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Posted: 3/16/2006 5:09:26 AM EDT
What do I need to look for in a good M4? I already know i'd like a 30 round mag and that this weapon will be fired often. Not only that but it will be subject to alot of the elements especially water. Can anyone tell me what brand or special features or material i should be looking for? I'd appreciate any help i can get from the experts here. Thanks.
Link Posted: 3/16/2006 8:47:56 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/16/2006 8:53:42 AM EDT by Frens]
I think a chrome lined barrel is needed if you are going to fire it alot and it will be subject to alot of elements.
A flot top upper receiver would be better than a standard A2 upper since it allows you to mount different kind of optics.
there are also different barrel profile (heavy or govt): I would take the govt profile for a semiauto M4.


there are a lot of good brands around here...Bushmaster for example makes excellent rifles


edit to add: if you want to mount a bayo without problems then go with a 14.5'' barrel with fixed FH over a 16'' barrel.
Link Posted: 3/16/2006 8:49:53 AM EDT
maybe look for a piston upper so its easier on maintenance.
Link Posted: 3/16/2006 8:51:45 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/16/2006 8:53:59 AM EDT by John44]
44mag.com for great mag a good price.
ETA:Post 87! Must be a good omen.
Link Posted: 3/16/2006 8:54:20 AM EDT
Also look at what you are going to use it for. Nothing bugs me more than somebody going "Im going to get a new gun, what should I get?" Please detail what you plan to do with it and how you want to apply your money. Also consider what elements you consider to be more important than others. If you can't answer these questions and write it down do you really think you're ready to buy a new gun and put down a good 800 bucks?
Link Posted: 3/16/2006 8:56:19 AM EDT
Here are features I want on my M4 upper:

M4 Feed Ramp Barrel Extension (USGI)
M4 Feed Ramp Flat Top Receiver
T-Marked Upper Receivers
USGI 1/7 Twist Rates
USGI 5.56 NATO Chambers
Mil-Spec 11595E - 4150 Grade Barrel Steel (CMV)
Chrome Lined Bore and Chamber
Manganese Phosphate Barrel Finish
Mil-Spec F-Marked Forged Front Sights
USGI Government Profile Barrels
HPT (High Pressure Test) Barrels
MPI (Magnetic Particle Inspected) Barrels


A good M4 will have all these features now days, the above is a description of BCM (Bravo Company USA) uppers, CMMG, ADCO and others on the EE can aquire uppers with the same or similar features,

RESEARCH first, then buy......, that means reading all the tacked threads in the AR15 section of the site.

Mike
Link Posted: 3/16/2006 8:57:08 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/16/2006 9:14:06 AM EDT by WayneG]
MGI Quick Change upper and Modular Lower. I love mine. The thing is adaptable to just about every caliber you'd want and barrel length and style. The fact that you can easily pop out the barrel for cleaning is a huge plus in a maritime environment, as is the ability to stow it in it's broke down form. Check it out over on the Industry section, on the MGI forum. Talk to TWL, he's their man here at ARFCOM.
Link Posted: 3/16/2006 9:04:05 AM EDT
1/7 twist rates only applies for anti-personnel ar's. 1/7 is HORRIBLE for varmint hunting. I use my AR mainly as a bunny gun out to 350 yards and if I had 1/7 twist rate I wouldn't be able to apply it thusly.
Link Posted: 3/16/2006 9:09:22 AM EDT

Originally Posted By ironsight-boy:
1/7 twist rates only applies for anti-personnel ar's. 1/7 is HORRIBLE for varmint hunting. I use my AR mainly as a bunny gun out to 350 yards and if I had 1/7 twist rate I wouldn't be able to apply it thusly.



Sorry but this information is just plain WRONG.

