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Posted: 3/22/2006 9:55:17 AM EDT


I just wanted to know the opinions on having a barrel cut down to 11.5 inches with a 5.5 inch supressor bolted on. Right now I have a 16 inch and no flash hider on the weapon. I wanted to know if the 5.5 inch supressor is more effective than the 2 inch vortex. Trying to make the ultimate short close confrontations weapon without having a SBR. What are the upsides of this set up and the downsides? Is there a significant loss in accuracy at 100 yards?
Link Posted: 3/22/2006 10:13:38 AM EDT
11.5 w/ 5.5 looks darn cool, like the old xme177.The skinny a1 profiles look the best imho.
dont know if they work better than phantom or vortex,11.5 looses velocity not accuracy
Link Posted: 3/22/2006 10:14:56 AM EDT
don't do it, Jethro!

11.5/5.5 is the WORST of both worlds. You get the crappy velocity of an 11.5 with the full length of 16 inches.

Just get your 16 incher threaded.
Link Posted: 3/22/2006 10:18:03 AM EDT
you gain absolutely nothing by going with the 11'' + 5". It still has to be 16" overall,
Link Posted: 3/22/2006 10:19:03 AM EDT

Originally Posted By jasonhgross:
... I wanted to know if the 5.5 inch supressor is more effective than the 2 inch vortex.


Not just no, but a HELL NO.

The 5.5" non NFA FA is just to give you the 'look' of the XM177's moderator. It is not an effective flash supressor.


Trying to make the ultimate short close confrontations weapon without having a SBR.

14.5" (M4 or LightWeight) with a Vortex. Same 16" length, best flash supression, and better MV so if you need to use M855 or M193 they will still fragment at the ranges you could expect.


What are the upsides of this set up and the downsides?

ZERO upsides (other than cool looks).

Downsides: More muzzle flash, more muzzle blast, less muzzle velocity



Is there a significant loss in accuracy at 100 yards?


There will be no change in accuracy.
Link Posted: 3/22/2006 10:19:19 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/22/2006 10:19:46 AM EDT by steve-oh]

Originally Posted By markm:
don't do it, Jethro!

11.5/5.5 is the WORST of both worlds. You get the crappy velocity of an 11.5 with the full length of 16 inches.

Just get your 16 incher threaded.



I am in complete agreement with Cleatus on this one.
Link Posted: 3/22/2006 10:24:52 AM EDT

Originally Posted By markm:
don't do it, Jethro!

11.5/5.5 is the WORST of both worlds. You get the crappy velocity of an 11.5 with the full length of 16 inches.

Just get your 16 incher threaded.



Don't listen to this guy. It looks cool.

<­BR>



Link Posted: 3/22/2006 10:32:43 AM EDT
yes it looks cool. Nevermind that it doesn't suppress flash and you lose MV for the cool factor.....

shortest thing is a 14.5" + a vortx or phantom it equals 16.1" and suppresses very well for only a slight reduction in MV over the 16". If it matters, a 16" + A2 = about 17.2" or something don't remember exactly....
Link Posted: 3/22/2006 10:37:17 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/22/2006 10:37:49 AM EDT by Stickman]
Link Posted: 3/22/2006 10:42:13 AM EDT
However, 11.5" is a fine length for a 9mm conversion barrel, so my 9mm AR is set up like this.
Link Posted: 3/22/2006 10:47:01 AM EDT
i vote you get your SBR lisence and have what you really want
Link Posted: 3/22/2006 10:48:48 AM EDT
to clarify, I think the 5.5'' is a great idea if you're doing a replica build, but if your looking for real world use its not a good idea at all...
Link Posted: 3/22/2006 10:53:15 AM EDT
You are all very very helpful. I love the look, but practicality is going to get the better of me here. I will have the barrel cut to 14.5 (By ADCO) and add a flash supressor (vortex) to that. Thank you all so much.
Link Posted: 3/22/2006 10:53:57 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/22/2006 10:55:17 AM EDT by thedoctors308]

Originally Posted By markm:
don't do it, Jethro!

11.5/5.5 is the WORST of both worlds. You get the crappy velocity of an 11.5 with the full length of 16 inches.

Just get your 16 incher threaded.



Don't listen to markm.
Do it, and make sure to get an enhanced trigger guard and ranger plats on all your mags.

