you should be able to tap it out. You need to soak it to prevent the primer and any powder from igniting.

Weazer




+1

use a light penetrating oil like 10w40, and when you tap it out don't have your face in front of the muzzle or any body part for that matter and wear safty glasses
Link Posted: 3/26/2006 2:14:10 PM EDT
put a rag up in behind the case. Stand the rifle muzzle up, and put plenty of penetrating oil in the muzzle. let it stand overnight. When you see oil on the rag, you'll know that it's seeped around the casing. Use a SOLID steel drill rod to tap the case back out of the chamber, NOT a hollow aluminum cleaning rod. The latter can become bulged, split, or wedged between the bullet and the chamber wall.
Link Posted: 3/26/2006 2:28:39 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/26/2006 2:30:10 PM EDT by jaymeister99]

Originally Posted By unusual:
put a rag up in behind the case. Stand the rifle muzzle up, and put plenty of penetrating oil in the muzzle. let it stand overnight. When you see oil on the rag, you'll know that it's seeped around the casing. Use a SOLID steel drill rod to tap the case back out of the chamber, NOT a hollow aluminum cleaning rod. The latter can become bulged, split, or wedged between the bullet and the chamber wall.



Tried the oil, its sitting right now. As for the rod, I tried using the steel cleaning rod, the bullet is apparently inside the case. Let me clarify that INSIDE, not stuck in the neck where it should be, down inside the case.

I doubt it will get knocked out with a rod. I couldnt get the upper off since the bolt wont close. But tommorrow I was planning on taking the buffer tube off and pulling out the bolt assembly, at least then I can get the upper off. Then get a pair of vise needle nose pliers and pull it out. If that dont work, then its off to the gunsmith. No way Im going to try to smack out a live round with a rod.
Link Posted: 3/26/2006 2:36:48 PM EDT

Originally Posted By GhostRing:
try like hell to get the upper and lower separated (you might need to take off the buffer tube)

GENTLY pry the round out by leveraging against the front takedown lug and the extactor groove
in the case with a flathead screwdriver.

Should pop out!

(ask me how I know...)




Cant get at with a screwdriver, even if the upper was separated. Only chance is to pull it out with a plier, or punch it out with a rod, and I dont think Im going to do the latter unless I can be 100% sure the primer wont go off.
Link Posted: 3/26/2006 11:45:47 PM EDT
if the oil can get in the case and you oiled the hell out of it and left it there over night I would try it
Link Posted: 3/27/2006 12:05:58 AM EDT
If you have any Kroil, soak down the primer and put some down the barrel,and leave it sit overnight. Kroil will kill the primer and the powder, then try smacking on the cleaning rod again
Link Posted: 3/27/2006 12:48:19 AM EDT
Tagged for the outcome.


______________________________



Link Posted: 3/27/2006 2:15:52 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/27/2006 2:16:46 AM EDT by jaymeister99]

Originally Posted By dpmmn:
If you have any Kroil, soak down the primer and put some down the barrel,and leave it sit overnight. Kroil will kill the primer and the powder, then try smacking on the cleaning rod again



Dont have any, dropped some marvel mystery oil down the barrel. But if this round isnt sitting like I expect it is then I got more to worry about. I'' try to get it ou tonight, but if it dont budge Im not going crazy trying to get it out. If this happens to be powder from another round somehow and that round is in there deformed, well then I can kiss my ass goodbye if the primer ignites.
Link Posted: 3/27/2006 2:15:54 AM EDT
Had this happen. The dents in the concrete floor in my garage from the sold steel rods that I had machined to drive the round out, still get it to budge. In the end, I just removed the barrel, put in a new barrel, and trashed the old one.

Good luck though.

SPC Richard A. White, Senior Medic
249th MP Detachment (EACF)
Camp Humphreys, ROK
Link Posted: 3/27/2006 3:44:20 AM EDT
If you're not comfortable working on your rifle in this condiction then by all means take it to a smith to have the problem solved.

If you go the smith route remember to ask the three questions (cause, prevention and cure) when you pick it up.

Hope it all works out well.
Link Posted: 3/27/2006 4:25:16 AM EDT
Trying to drive the case out from the muzzle is NOT a good idea since the force is also expanding the case walls against the chamber.

Use the following if and only IF you are ABSOLUTELY sure the primer and powder are oil saturated.

