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Posted: 3/9/2006 8:46:14 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/9/2006 8:51:58 PM EDT by jwise]
Ok, I'm getting sick of KISS rifles getting praised like they walk on water and can kill evildoers without even leaving the gunsafe. For crying out loud...

If you want to look at an excellent weapon platform that (IMHO) is a wonderfully USEFUL rifle, yet minimizes complications while maximizing reliability, look at the SLR15 from Defensive Edge.



I mean, THIS rifle has it going ON! It incorporates your precious A1 upper with new enhanced feautres that add to the reliability AND useability. Does your Colt SP1 or whatever you think is "simple" enough to be considered "KISS" have an enhanced extractor? You know, the piece MOST LIKELY TO FAIL on an AR-15?

Spend some time on the Defensive Edge's website reading all about their philosophy in designing this rifle, or read the article in this month's SWAT magazine, and then let's talk about KISS.

I'm LEO, so your KISS rifle wouldn't even stand a chance at getting into my squad car. No light, no low-light sight (tritium or red dot), no WAY! I operate mostly in darkness, so those features aren't "liabilities" on my rifle, they are necessities.

ETA: Even the Defensive Edge understands that lights and optics have their place on a Utility rifle. Here ya go!



I think all those KISS threads should just start being honest with themselves and call their rifles "retro." Seriously, KISS when talking about AR-15s is just ridiculous.
Link Posted: 3/9/2006 8:47:29 PM EDT
What is an "enhanced extractor"?
Link Posted: 3/9/2006 8:53:01 PM EDT

Originally Posted By STG77:
What is an "enhanced extractor"?



Read about their enhanced extraction system HERE
Link Posted: 3/9/2006 8:55:15 PM EDT
What does KISS stand for anyway?
Link Posted: 3/9/2006 8:56:21 PM EDT
Link Posted: 3/9/2006 8:56:54 PM EDT

Originally Posted By rogue007:
What does KISS stand for anyway?



Keep It Simple, Stupid
Link Posted: 3/9/2006 8:57:59 PM EDT
Link Posted: 3/9/2006 8:59:16 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Boom:
And what the hell is up with that big ass trigger guard? I live in Florida, last time it snowed here was 1986.





Link Posted: 3/9/2006 9:00:15 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Boom:
And what the hell is up with that big ass trigger guard? I live in Florida, last time it snowed here was 1986.





What if an africanized honey-bee stings your trigger finger, and it swells up? (the finger, not the bee)

Be prepared, man !!!


Link Posted: 3/9/2006 9:01:02 PM EDT
I'm a little lost as to the point the first post is trying to make. KISS good? KISS bad? I like sully's rifles. Extremely well thought out for LE use.
Link Posted: 3/9/2006 9:18:17 PM EDT

Originally Posted By ViperEH:
I'm a little lost as to the point the first post is trying to make. KISS good? KISS bad? I like sully's rifles. Extremely well thought out for LE use.



My point was simply to vent my frustration over the glorification of the KISS principle that has become idolized by some. I mean, it means "Keep It Simple Stupid", because complexity fails.

Ok, I'll buy that. I have stock triggers in almost all my rifles, except for a RRA 2-stage in one. The RRA 2-stage is non-adjustable and ULTRA reliable. The worst thing I've ever heard happening with one, is that it over time becomes a single-stage. Unlike my Bushmaster adjustable match trigger that QUIT WORKING! That was an example of how I failed to keep it simple, and it failed me.

However, I am getting the feeling from some that if you put ANY aftermarket items on your rifle, it inherently makes it non-KISS, and therefore not worthy of TRUE utility (killing zombies?) I guess I just get mad because my belief is that "KISS" is a motto for soldiers, and what is being offered up as KISS is inferior to true FIGHTING rifles. From now on, I will start using the term "Fighting Rifle" when I speak of simple, yet effective rifles.

KISS rifle = retro (nothing bad about retro, but don't try and tell me it's somehow superior)
Fighting Rifle = Simple, yet effective in giving the user an edge in a gunfight (ultra reliable)
Link Posted: 3/9/2006 9:35:34 PM EDT
Those have to be the most expensive DPMS rifles on the planet.

Link Posted: 3/9/2006 9:40:42 PM EDT
Each his own.. I like something simple that shoots REALLY fast.
Link Posted: 3/9/2006 9:47:40 PM EDT

Originally Posted By ian187:
Those have to be the most expensive DPMS rifles on the planet.




I think their recievers are made by Superior arms, but you do have a point on the C7 style upper.
Link Posted: 3/9/2006 9:53:18 PM EDT

Originally Posted By jwise:

Originally Posted By STG77:
What is an "enhanced extractor"?