Seriously though, it has no benefits other that looks.
If you want a range toy, sure, knock yourself out.
If you want an effective weapon, cut it to 14.5, and then perm. attach a phantom or vortex.

ETA: You made the right choice.
Link Posted: 3/22/2006 11:20:54 AM EDT
Didn't somebody make a faux 5.5" FS during the ban era that you could use on a plain threaded 16" barrel to get the look w/o the drop in muzzle velocity? I was looking to do a retro build for my dad and thought that something like this might be the best of both worlds. Unless I get a hell of a deal on a 11.5/5.5 combo I think this is what I'm gonna do. Just some food for thought. If you don’t want to go the SBR route a 14.5 and a vortex is a pretty sweet set up. I like mine a lot!
Link Posted: 3/22/2006 11:26:22 AM EDT
Link Posted: 3/22/2006 11:48:07 AM EDT

Originally Posted By RiggerGod:
Didn't somebody make a faux 5.5" FS during the ban era that you could use on a plain threaded 16" barrel to get the look w/o the drop in muzzle velocity?



Bushmaster sold/sells it. However it makes the rifle very nose heavy.
Link Posted: 3/22/2006 11:50:46 AM EDT



spend the $200 on a stamp, and don't worry about the 5.5" FH.


Link Posted: 3/22/2006 12:06:18 PM EDT
someone used to make a reverse flash hider, it looked like xm177, but went over top the barrel.
Link Posted: 3/22/2006 12:11:52 PM EDT
I wouldn't do it might as well have the extra barrel length.

As far as those claiming a big loss in velocity you are wrong. Last weekend at the range I set my chrony up and on average the velocity out of my 11.5" barrel on my M16 was only 200 fps slower than another guys AR with a 16" barrel. Yes I used the same ammo out of the same box in both guns.
Link Posted: 3/22/2006 12:29:01 PM EDT

Originally Posted By steve-oh:

Originally Posted By markm:
don't do it, Jethro!

11.5/5.5 is the WORST of both worlds. You get the crappy velocity of an 11.5 with the full length of 16 inches.

Just get your 16 incher threaded.



I am in complete agreement with Cleatus on this one.



+1
Link Posted: 3/22/2006 12:34:43 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/22/2006 12:35:03 PM EDT by Stickman]
Link Posted: 3/22/2006 12:59:15 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Stickman:

Originally Posted By HunterCO:
I wouldn't do it might as well have the extra barrel length.

As far as those claiming a big loss in velocity you are wrong. Last weekend at the range I set my chrony up and on average the velocity out of my 11.5" barrel on my M16 was only 200 fps slower than another guys AR with a 16" barrel. Yes I used the same ammo out of the same box in both guns.




Take a look at the difference in fragmentation (from ammo-oracle) Call it what you want, to some of us, the contrast between them is massive.

M193

16" Barrel 140-150 meters

11.5" Barrel 40-45 meters


M855

16" Barrel 90-95 meters

11.5" Barrel 12-15 meters



There are only two kinds of ammo you can fire out of an AR15? Interesting.
Link Posted: 3/22/2006 1:10:49 PM EDT

Originally Posted By DigDug:

There are only two kinds of ammo you can fire out of an AR15? Interesting.



Link Posted: 3/22/2006 1:58:16 PM EDT
Link Posted: 3/22/2006 2:31:42 PM EDT

Originally Posted By RolandofGilead:
to clarify, I think the 5.5'' is a great idea if you're doing a replica build, but if your looking for real world use its not a good idea at all...



+1. My first build is a 11.5/5.5, but it's just for fun. If my life depended on it, I wouldn't use anything less than 14.5.
Link Posted: 3/22/2006 2:42:42 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/22/2006 2:52:17 PM EDT by M4-guy]
The 11.5" bbl + 5.5" FH setup is good for a retro-type build, but there's a better way if you want the look and still keep some muzzle velocity.

For retro builds, either you're going all out, 100% correct (slick side upper, XM177 moderator, SBR pencil-profile bbl, etc.), or doing what you consider "close-enough" (C7/A1 upper and maybe a 11.5 +5.5" type barrel). If you're a "purist" retro builder, this barrel is not for you. But they can sometimes be found cheap, so if you've got a spare A1 upper, it would make for an inexpensive build. No problem. If you like how it comes out, who's to say anything different.

Having said that, I wouldn't want one myself, simply because there's a better way. You can have both the muzzle velocity of an M4 AND a pretty authentic retro look. Here's an older Colt 14.5" pencil barrel with a permanently attached 5" slip-over flash hider (for a bbl OAL of 16.1").