You stated that you could see about 1/4" of the case. Use about a 1/8" drill bit and BY HAND drill into the side of the case. Use more oil and spray it into and around the case. Once this has set for a while, you can increase the size of the hole to what ever can be done without affecting the upper. You can then try inserting a steel punch into the hole and try hitting it laterally with a small brass or other "soft" hammer like an alternate bolt handle. Gentle taps. This method works more like the extractor and pulls on the case. Since the case is tapered, once it gets any movement, it should come loose fairly abruptly.

Good luck. I'm sure others will flame me for this idea, but is does work as long as you are patient and take things slow.

WEAR EYE/FACE PROTECTION AT ALL TIMES
Link Posted: 3/27/2006 2:32:52 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Big-FED:
Trying to drive the case out from the muzzle is NOT a good idea since the force is also expanding the case walls against the chamber.

Use the following if and only IF you are ABSOLUTELY sure the primer and powder are oil saturated.

You stated that you could see about 1/4" of the case. Use about a 1/8" drill bit and BY HAND drill into the side of the case. Use more oil and spray it into and around the case. Once this has set for a while, you can increase the size of the hole to what ever can be done without affecting the upper. You can then try inserting a steel punch into the hole and try hitting it laterally with a small brass or other "soft" hammer like an alternate bolt handle. Gentle taps. This method works more like the extractor and pulls on the case. Since the case is tapered, once it gets any movement, it should come loose fairly abruptly.

Good luck. I'm sure others will flame me for this idea, but is does work as long as you are patient and take things slow.

WEAR EYE/FACE PROTECTION AT ALL TIMES



Thats not going to work, there is not enough room in there to get a drill bil diagonally across the case. Besides nobody can be 100% sure the bullet has been shoved back into the case, it does seem apparent that is what has happened, but unless you have a micro surgery probe and a fiber optic light to stick down the barrel that you can loan me, Im not trying it.

Im likely going to wind up dropping it at the gunsmith. Anybody got any idea what this SHOULD cost, and dont tell me depends, blah blah, blah, I know that. Just need a roundabout number if you know, or at least what a smith will charge to look at it.
Link Posted: 3/27/2006 2:37:50 PM EDT
Should be about 50 bucks. Note, NEVER use reloads in an AR.
Link Posted: 3/27/2006 2:41:06 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/27/2006 2:41:52 PM EDT by jaymeister99]

Originally Posted By ar-wrench:
Should be about 50 bucks. Note, NEVER use reloads in an AR.



Yeah now you tell me! Never again, except if Im loading em. AR-Wrench are you a gunsmith?

Link Posted: 3/27/2006 2:43:57 PM EDT
i would try to see if ya get the just the bullet out, and the powder, then go at it with an easy out.
i've had similar jams like that in mini 14, and that how ive go them out
Link Posted: 3/27/2006 2:54:19 PM EDT

Originally Posted By jaymeister99:

Originally Posted By ar-wrench:
Should be about 50 bucks. Note, NEVER use reloads in an AR.



Yeah now you tell me! Never again, except if Im loading em. AR-Wrench are you a gunsmith?




"AR" stands for Aircraft. I only work on my own firearms.

Your own reloads are vastly different than a stranger's. The AR does not fully support the case heqd, and an overpressure failure can destroy the rifle. Other rifle designs handle overpressure better, but can still be damaged.

Have you considered setting up a slide hammer to drive the rod against the stuck case? That way you will not have any body parts near the muzzle. Can even be done remotely via a string.
Link Posted: 3/27/2006 3:00:51 PM EDT

Originally Posted By ar-wrench:

Originally Posted By jaymeister99:

Originally Posted By ar-wrench:
Should be about 50 bucks. Note, NEVER use reloads in an AR.



Yeah now you tell me! Never again, except if Im loading em. AR-Wrench are you a gunsmith?




"AR" stands for Aircraft. I only work on my own firearms.

Your own reloads are vastly different than a stranger's. The AR does not fully support the case heqd, and an overpressure failure can destroy the rifle. Other rifle designs handle overpressure better, but can still be damaged.

Have you considered setting up a slide hammer to drive the rod against the stuck case? That way you will not have any body parts near the muzzle. Can even be done remotely via a string.



whats a slide hammer?
Link Posted: 3/27/2006 3:03:36 PM EDT
Can you get the extractor on the bolt to close back on the case rim?

