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Posted: 3/14/2006 11:17:01 PM EDT
Hey guys,


Over the past couple of months I have read and heard conflicting answers in the past regarding this. Does anyone know what the straight scoop is on this? I know what ATF said in the past about using M16 parts in an AR but I don't know if it has changed. I tried the search feature but nothing comes up.


And the last thing is: what carrier is the 6920 or 6921 supposed to come with from Colt?



Thanks!
Link Posted: 3/14/2006 11:24:44 PM EDT
Read the entire thread.

ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=6&t=147440

In summation, legal as long as you dont have enough parts to make it automatic (having meaning in your possesion, doesnt matter if they are in the rifle).
Link Posted: 3/14/2006 11:30:23 PM EDT
I only buy full auto carriers. Even for my semis.

As far as having the other parts -- that might be illegal but it is not clearly illegal. It is an ATF opinion, not a law (although the courts consider them experts). If you have real M16s you could argue the parts are for those. Now the ATF would counter-argue that just becaue you have a lawfully-registered M16 does not mean you can also have an illegal second one. But no prosecutor would take the case, and if they did and lost, they would lose their precident.

But if I just had a semi AR15 I would never have a complete M16 parts set. Since I own some M16s, I do have extra parts for them and do not intend to ever put them into one of my semis.
Link Posted: 3/15/2006 2:46:06 AM EDT

just becaue you have a lawfully-registered M16 does not mean you can also have an illegal second one......... and do not intend to ever put them into one of my semis.

This topic has been beat to death but...to have a "second one" the parts would have to fit into the reciever and it would need to function as a machine gun. An AR15 reciever and M16 parts does not a machine gun make.
Link Posted: 3/15/2006 4:08:12 AM EDT
The truth is, if someone who knows the difference is breaking down your rifle to check, you've already got bigger problems to worry about. If it is a spare part in your house, same thing.
Link Posted: 3/15/2006 4:52:30 AM EDT
I looked into this after I purchased my Colt 6920 (It has the M16 carrier in it.



Link Posted: 3/15/2006 5:03:44 AM EDT
This thread is definitely worthy of the COVETED FIVE TROLL AWARD!

Link Posted: 3/15/2006 9:29:23 AM EDT

Thanks for your replies. I know this has been discussed from time to time as well. What prompted me to post was out of genuine interest. I inquired about the LE carbine parts as I am thinking about building a clone and I wanted it to be an accurate representation of one. In fact I'm trying to sell a pistol to help finance this.

I should also mention:

1) The search function DID NOT show any info for this. If it had I would not have posted!
2) This topic was being discussed on another board and I wanted to find out the real truth, not just someone's opinion or half truths!

Incidentally,I'm not a TROLL and never have been! I don't care fot trolls either.


Link Posted: 3/15/2006 9:58:34 AM EDT

Originally Posted By CrazyIrishman:
Incidentally,I'm not a TROLL and never have been! I don't care fot trolls either.



OK! Cool! But you still get to keep the Award!
Link Posted: 3/15/2006 1:16:23 PM EDT
M16 parts will not fit in an AR15 reciever. M16 parts are sold by the 100s of thousands at gunshows everywhere. They are 100% legal unless you have an illegal M16 reciever. No one has ever asked to look at one of my rifles or search my house. No need to apologize, it is a pertinant topic. But I don't expect anyone to believe me, so it's best to find out yourself.
Link Posted: 3/15/2006 1:38:25 PM EDT

Originally Posted By KurtVF:
M16 parts will not fit in an AR15 reciever. M16 parts are sold by the 100s of thousands at gunshows everywhere.



If they won't fit in the AR receiver, how come 100s of thousands are sold at gun shows everywhere?

Link Posted: 3/15/2006 1:47:22 PM EDT
Umm... M16 parts except an auto sear WILL fit in an AR-15 reciever. Upper and lower parts are interchangeable. I wonder if you have a registered M16 though and put half and half M16 AR-15 parts if it would be an illegal AR or a legal M16?
Link Posted: 3/15/2006 2:31:27 PM EDT
Mine fits!
Link Posted: 3/15/2006 2:37:40 PM EDT
all black rifles should have m16 carriers just because.
Link Posted: 3/15/2006 2:47:15 PM EDT

Originally Posted By rsilvers:
I only buy full auto carriers. Even for my semis.

As far as having the other parts -- that might be illegal but it is not clearly illegal. It is an ATF opinion, not a law (although the courts consider them experts). If you have real M16s you could argue the parts are for those. Now the ATF would counter-argue that just becaue you have a lawfully-registered M16 does not mean you can also have an illegal second one. But no prosecutor would take the case, and if they did and lost, they would lose their precident.