Link Posted: 3/22/2006 3:14:32 PM EDT
Why don't you get one of those long FS that cover up the 16" barrel? It makes it look 11.5" but is really 16".
Link Posted: 3/22/2006 7:19:25 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Stickman:

Originally Posted By DigDug:

There are only two kinds of ammo you can fire out of an AR15? Interesting.



I would hope it is understood that is neither the implication of what I posted, nor do I think it is the implication of ammo-oracle.com. However, it does show that there is a large difference between barrel lengths, and types of ammunition.




Actually my chrony I seen with my own two eyes shows for a fact there is little difference. 16" barrel was running mid 2800 fps. 11.5" barrel was running mid 2600 fps. You really expect people to believe that will create the differences you posted sorry I have to call BS.
Link Posted: 3/22/2006 7:27:58 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Stickman:
The 11.5/5.5" FS gives a large drop in velocity, and the 5.5" FS really doesn't do anything very well aside from give it an old school look.



img154.imageshack.us/img154/8330/cheapxmclonestick1yr.jpg




Stick You are an Amazing Artist of Epic Proportion!!

Your Creations astound me.
Link Posted: 3/22/2006 7:31:11 PM EDT

Originally Posted By HunterCO:
Actually my chrony I seen with my own two eyes shows for a fact there is little difference. 16" barrel was running mid 2800 fps. 11.5" barrel was running mid 2600 fps. You really expect people to believe that will create the differences you posted sorry I have to call BS.



Stickman is right, I'd suggest listening to him. It's been well documented since the 1980s.

At 2600fps you're already BELOW the threshold for optimal fragmentation for M193 and M855.

You might want to read this primer before posting on this subject: Ammo Oracle
Link Posted: 3/22/2006 7:41:10 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Forest:

Originally Posted By HunterCO:
Actually my chrony I seen with my own two eyes shows for a fact there is little difference. 16" barrel was running mid 2800 fps. 11.5" barrel was running mid 2600 fps. You really expect people to believe that will create the differences you posted sorry I have to call BS.



Stickman is right, I'd suggest listening to him. It's been well documented since the 1980s.

At 2600fps you're already BELOW the threshold for optimal fragmentation for M193 and M855.

You might want to read this primer before posting on this subject: Ammo Oracle



You might want to get an education in ballistics before you post again this was at the muzzle. So by your ignorant thought proccess at 100 yds even out of the 16" barrel it would be below the 2600 fps. The experts have spoken an AR15 only has an effective range with a 16" barrel of 50 yds.

By the way save your links not all of us are niave and believe everything we see on the internet some of us actually do ballistic testing in real life.
Link Posted: 3/22/2006 7:45:49 PM EDT
Link Posted: 3/22/2006 7:55:32 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/22/2006 7:58:00 PM EDT by Forest]

Originally Posted By HunterCO:
You might want to get an education in ballistics before you post again this was at the muzzle. So by your ignorant thought proccess at 100 yds even out of the 16" barrel it would be below the 2600 fps.


That is correct IF you're shooting such slow ammo. M193 from a 16" barrel runs in the 3100fps range @15' - at least that is what MY chrony shows.


The experts have spoken an AR15 only has an effective range with a 16" barrel of 50 yds.

Do you always make such ignorant comments?


By the way save your links not all of us are niave and believe everything we see on the internet some of us actually do ballistic testing in real life.

Obviously you don't.

The Ammo Oracle is a compilation of data from some of the most noted researchers in the field including Dr Fackler (the Father of modern terminal ballistics research) and Dr. Roberts. Many of Fackler's papers are also linked up in the Ammo Forum for all to read. In particular I'd suggest "Wounding patterns of military rifle bullets" as it clearly covers what M193 does at a variety of velocities.

Shooting bullets through a chrony is not 'ballistic testing for terminal effects'. Most of here own chrony's but unless you're shooting into calibrated ballistic gel you don't know dick. I'd suggest you do a little research on the topic.
Link Posted: 3/22/2006 8:30:43 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Forest:

Originally Posted By HunterCO:
You might want to get an education in ballistics before you post again this was at the muzzle. So by your ignorant thought proccess at 100 yds even out of the 16" barrel it would be below the 2600 fps.