If so, hook the release side of the charging handle on something solid.

If on the range the range bench will work the best.

Keeping the weapon pointed down range with the safety on and mag removed...

Violently push the rifle forward. Keep your fingers out of the way of the bench.

This should clear the rifle. Then you will need to take it apart and clean the chamber real good.
Link Posted: 3/27/2006 3:11:40 PM EDT
Lock the bolt to the rear. Insert cleaning rod. Whack end of cleaning rod with hammer until case comes out.

Wear eye protection.

Don't stand over the muzzel.

Hopefully the back of the cartridge will not snap off. If it does then you will need a case extraction tool.

Link Posted: 3/27/2006 3:35:34 PM EDT
Tag for outcome

Link Posted: 3/27/2006 3:42:57 PM EDT
Link Posted: 3/27/2006 3:43:44 PM EDT
Take off the butt stock, buffer tube and spring. Then remove the bolt. You should be able to seperate the upper and lower. Use a solid steel rod to pound the case out. Since the bolt is out, you won't set off the primer, especially since the base of the bullet covers the primer hole. Even without the bullet, you'd be pounding on the case bottom and not on the primer hy.gif

The problem was likely caused by a case that was neck sized for another rifle. Although you might be able to get away with neck sizing if you fire the rounds in your own rifle, I'd not recommend it. Good luck and let us know how you make out hinking.gif
Link Posted: 3/27/2006 3:45:58 PM EDT
5 Ib Maul and a steel punch
Link Posted: 3/27/2006 3:46:44 PM EDT

Originally Posted By drobs:
Can you get the extractor on the bolt to close back on the case rim?

If so, hook the release side of the charging handle on something solid.

If on the range the range bench will work the best.

Keeping the weapon pointed down range with the safety on and mag removed...

Violently push the rifle forward. Keep your fingers out of the way of the bench.

This should clear the rifle. Then you will need to take it apart and clean the chamber real good.



been there, done that. Not even close to moving.
Link Posted: 3/27/2006 3:49:31 PM EDT

Originally Posted By simply_green:
Lock the bolt to the rear. Insert cleaning rod. Whack end of cleaning rod with hammer until case comes out.

Wear eye protection.

Don't stand over the muzzel.

Hopefully the back of the cartridge will not snap off. If it does then you will need a case extraction tool.




been there, done that.
Link Posted: 3/27/2006 3:52:00 PM EDT

Originally Posted By simply_green:
Lock the bolt to the rear. Insert cleaning rod. Whack end of cleaning rod with hammer until case comes out.
Go to LOWES, and find the assorted metal bin, and get a piece of 3/16 solid steel rod. Drop the rod down the muzzle, and hit it a few times to knock the stuck round out of the chamber.

Wear eye protection.

Don't stand over the muzzel.

Hopefully the back of the cartridge will not snap off. If it does then you will need a case extraction tool.




What he says ...

One of these is good for saving yourself an early trip home from the range... I drop all my ammo -

Link Posted: 3/27/2006 3:52:14 PM EDT

Originally Posted By David_Hineline:
Your gunsmith is going to tap/pound it out with a rod, the reason this happened is the round fired before this one separated at the neck and when you chambered the next round it jammed the cartridge into the neck and stuck it good. Use Kroil it will seep in around the stuck case, put the gun into the freezer the brass will shrink more than the steel chamber and pound it out with a rod.



That was one of my theories, but it is NOT fact. That doesnt explain the 25 grains or so of gun pwder that came out on the end of the cleaning rod. The previous case was found, it did not separate.
Link Posted: 3/27/2006 3:56:27 PM EDT

Originally Posted By SBR7_11:

Originally Posted By simply_green:
Lock the bolt to the rear. Insert cleaning rod. Whack end of cleaning rod with hammer until case comes out.
Go to LOWES, and find the assorted metal bin, and get a piece of 3/16 solid steel rod. Drop the rod down the muzzle, and hit it a few times to knock the stuck round out of the chamber. ETA - Very good idea since you will probably ruin rod sections.

Wear eye protection.

Don't stand over the muzzel.

Hopefully the back of the cartridge will not snap off. If it does then you will need a case extraction tool.




What he says ...