But if I just had a semi AR15 I would never have a complete M16 parts set. Since I own some M16s, I do have extra parts for them and do not intend to ever put them into one of my semis.



Is there an advantage to the full auto carrier?
Link Posted: 3/15/2006 2:50:25 PM EDT
Yes, it is the correct part Gene Stoner designed, and it is the proper weight. The semi carrier has less mass.
Link Posted: 3/15/2006 3:44:37 PM EDT

Originally Posted By rsilvers:
Yes, it is the correct part Gene Stoner designed, and it is the proper weight. The semi carrier has less mass.



Yup, I agree here....plus I'm getting a M16
Link Posted: 3/15/2006 4:57:45 PM EDT
so what is the verdict then....can your average joe off the street put a colt m16 bolt carrier in there ar?
Link Posted: 3/15/2006 5:02:46 PM EDT
Yes!
Link Posted: 3/15/2006 5:10:52 PM EDT
They can and they should. Never buy a semi carrier. None should even be produced.
Link Posted: 3/15/2006 5:13:53 PM EDT
Was it just me, or did that atf letter say it was wrong and ok, as long as it didn't fire automatically? It seems like they just wrote up something that does not definitively answer the question if you take the letter in whole, but there are different answers if you just take certain parts of what it says.

Oh well, if someone is breaking down my rifle, I guess I'm dead or bleeding out anyway.
Link Posted: 3/15/2006 5:58:36 PM EDT

Originally Posted By GilaMonster:
Was it just me, or did that atf letter say it was wrong and ok, as long as it didn't fire automatically? It seems like they just wrote up something that does not definitively answer the question if you take the letter in whole, but there are different answers if you just take certain parts of what it says.

Oh well, if someone is breaking down my rifle, I guess I'm dead or bleeding out anyway.



Yeah , that's the spirit man ! You can play on my team when the SHTF !
Link Posted: 3/15/2006 6:08:22 PM EDT
The letter said they can't recommend it, because if it fired automatically it would be illegal.

A bolt carrier along won't be automatic. There are certain fire control parts that can be made to fire automatically once they stick in paperclips and rubber bands.
Link Posted: 3/15/2006 7:55:24 PM EDT
so can u put in and entire m16 boly assembly.....ot is the bolt and firing pin the same as on an m16 anyway?
Link Posted: 3/15/2006 8:03:29 PM EDT

Originally Posted By FlamingGlory:
In summation, legal as long as you dont have enough parts to make it automatic (having meaning in your possesion, doesnt matter if they are in the rifle).



One has to love the BATF's "constructive possession" rule. Never mind the fact that the receiver needs another hole and possibly some milling to take install the fire control group. It is sad that they rule just having the parts and the AR-15 makes you constructively own a machine gun and a potential new ten year member of Club Fed.

What next, are the alphabet boys are going to rule that a shoe string makes a machine gun? Oh my bad, I think they already did that.
Link Posted: 3/15/2006 8:07:26 PM EDT
Like having a penis makes you a rapist.
Link Posted: 3/15/2006 8:13:30 PM EDT

Originally Posted By rsilvers:
There are certain fire control parts that can be made to fire automatically once they stick in paperclips and rubber bands.



I could make a crappy lightning link out of paperclips, no M16 parts needed, I bet I could even make it work for a few shots without a SP1 carrier... Does that mean that *every* AR-15 is a MG?
Link Posted: 3/15/2006 8:16:55 PM EDT
It depends. They would have a hard time getting that to stick for me because I have one or more real M16s. So they would have to convince a jury that, even though I had an M16, I was trying to make another with a paper clip. It would seem ridiculous, and I doubt they could get a jury to convict. My lawyer would ask why I would bother to do something so unsafe when I already had one. Now someone who had an AR15, no M16, but lots of M16 parts -- it would be easier to make it look like they wanted an M16 and planned to make one.
Link Posted: 3/15/2006 8:23:05 PM EDT

Originally Posted By rsilvers:
It depends. They would have a hard time getting that to stick for me because I have one or more real M16s. So they would have to convince a jury that, even though I had an M16, I was trying to make another with a paper clip. It would seem ridiculous, and I doubt they could get a jury to convict. My lawyer would ask why I would bother to do something so unsafe when I already had one. Now someone who had an AR15, no M16, but lots of M16 parts -- it would be easier to make it look like they wanted an M16 and planned to make one.



What I meant was to point out how silly it is that they can tinker with your gun and make it full auto with paper clips... They could grab any AR-15 owner, take their bone-stock AR-15 to The Lab, make a lightning link out of paper clips and then show the jury a video of your stock AR-15 fresh from the factory firing a burst...