Mike

ps - he's asking about 14.5" barreled M4s here is-boy not varmint barrels and as noted above you are dead wrong anyway.
Link Posted: 3/16/2006 9:57:39 AM EDT

Originally Posted By ironsight-boy:
Also look at what you are going to use it for. Nothing bugs me more than somebody going "Im going to get a new gun, what should I get?" Please detail what you plan to do with it and how you want to apply your money. Also consider what elements you consider to be more important than others. If you can't answer these questions and write it down do you really think you're ready to buy a new gun and put down a good 800 bucks?



i stated in the first post that this will be exposed to the elements especially water be it submerged or heavy rain. it will be fired a great deal and i need it to hold up. im willing to spend from 800-1300 on the gun itself and then after that whatever extras i need. i already have a 6 pin stock in mind and dont mind perm iron sights but i'd prefer flat top that i can mount iron or scopes onto. i have no intensions on bayo's but may or may not be adding flashlight to the config. its going to be a basic rifle as i dont plan on being deployed to a war but still need it to be able to get the job dont and put down a threat.
Link Posted: 3/16/2006 9:58:43 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Frens:
I think a chrome lined barrel is needed if you are going to fire it alot and it will be subject to alot of elements.
A flot top upper receiver would be better than a standard A2 upper since it allows you to mount different kind of optics.
there are also different barrel profile (heavy or govt): I would take the govt profile for a semiauto M4.


there are a lot of good brands around here...Bushmaster for example makes excellent rifles hout



ok so chrome lined barrel is a good one for alot of water or dirt vs the regular barrels?
Link Posted: 3/16/2006 10:00:20 AM EDT

Originally Posted By mr_wilson:
Here are features I want on my M4 upper:

M4 Feed Ramp Barrel Extension (USGI)
M4 Feed Ramp Flat Top Receiver
T-Marked Upper Receivers
USGI 1/7 Twist Rates
USGI 5.56 NATO Chambers
Mil-Spec 11595E - 4150 Grade Barrel Steel (CMV)
Chrome Lined Bore and Chamber
Manganese Phosphate Barrel Finish
Mil-Spec F-Marked Forged Front Sights
USGI Government Profile Barrels
HPT (High Pressure Test) Barrels
MPI (Magnetic Particle Inspected) Barrels


A good M4 will have all these features now days, the above is a description of BCM (Bravo Company USA) uppers, CMMG, ADCO and others on the EE can aquire uppers with the same or similar features,

RESEARCH first, then buy......hat
Mike



ok yours sounds like a war rifle or am i reading more into it than i should? how much would a rig like that run? i will take my time and read the stickies as well thanks for the heads up.
Link Posted: 3/16/2006 10:01:54 AM EDT

Originally Posted By WayneG:
MGI Quick Change upper and Modular Lower. I love mine. The thing is adaptable to just about every caliber you'd want and barrel length and style. The fact that you can easily pop out the barrel for cleaning is a huge plus in a maritime environment, as is the ability to stow it in it's broke down form. Check it out over on the Industry section, on the MGI forum. Talk to TWL, he's their man here at ARFCOM.



ok now this version sounds more around what im looking for so far from what ive read. whats one like this run? is it stock or is this mixing and matching parts? for a gun who doesnt know about civilian versions of the weapon im just trying to get a handle on what i can go out and get. thanks.
Link Posted: 3/16/2006 10:04:58 AM EDT

Originally Posted By mr_wilson:

Originally Posted By ironsight-boy:
1/7 twist rates only applies for anti-personnel ar's. 1/7 is HORRIBLE for varmint hunting. I use my AR mainly as a bunny gun out to 350 yards and if I had 1/7 twist rate I wouldn't be able to apply it thusly.



Sorry but this information is just plain WRONG.

Mike

ps - he's asking about 14.5" barreled M4s here is-boy not varmint barrels and as noted above you are dead wrong anyway.



i actually havent mentioned a length but i am aware that the longer the better for distance. this isnt going to be in use at 200m so 14.5 is ok if it still gets the job done. im not going to be shooting animals thats for sure. it will get alot of target practice at the range and hopefully i wont have to engage any humans but if i do, i need it to be ready to go. also it will spend a good amount time around/in/under water.
Link Posted: 3/16/2006 10:08:02 AM EDT

Originally Posted By MIA_Philly:

Originally Posted By mr_wilson:

Originally Posted By ironsight-boy:
1/7 twist rates only applies for anti-personnel ar's. 1/7 is HORRIBLE for varmint hunting. I use my AR mainly as a bunny gun out to 350 yards and if I had 1/7 twist rate I wouldn't be able to apply it thusly.