That is correct IF you're shooting such slow ammo. M193 from a 16" barrel runs in the 3100fps range @15' - at least that is what MY chrony shows.


The experts have spoken an AR15 only has an effective range with a 16" barrel of 50 yds.

Do you always make such ignorant comments?


By the way save your links not all of us are niave and believe everything we see on the internet some of us actually do ballistic testing in real life.

Obviously you don't.

The Ammo Oracle is a compilation of data from some of the most noted researchers in the field including Dr Fackler (the Father of modern terminal ballistics research) and Dr. Roberts. Many of Fackler's papers are also linked up in the Ammo Forum for all to read. In particular I'd suggest "Wounding patterns of military rifle bullets" as it clearly covers what M193 does at a variety of velocities.

Shooting bullets through a chrony is not 'ballistic testing for terminal effects'. Most of here own chrony's but unless you're shooting into calibrated ballistic gel you don't know dick. I'd suggest you do a little research on the topic.



Ballistic gel what is that? Sorry you are right you know more than anybody on earth you do after all post on Arf.com forgive me I know nothing now carry on and forget I even posted.
Link Posted: 3/22/2006 10:29:58 PM EDT

Originally Posted By HunterCO:

Originally Posted By Forest:

Originally Posted By HunterCO:
You might want to get an education in ballistics before you post again this was at the muzzle. So by your ignorant thought proccess at 100 yds even out of the 16" barrel it would be below the 2600 fps.


That is correct IF you're shooting such slow ammo. M193 from a 16" barrel runs in the 3100fps range @15' - at least that is what MY chrony shows.


The experts have spoken an AR15 only has an effective range with a 16" barrel of 50 yds.

Do you always make such ignorant comments?


By the way save your links not all of us are niave and believe everything we see on the internet some of us actually do ballistic testing in real life.

Obviously you don't.

The Ammo Oracle is a compilation of data from some of the most noted researchers in the field including Dr Fackler (the Father of modern terminal ballistics research) and Dr. Roberts. Many of Fackler's papers are also linked up in the Ammo Forum for all to read. In particular I'd suggest "Wounding patterns of military rifle bullets" as it clearly covers what M193 does at a variety of velocities.

Shooting bullets through a chrony is not 'ballistic testing for terminal effects'. Most of here own chrony's but unless you're shooting into calibrated ballistic gel you don't know dick. I'd suggest you do a little research on the topic.



Ballistic gel what is that? Sorry you are right you know more than anybody on earth you do after all post on Arf.com forgive me I know nothing now carry on and forget I even posted.



Man, maybe there needs to be a test for membership here...
Link Posted: 3/22/2006 10:31:08 PM EDT

Originally Posted By markm:
don't do it, Jethro!

11.5/5.5 is the WORST of both worlds. You get the crappy velocity of an 11.5 with the full length of 16 inches.

Just get your 16 incher threaded.



yup.
Link Posted: 3/22/2006 10:45:01 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Phoebus:



Man, maybe there needs to be a test for membership here...



+1000000
Link Posted: 3/23/2006 5:58:22 AM EDT

Originally Posted By HunterCO:

Originally Posted By Phoebus:



Man, maybe there needs to be a test for membership here...



+1000000



Too bad you failed.
Link Posted: 3/23/2006 6:09:36 AM EDT

Originally Posted By markm:
don't do it, Jethro!

11.5/5.5 is the WORST of both worlds. You get the crappy velocity of an 11.5 with the full length of 16 inches.

Just get your 16 incher threaded.



+1
Link Posted: 3/23/2006 7:09:54 AM EDT

Originally Posted By HunterCO:

Originally Posted By Forest:

Originally Posted By HunterCO:
Actually my chrony I seen with my own two eyes shows for a fact there is little difference. 16" barrel was running mid 2800 fps. 11.5" barrel was running mid 2600 fps. You really expect people to believe that will create the differences you posted sorry I have to call BS.



Stickman is right, I'd suggest listening to him. It's been well documented since the 1980s.

At 2600fps you're already BELOW the threshold for optimal fragmentation for M193 and M855.

You might want to read this primer before posting on this subject: Ammo Oracle



You might want to get an education in ballistics before you post again this was at the muzzle. So by your ignorant thought proccess at 100 yds even out of the 16" barrel it would be below the 2600 fps. The experts have spoken an AR15 only has an effective range with a 16" barrel of 50 yds.

By the way save your links not all of us are niave and believe everything we see on the internet some of us actually do ballistic testing in real life.