I'm not argueing with your statement that they do it, I'm just saying that it's mindboggling that they can pull stunts like that and get away with it. Hence --->
Link Posted: 3/16/2006 4:56:51 AM EDT

Originally Posted By markm:

Originally Posted By KurtVF:
M16 parts will not fit in an AR15 reciever. M16 parts are sold by the 100s of thousands at gunshows everywhere.



If they won't fit in the AR receiver, how come 100s of thousands are sold at gun shows everywhere?




Good point. Let's put it this way: not all the parts will fit, certainly not enough parts to make a machine gun. On a blue label Colt, pretty much none of the parts will fit The most crucial part, the auto sear will not fit into any AR. So there
Link Posted: 3/16/2006 4:59:59 AM EDT
Well they have been known to claim that if you can make them fit in less than 8 hours of time, then it is 'readily convertable.' Of course that is BS, cause no machinist needs to spend more than 2 hours doing a conversion.
Link Posted: 3/16/2006 6:09:09 AM EDT
no automatic fire = no machine gun = legal
Link Posted: 3/16/2006 6:43:52 AM EDT
And if you don't want to spend the extra cash on a new carrier and key(for example I bought a chromed carrier and bolt assy b/c Utah's climate does not like wet guns) then you can always slap a tungsten weight in the back. Sure its unorthodox but, according to the bible, if there weren't unorthodox people out there then we'd all be Jewish; hey.
Link Posted: 3/16/2006 11:05:33 AM EDT

Originally Posted By rsilvers:
Yes, it is the correct part Gene Stoner designed for automatic fire, and it is the proper weight for automatic fire. The semi carrier has less mass, and its weight is just fine for semi automatic fire


I'm pretty sure Colt's engineers took this issue into account.
Link Posted: 3/16/2006 11:09:42 AM EDT
The weight is not a big deal because you can make it up with an H2 buffer. But I would not give Colt's engineers too much credit. They are the ones who brought us the large pins, etc.
Link Posted: 3/16/2006 12:58:26 PM EDT
I second that. I think Colt engineers took the wrong track (or were forced to) sometime in the late 80's or maybe sooner.
Link Posted: 3/16/2006 1:12:54 PM EDT
Even though it might be technically legal, why in the world would you want to risk it? Some over-zealous ATF agent gets a wild hair up his ass, and you've got some M16 parts in the gun. The charge might not stick, but how much are you going to have to pay your lawyer to get your ass out of trouble?

Stick with semi parts for a semi-auto AR, IMHO. No sense borrowing trouble you don't need.
Link Posted: 3/16/2006 1:51:33 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/16/2006 1:54:38 PM EDT by rsilvers]

Originally Posted By billclo:
Even though it might be technically legal, why in the world would you want to risk it? Some over-zealous ATF agent gets a wild hair up his ass, and you've got some M16 parts in the gun. The charge might not stick, but how much are you going to have to pay your lawyer to get your ass out of trouble?

Stick with semi parts for a semi-auto AR, IMHO. No sense borrowing trouble you don't need.



Because it is actually legal. Exercise your full rights or lose them. I will risk it with pleasure. It is my duty.
Link Posted: 3/16/2006 3:24:47 PM EDT

Originally Posted By rsilvers:

Originally Posted By billclo:
Even though it might be technically legal, why in the world would you want to risk it? Some over-zealous ATF agent gets a wild hair up his ass, and you've got some M16 parts in the gun. The charge might not stick, but how much are you going to have to pay your lawyer to get your ass out of trouble?

Stick with semi parts for a semi-auto AR, IMHO. No sense borrowing trouble you don't need.



Because it is actually legal. Exercise your full rights or lose them. I will risk it with pleasure. It is my duty.



There's plenty of things that are actually legal, yet some cop/agent with an attitude can and will fuck with you over it, just because he can. Like open carry in PA. Legal, but you WILL be screwed with constantly. It's nice to know that I can carry openly, but I'll play it smart and conceal.

Have at it dude. Let us know how it turns out.
Link Posted: 3/16/2006 4:41:56 PM EDT
I would be self-concious open carrying.

I will have at it. If anyone wants to come see my full auto bolt carrier in my AR15, PM me and make an appointment and I will show it.
Link Posted: 3/17/2006 9:58:32 AM EDT
FWIW, just pulled the carrier out of a new on the rack Bushie. The firing pin was shrouded, with a flat bottom on the carrier. The rear of the carrier was full circle and 1"-1.5" thick. It surely looked like an auto carrier. There was no wall within the receiver where the autosear would go, but of course there was no cross hole.
I DID see a black helicopter flying over the gunshop as I was leaving....
But I have stopped worrying about the carrier in my rifle.
Moon
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