Sorry but this information is just plain WRONG.

Mike

ps - he's asking about 14.5" barreled M4s here is-boy not varmint barrels and as noted above you are dead wrong anyway.



i actually havent mentioned a length but i am aware that the longer the better for distance. this isnt going to be in use at 200m so 14.5 is ok if it still gets the job done. im not going to be shooting animals thats for sure. it will get alot of target practice at the range and hopefully i wont have to engage any humans but if i do, i need it to be ready to go. also it will spend a good amount time around/in/under water.



around/in/under water. Sounds like your going to take it swimming and have showers with it :D
Link Posted: 3/16/2006 10:08:06 AM EDT

Originally Posted By MIA_Philly:
ok yours sounds like a war rifle or am i reading more into it than i should? how much would a rig like that run? i will take my time and read the stickies as well thanks for the heads up.



Mil-spec all the way, purchased my M4 BCM upper from Paul at Bravo for $399 sans b/bc/ch.

See them here: www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM.html

Mike
Link Posted: 3/16/2006 10:40:15 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/16/2006 10:42:22 AM EDT by WayneG]

Originally Posted By MIA_Philly:

Originally Posted By WayneG:
MGI Quick Change upper and Modular Lower. I love mine. The thing is adaptable to just about every caliber you'd want and barrel length and style. The fact that you can easily pop out the barrel for cleaning is a huge plus in a maritime environment, as is the ability to stow it in it's broke down form. Check it out over on the Industry section, on the MGI forum. Talk to TWL, he's their man here at ARFCOM.



ok now this version sounds more around what im looking for so far from what ive read. whats one like this run? is it stock or is this mixing and matching parts? for a gun who doesnt know about civilian versions of the weapon im just trying to get a handle on what i can go out and get. thanks.



MGI Forum:
MGI Forum

Edited to make the link hot.

I.M. twl for more info and pricing. I think this is what you are looking for.
Link Posted: 3/16/2006 10:53:03 AM EDT

Originally Posted By MIA_Philly:
i stated in the first post that this will be exposed to the elements especially water be it submerged or heavy rain. it will be fired a great deal and i need it to hold up. im willing to spend from 800-1300 on the gun itself and then after that whatever extras i need. i already have a 6 pin stock in mind and dont mind perm iron sights but i'd prefer flat top that i can mount iron or scopes onto. i have no intensions on bayo's but may or may not be adding flashlight to the config. its going to be a basic rifle as i dont plan on being deployed to a war but still need it to be able to get the job dont and put down a threat.




If you are around the Atlanta Ga area, look up the GA guys around there. They are super cool and have many toys. Toys that they will let you play with if you ask nicely. Some of them run full auto and suppressed. But its always nice to try sometime before you get one for yourself. Ive learned much from these guys and still call them today for advice.

Good luck!
Link Posted: 3/16/2006 12:26:24 PM EDT
Mr._Wilson is right. Everything he listed is what the industry standard is or is going to be for a Civilian M4- which is what you said you wanted. You didn't ask about getting your first AR15. You specifically said M4 and Mr. Wilson gave you 100% relevant info.

Personally, I think this being your first, Mr. Wilson's advise (and now mine) should be all you look at up to this point. The lower made for swapping out calibers is not a simple lower and isn't what you probably should be looking at for a first "M4."

After BCM and their true civilian mil-spec-like vesions, I'd go with CMMG (www.cmmginc.com) and look at a 14.7" barrel with permanently installed A2. The true military M4 has a 14.5" barrel with an A2 but that would be too short for a civilian to own without paying the $200 NFA tax.

CMMG sells very nice complete rifles. COMPLETE is a pretty important word in your case since you will end up getting a full factory warranty and the best customer service by going this route.