Read about their enhanced extraction system HERE




So they have a nickel-plated or chrome-plated (the website can't decide) standard extractor, an extra power extractor spring (looks like Wolff to me), an o-ring, and a McFarland gas ring.

I thought it was going to be something ground-breaking.
Link Posted: 3/9/2006 10:07:23 PM EDT

Originally Posted By MudBug:

Originally Posted By ian187:
Those have to be the most expensive DPMS rifles on the planet.




I think their recievers are made by Superior arms, but you do have a point on the C7 style upper.



DE is in MN, simply looking at a US map will tell you where every part of that rifle comes from.

You could buy a name brand rifle with known quality for less than an SLR15.


Link Posted: 3/9/2006 10:12:01 PM EDT
Link Posted: 3/9/2006 10:14:05 PM EDT
Link Posted: 3/9/2006 10:27:54 PM EDT

Originally Posted By ian187:

Originally Posted By MudBug:

Originally Posted By ian187:
Those have to be the most expensive DPMS rifles on the planet.




I think their receivers are made by Superior arms, but you do have a point on the C7 style upper.



DE is in MN, simply looking at a US map will tell you where every part of that rifle comes from.

You could buy a name brand rifle with known quality for less than an SLR15.







All I can say is that in a recent thread at GOTX about an SLR15 that got blown up by some Ultra max ammo, Sully was discussing how well the Superior Arms receivers had contained the blast.

Also, I bought a Sully stock that was on back order due to DE waiting for a batch of buffer tubes coming from Superior Arms.

I don't buy complete rifles from anybody, I build my own. I also am not here to cheerlead for the SLR line of rifles. I was just throwing out some info.
Link Posted: 3/9/2006 10:30:04 PM EDT
Use what you need.
If you need KISS - use kiss
If you need uber-tactical - use that
If you need somewhere in the middle - do that.
Link Posted: 3/9/2006 10:40:33 PM EDT

Originally Posted By MudBug:

Originally Posted By ian187:

Originally Posted By MudBug:

Originally Posted By ian187:
Those have to be the most expensive DPMS rifles on the planet.




I think their receivers are made by Superior arms, but you do have a point on the C7 style upper.



DE is in MN, simply looking at a US map will tell you where every part of that rifle comes from.

You could buy a name brand rifle with known quality for less than an SLR15.







All I can say is that in a recent thread at GOTX about an SLR15 that got blown up by some Ultra max ammo, Sully was discussing how well the Superior Arms receivers had contained the blast.

Also, I bought a Sully stock that was on back order due to DE waiting for a batch of buffer tubes coming from Superior Arms.

I don't buy complete rifles from anybody, I build my own. I also am not here to cheerlead for the SLR line of rifles. I was just throwing out some info.



You are right.

Link Posted: 3/9/2006 11:12:03 PM EDT
Link Posted: 3/10/2006 4:31:05 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/10/2006 4:52:30 AM EDT by Hk_Kommando]

Originally Posted By jwise:

Originally Posted By STG77:
What is an "enhanced extractor"?



Read about their enhanced extraction system HERE




So is the extractor chrome plated or nickel plated? The link says one, then the other....HUH?

I think the application will dictate the loadout of the weapon.

If you're only killing "paper people"...... you don't NEED an ACOG, SIR, tactical sling, Surefire foregrip, etc.

However, if you're an LEO, or Military, and your life and those of others depends on your firearms functionality and ability to be used in a particular situation, those practical-tactical items may then become necessary.

The real deciding factor is personal preference. You may be a professional, who has the option to have particular upgrades on your rifle, but you're "old school", and think that iron sights work just as good, or better than the modern stuff us "young whipper-snappers" are using



Link Posted: 3/10/2006 4:53:43 AM EDT

Originally Posted By DK-Prof:

Originally Posted By rogue007:
What does KISS stand for anyway?



Keep It Simple, Stupid



Close but at ARFCom is means

Keep It Semi-Simple
Link Posted: 3/10/2006 5:01:33 AM EDT
Yall don't understand the first rule of BRD

YOU HAVE TO HAVE ONE OF EACH.
Link Posted: 3/10/2006 5:02:25 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/10/2006 5:06:24 AM EDT by Blanco_Diablo]
So tell me...How'd our guys get by in the jungles of Vietnam, the desert in Iraq in 1991, Mogadishu in Somolia in 1993 etc. before we had rail systems and EOTechs and TangoDown forward grips with their M16A1s and M16A2s? Sure it's nice to have all those things but it's not like it's NEEDED. You're acting like a KISS rifle is stupid and should be melted down.