One of these is good for saving yourself an early trip home from the range... I drop all my ammo -

img.photobucket.com/albums/v504/capttoyota/gauge1.jpg

Link Posted: 3/27/2006 3:58:13 PM EDT

Originally Posted By RifleDude:
Take off the butt stock, buffer tube and spring. Then remove the bolt. You should be able to seperate the upper and lower. Use a solid steel rod to pound the case out. Since the bolt is out, you won't set off the primer, especially since the base of the bullet covers the primer hole. Even without the bullet, you'd be pounding on the case bottom and not on the primer

The problem was likely caused by a case that was neck sized for another rifle. Although you might be able to get away with neck sizing if you fire the rounds in your own rifle, I'd not recommend it. Good luck and let us know how you make out



That pretty much my plan for tomorrow night. First I want to get the upper off, which requires the buffer to be removed through the back by taking out the buffer tube, buit I dont know if it will come out through there, well see. From there I'll try to take it out with a needle nose plier, if that dont work then MAYBE one last try with a rod in the barrel. And if that dont work then its off to the gunsmith.

As for the neck sizing, these were crap reloads apparently. Who knows, could have been thinned out brass, overpowered, broken neck, bad seating, any number of things. We'll have a better idea when we get the round out.
Link Posted: 3/27/2006 4:04:58 PM EDT


Go to LOWES, and find the assorted metal bin, and get a piece of 3/16 solid steel rod. Drop the rod down the muzzle, and hit it a few times to knock the stuck round out of the chamber.




Couldnt this potentially be catastrophic? I really want to try this, but frankly unlesss I can be guaranteed this wont wind up causing me to get blown up I really dont think I should try it. Does anybody here speak from experience or real technical knowledge on this?
Link Posted: 3/27/2006 4:11:40 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/27/2006 4:19:20 PM EDT by FMJ]
man if a military M16 rod wont do it then go to a GUN SMITH


seems like it should tap out!

I had a Blue box black hills 77gr get stuck and all I did was to use little sharp taps with the cleaning rod?

If you used WD40 Best and still it wont come out? Even if you tap the rod with a hammer?

I dont think the round will go off? make sure its on safe!

seems like it would have to hit the fire Pin to go off?
Link Posted: 3/27/2006 4:16:46 PM EDT

Originally Posted By FMJ:
man if a military M16 rod wont do it then go to a gun smith!




Im just about ready to. No offense to anybody here, the help/comments/suggestions is ALL definitely appreciated. But in my humblest opinion with all due respect, nobofdy here is going to be smacking a live round out of their chamber, which may have the potential to detonate and kill me.

If I can get some serious assurance that wont happen, then yea I might hit harder with a rod.
Link Posted: 3/27/2006 4:20:25 PM EDT
Put you upper in a container and send it to me. I'll knock it out and send it back.

You just pay the shipping.
Link Posted: 3/27/2006 4:21:06 PM EDT
OK here is what you do:

1. Close the bolt if it is open and make sure the extractor goes over the rim.
2. get a firm grip on the charging handle with your right hand
3. get a firm grip on the barrel with the left.
4. raise the rifle off of a carpeted floor about 8" and while pulling the charging handle down hit the butt on the floor with moderate force. It may take a few tries but I have yet to see one that you couldn't PoGo out.
Link Posted: 3/27/2006 4:21:34 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/27/2006 4:27:50 PM EDT by FMJ]
Now Im mad! I hate that shit!
Tell us how it comes out!

you could email DANO
Link Posted: 3/27/2006 4:21:41 PM EDT

Originally Posted By SBR7_11:
Put you upper in a container and send it to me. I'll knock it out and send it back.

You just pay the shipping.



Have you done this before?
Link Posted: 3/27/2006 4:23:41 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/27/2006 4:27:02 PM EDT by FMJ]
I bet he would do the same as I


I KNOW for sure DANO on the other forum he knows TROUBLE SHOOTING

POST YOUR PROBLEM THERE you will get a better results
Link Posted: 3/27/2006 4:35:51 PM EDT
I assume the stuck case is a complete cartridge... I'm just going to drop my WOLF stuck case tool (3/16 steel dowel) down the bore from the muzzle, on top of the bullet, and knock the round out.


Hitting the bullet will not detonate the primer, it might set the bullet into the case, and compress the powder, making for a more solid base to drive the works out.

As long as you do not strike the primer via fire pin or other impact, all will be well.