New production CMMG 14.7” M4 Carbine w/A2. Features include mil-spec fire control group and take-down pins, standard M4 profile barrel, chrome lined 5.56mm chamber and bore, 1/7 twist, parkerizing under “F” marked forged front sight base, forged upper and lower receiver, M4 feed ramps, M4 handguard caps, oversized M4 handguards and 6 position ribbed reinforced stock. All barrels are magnetic particle tested and all uppers have been factory head spaced and test fired. Included with weapon are hard case, cleaning kit, sling 2-30rd mags, manual and lifetime warranty.


$1,075.95

OR

A Bushmaster 14.5" with permanently attached phantom making it a legal full 16"

Link Posted: 3/16/2006 1:15:59 PM EDT
IMHO Mr_Wilson nailed for an M4 spec.


$1,075.95

OR

A Bushmaster 14.5" with permanently attached phantom making it a legal full 16"



Be careful here. The Bushmaster Cat. 2006 V.1 does not list a 1/7 twist.
Link Posted: 3/16/2006 1:27:42 PM EDT
i forgot about that part...
Link Posted: 3/16/2006 1:42:48 PM EDT

Originally Posted By CCW:

Be careful here. The Bushmaster Cat. 2006 V.1 does not list a 1/7 twist.



You have to call and ask for it. It's not listed as a standard item.

Though I think you'd have to look hard to beat that CMMG M4 for an out of the box rifle (other than a Colt which will run you another $200-$400).

(Joseph I'm assuming the CMMG M4 uses a CMT telestock so it's the correct diameter - not a civilian copy?).
Link Posted: 3/16/2006 2:05:59 PM EDT
http://www.pkfirearms.com/store/get_item.aspx?id=683&action=display
Link Posted: 3/16/2006 2:09:22 PM EDT
I don't know. I wasn't going to get that technical but then again, I was trying to keep in mind the fact that like any good arfcommer, he'll be wanting to upgrade to the 'cool' stuff very soon.

I figure even with a permanent A2, he has plenty of options for railed handguards.

It would be a nice idea to have a mil-spec buffer tube from the get-go that way he can enjoy an Vltor later...

Or I might suggest an LMT lower from Denny. I know those have mil-spec tubes.

Oh, if CMMG uses CMT components, the buffer tube should be mil-spec.
Link Posted: 3/16/2006 2:43:56 PM EDT
Buy a Bushmaster A3 M4 with 14.5" barrel and a Phntom 2 flash hider. You'll be very happy.
Link Posted: 3/16/2006 2:52:06 PM EDT
the bad thing about bushies is their CAR handguards...

Link Posted: 3/16/2006 3:00:42 PM EDT
Hey I like the CAR-15 hand guards.
http://www.pkfirearms.com/store/get_item.aspx?id=683&action=display
Bushmastr, 14.5 M4 barrel with a permanently attached closed bottom Phantom, 1/7 twist, RRA Bolt group, forged Charging Handle, M4 hand guards, A3 flat top with A3 carry handle. $595
Link Posted: 3/16/2006 3:18:04 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/16/2006 3:19:30 PM EDT by JoshNC]
Buy a Colt 6920 and 6-8 thirty round USGI mags with Magpull followers. Buy a case or two of good 5.56mm ammo. Learn to use your irons, then replace with an Aimpoint or EoTech with a back up iron sight and possibly a rail front handguard with vertical grip and white light as money permits.
Link Posted: 3/16/2006 5:34:32 PM EDT

Buy a Colt 6920


Good point.

The Colt LE6920 is darn close to the Colt version of the SemiAuto M4, with 16 " Barrel.
The Colt LE6921 is the Colt version of the SemiAuto M4 with the 14.5" barrel.

Both meet all of Mr_'s specification list.

You see the Colt 6920 in Equipment Exchange often.