WOW! I don't think I've ever given a paid member the COVETED 5 TROLL AWARD!



Congrats!
Link Posted: 3/23/2006 1:05:16 PM EDT
Does anyone other than Oly sell a complete rifle with the 11.5"/5.5" barrel?

I've notice Bushmaster has the barrels... but it says that they can only be put on Pre-ban lowers. I though that was no longer the case since the ban was over.
Link Posted: 3/23/2006 1:12:58 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Kombayotch:
I've notice Bushmaster has the barrels... but it says that they can only be put on Pre-ban lowers. I though that was no longer the case since the ban was over.



Some states still have a ban so they are pulling a CYA. If you don't live in a ban state then by their thinking you are buying/owning a 'pre-ban'.
Link Posted: 3/23/2006 3:14:55 PM EDT
hunter,
Is it not possible for you to act like an adult? Can't you have a discussion with a disagreement and not get your panties all in a wad?

BTW- Max effective range is NOT the same thing as max fragmentation range. For a 5.56 to the at th hieght of its effectiveness it needs to fragment. It will not be AS effective if it does not frag. So, that 200fps if your using military ammo like so many do, DOES matter..
Link Posted: 3/23/2006 3:19:27 PM EDT

Originally Posted By steve-oh:

Originally Posted By markm:
don't do it, Jethro!

11.5/5.5 is the WORST of both worlds. You get the crappy velocity of an 11.5 with the full length of 16 inches.

Just get your 16 incher threaded.



I am in complete agreement with Cleatus on this one.



Hell I own one and I agree with ya'll. I love the little carbine but if this is your only one don't turn it into an 11.5/5.5. If you want one build another one or get the upper. They look nice and are neat but they are louder, can see the flash in broad daylight and like others have said it'll still be 16 inches.
Link Posted: 3/23/2006 3:38:09 PM EDT

Originally Posted By jasonhgross:

I just wanted to know the opinions on having a barrel cut down to 11.5 inches with a 5.5 inch supressor bolted on. Right now I have a 16 inch and no flash hider on the weapon. I wanted to know if the 5.5 inch supressor is more effective than the 2 inch vortex. Trying to make the ultimate short close confrontations weapon without having a SBR. What are the upsides of this set up and the downsides? Is there a significant loss in accuracy at 100 yards?



I am assuming here that by "superssor" you mean flash reducer. I have a bushy in this config and I like it alot. It is my #1 AR that I shoot.
Link Posted: 3/23/2006 4:21:23 PM EDT

Originally Posted By ManiacRat461:

Originally Posted By steve-oh:

Originally Posted By markm:
don't do it, Jethro!

11.5/5.5 is the WORST of both worlds. You get the crappy velocity of an 11.5 with the full length of 16 inches.

Just get your 16 incher threaded.



I am in complete agreement with Cleatus on this one.



Hell I own one and I agree with ya'll. I love the little carbine but if this is your only one don't turn it into an 11.5/5.5. If you want one build another one or get the upper. They look nice and are neat but they are louder, can see the flash in broad daylight and like others have said it'll still be 16 inches.



+1 I bought one on the EE, just for the "cool" factor. BIG flash, much bigger recoil (still not bad, but a lot more than out of the 14.5" barrels). Plus, it gave me an excuse to acquire another lower

--VT
Link Posted: 3/23/2006 4:40:40 PM EDT

Originally Posted By VT4meGunCtrlisAntiUS:

Originally Posted By ManiacRat461:

Originally Posted By steve-oh:

Originally Posted By markm:
don't do it, Jethro!

11.5/5.5 is the WORST of both worlds. You get the crappy velocity of an 11.5 with the full length of 16 inches.

Just get your 16 incher threaded.



I am in complete agreement with Cleatus on this one.



Hell I own one and I agree with ya'll. I love the little carbine but if this is your only one don't turn it into an 11.5/5.5. If you want one build another one or get the upper. They look nice and are neat but they are louder, can see the flash in broad daylight and like others have said it'll still be 16 inches.



+1 I bought one on the EE, just for the "cool" factor. BIG flash, much bigger recoil (still not bad, but a lot more than out of the 14.5" barrels). Plus, it gave me an excuse to acquire another lower

--VT



Same here. Mine is a flat top on a non slabslide lower so it's not historically accurate. But I just liked the look of the barrel. It's just Xm177ish in form.
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