You ideally could have been to LOWES already, and 1 hit with mallet remedied your situation.
Link Posted: 3/27/2006 4:43:38 PM EDT

Originally Posted By NoHarmNoFAL-01:
OK here is what you do:

1. Close the bolt if it is open and make sure the extractor goes over the rim.
2. get a firm grip on the charging handle with your right hand
3. get a firm grip on the barrel with the left.
4. raise the rifle off of a carpeted floor about 8" and while pulling the charging handle down hit the butt on the floor with moderate force. It may take a few tries but I have yet to see one that you couldn't PoGo out.



Well then stop by my house and I'll show you one. Ive tried that a few times, so did a friend of mine, and so did both of us. Didnt work.
Link Posted: 3/27/2006 4:44:49 PM EDT

Originally Posted By FMJ:
I bet he would do the same as I


I KNOW for sure DANO on the other forum he knows TROUBLE SHOOTING

POST YOUR PROBLEM THERE you will get a better results



I'll try there too, thanks FMJ.
Link Posted: 3/27/2006 4:46:52 PM EDT

Originally Posted By SBR7_11:
I assume the stuck case is a complete cartridge... I'm just going to drop my WOLF stuck case tool (3/16 steel dowel) down the bore from the muzzle, on top of the bullet, and knock the round out.


Hitting the bullet will not detonate the primer, it might set the bullet into the case, and compress the powder, making for a more solid base to drive the works out.

As long as you do not strike the primer via fire pin or other impact, all will be well.

You ideally could have been to LOWES already, and 1 hit with mallet remedied your situation.



Ok, I'll try this, if I die you cant have my mags.
Link Posted: 3/27/2006 4:50:13 PM EDT

Originally Posted By SBR7_11:
I assume the stuck case is a complete cartridge... I'm just going to drop my WOLF stuck case tool (3/16 steel dowel) down the bore from the muzzle, on top of the bullet, and knock the round out.


Hitting the bullet will not detonate the primer, it might set the bullet into the case, and compress the powder, making for a more solid base to drive the works out.

As long as you do not strike the primer via fire pin or other impact, all will be well.

You ideally could have been to LOWES already, and 1 hit with mallet remedied your situation.



This is the solution. I too have had to drive out many stuck Wolf cases using this method. If you doused the round with oil down the bore, it won't go off. A stout steel rod is required (NOT aluminum) and a hammer to pound on the rod from the muzzle end... this is not the time to pussy out. As others have said, a gunsmith would do the same thing.
Link Posted: 3/27/2006 7:38:40 PM EDT
Even if you COULD set the powder off after the oil soaking you gave it(and I doubt it would burn), the bullet is no longer blocking the exit to build pressure. Maybe if your rod were just big enough to block the bore it might create a pressure problem. To be safe use one substantially smaller than bore diameter. Any potential combustion will in all likelihood be a quick WHOOSH rather than the explosive BANG you so dread.
Link Posted: 3/28/2006 2:06:36 AM EDT

Originally Posted By tenmikemike:
Even if you COULD set the powder off after the oil soaking you gave it(and I doubt it would burn), the bullet is no longer blocking the exit to build pressure. Maybe if your rod were just big enough to block the bore it might create a pressure problem. To be safe use one substantially smaller than bore diameter. Any potential combustion will in all likelihood be a quick WHOOSH rather than the explosive BANG you so dread.



NOPE, ITS GOING TO A GUNSMITH. cant be 100% sure the powder is from that round. According to the great DANO it should be taken to a smithy.
Link Posted: 3/28/2006 2:34:47 AM EDT
This is why i nnever use reloads!!!! period, not worth it to me unless they are my reloads and i dont relaod!!
Link Posted: 3/28/2006 6:22:37 AM EDT
I had the same problem, maybe you guys remember it a while back.

realized later my friend had inserted a wolf 5.45x39 round into the mag.

hk940 eventually got it out.
Link Posted: 3/28/2006 7:02:02 AM EDT
I had this exact same thing happen to me. I used a brass rod down the barrel and tapped it out with a hammer. I felt the bullet drop into the case and realized that it was a live round but operating on the theory that the primer will not fire unless struck from the outside I continued to tap on the brass rod until the case came out. I used a brass rod to avoid damage to the barrel. Worked for me. Poorly sized reloads. Dumped powder into the FCG and was a mess to clean out but other than that it is fine. YMMV
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