For the Colt 6921, you will need a SBR approval or a permanent flash hider installed to get up to 16" OAL barrel for non SBR status.
Link Posted: 3/17/2006 11:59:48 AM EDT

Originally Posted By vedubin01:

Originally Posted By MIA_Philly:
i stated in the first post that this will be exposed to the elements especially water be it submerged or heavy rain. it will be fired a great deal and i need it to hold up. im willing to spend from 800-1300 on the gun itself and then after that whatever extras i need. i already have a 6 pin stock in mind and dont mind perm iron sights but i'd prefer flat top that i can mount iron or scopes onto. i have no intensions on bayo's but may or may not be adding flashlight to the config. its going to be a basic rifle as i dont plan on being deployed to a war but still need it to be able to get the job dont and put down a threat.




If you are around the Atlanta Ga area, look up the GA guys around there. They are super cool and have many toys. Toys that they will let you play with if you ask nicely. Some of them run full auto and suppressed. But its always nice to try sometime before you get one for yourself. Ive learned much from these guys and still call them today for advice.

Good luck!



are there still nice people like that alive? wow. i will have to find some of the atlanta members and see if they wouldnt mind at least letting me look at their weapons. thx for the heads up..
Link Posted: 3/17/2006 12:06:38 PM EDT

Originally Posted By JosephR:
Mr._Wilson is right. Everything he listed is what the industry standard is or is going to be for a Civilian M4- which is what you said you wanted. You didn't ask about getting your first AR15. You specifically said M4 and Mr. Wilson gave you 100% relevant info.

Personally, I think this being your first, Mr. Wilson's advise (and now mine) should be all you look at up to this point. The lower made for swapping out calibers is not a simple lower and isn't what you probably should be looking at for a first "M4."

After BCM and their true civilian mil-spec-like vesions, I'd go with CMMG (www.cmmginc.com) and look at a 14.7" barrel with permanently installed A2. The true military M4 has a 14.5" barrel with an A2 but that would be too short for a civilian to own without paying the $200 NFA tax.

CMMG sells very nice complete rifles. COMPLETE is a pretty important word in your case since you will end up getting a full factory warranty and the best customer service by going this route.

cmmginc.secure-mall.com/shop/images/531.jpg


New production CMMG 14.7” M4 Carbine w/A2. Features include mil-spec fire control group and take-down pins, standard M4 profile barrel, chrome lined 5.56mm chamber and bore, 1/7 twist, parkerizing under “F” marked forged front sight base, forged upper and lower receiver, M4 feed ramps, M4 handguard caps, oversized M4 handguards and 6 position ribbed reinforced stock. All barrels are magnetic particle tested and all uppers have been factory head spaced and test fired. Included with weapon are hard case, cleaning kit, sling 2-30rd mags, manual and lifetime warranty.


$1,075.95

OR

A Bushmaster 14.5" with permanently attached phantom making it a legal full 16"




this pretty much covers all i was looking for plus the chrome that was suggested by lots of other members and at a good price. i thank you for this info. it seems to be a "ready to shoot" M4 and thats what I was really hopeing for to start out and then add to later after becoming familiar with the core weapon.
Link Posted: 3/17/2006 1:04:44 PM EDT

Originally Posted By bean58:

Originally Posted By MIA_Philly:

Originally Posted By mr_wilson:

Originally Posted By ironsight-boy:
1/7 twist rates only applies for anti-personnel ar's. 1/7 is HORRIBLE for varmint hunting. I use my AR mainly as a bunny gun out to 350 yards and if I had 1/7 twist rate I wouldn't be able to apply it thusly.



Sorry but this information is just plain WRONG.

Mike

ps - he's asking about 14.5" barreled M4s here is-boy not varmint barrels and as noted above you are dead wrong anyway.



i actually havent mentioned a length but i am aware that the longer the better for distance. this isnt going to be in use at 200m so 14.5 is ok if it still gets the job done. im not going to be shooting animals thats for sure. it will get alot of target practice at the range and hopefully i wont have to engage any humans but if i do, i need it to be ready to go. also it will spend a good amount time around/in/under water.



around/in/under water. Sounds like your going to take it swimming and have showers with it :D



lol, not quite. i am going to be spending a good bit of time in waste to chest deep water deep water.
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