ETA: I'm not saying I'm against all the accessories and such, (I even plan on building a 14.5" M4 with an Aimpoint M2, MI rail system, TangoDown vert. grip, and Surefire G2 or some other light very soon. Gonna be getting the lower in about 2 weeks and then start on the tax stamp to SB4 it) I'm just saying that it's not necessarily needed. You're saying that you need it on your rifle or your rifle is a piece of crap.
Link Posted: 3/10/2006 5:03:36 AM EDT
Don't advertisements belong in the EE?
Link Posted: 3/10/2006 5:56:26 AM EDT

Originally Posted By jwise:
Ok, I'm getting sick of KISS rifles getting praised like they walk on water and can kill evildoers without even leaving the gunsafe. For crying out loud...

If you want to look at an excellent weapon platform that (IMHO) is a wonderfully USEFUL rifle, yet minimizes complications while maximizing reliability, look at the SLR15 from Defensive Edge.

www.slr15.com/homepageimage2.jpg

I mean, THIS rifle has it going ON! It incorporates your precious A1 upper with new enhanced feautres that add to the reliability AND useability. Does your Colt SP1 or whatever you think is "simple" enough to be considered "KISS" have an enhanced extractor? You know, the piece MOST LIKELY TO FAIL on an AR-15?

Spend some time on the Defensive Edge's website reading all about their philosophy in designing this rifle, or read the article in this month's SWAT magazine, and then let's talk about KISS.

I'm LEO, so your KISS rifle wouldn't even stand a chance at getting into my squad car. No light, no low-light sight (tritium or red dot), no WAY! I operate mostly in darkness, so those features aren't "liabilities" on my rifle, they are necessities.

ETA: Even the Defensive Edge understands that lights and optics have their place on a Utility rifle. Here ya go!

www.slr15.com/commanderquadsmall.jpg

I think all those KISS threads should just start being honest with themselves and call their rifles "retro." Seriously, KISS when talking about AR-15s is just ridiculous.



WTF are you babbling about
Link Posted: 3/10/2006 5:57:12 AM EDT
I was always told by a hockey coach that it meant Keep It Simple Shithead.

People use the AR that matches their needs. That's why you don't see Marines in Iraq carrying around Competition AR's. If the type of rifle you presented is what meets your needs then that is great. But that doesn't mean that you have to knock on other AR's because they aren't what you like.
Link Posted: 3/10/2006 6:02:27 AM EDT

Originally Posted By MudBug:

Originally Posted By ian187:
Those have to be the most expensive DPMS rifles on the planet.




I think their recievers are made by Superior arms, but you do have a point on the C7 style upper.


Hmm Bushmaster and Colt both offer the same upper - I guess they are DPMS rifles too?

However I don't know of any manufacture that has setup the upper for a left handed charging handle (only Sully).

Also you can get the above rifle in a flattop configuration with a detachable (with an allen wrench) A1 style carry handle. So when you do get older you can switch to the optic of your choice.
Link Posted: 3/10/2006 6:06:25 AM EDT

Originally Posted By jwise:
I guess I just get mad because my belief is that "KISS" is a motto for soldiers, and what is being offered up as KISS is inferior to true FIGHTING rifles. From now on, I will start using the term "Fighting Rifle" when I speak of simple, yet effective rifles.



What the hell is this suppossed to mean?
Link Posted: 3/10/2006 6:45:36 AM EDT

Originally Posted By jwise:
My point was simply to vent my frustration over the glorification of the KISS principle that has become idolized by some. I mean, it means "Keep It Simple Stupid", because complexity fails.



Dude! Chill! To each his own .... don't get all riled up over it!
Link Posted: 3/10/2006 6:47:31 AM EDT
You should have swallowed the blue pill
Link Posted: 3/10/2006 6:59:27 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Forest:

Originally Posted By MudBug:

Originally Posted By ian187:
Those have to be the most expensive DPMS rifles on the planet.




I think their recievers are made by Superior arms, but you do have a point on the C7 style upper.


Hmm Bushmaster and Colt both offer the same upper - I guess they are DPMS rifles too?

However I don't know of any manufacture that has setup the upper for a left handed charging handle (only Sully).

Also you can get the above rifle in a flattop configuration with a detachable (with an allen wrench) A1 style carry handle. So when you do get older you can switch to the optic of your choice.



Lets see, the parts of the rifle are bought from Superior and DPMS...who is the manufacturer and how much could you buy the same thing for somewhere else?

Link Posted: 3/10/2006 7:12:10 AM EDT

Originally Posted By STG77:

Originally Posted By jwise:

Originally Posted By STG77:
What is an "enhanced extractor"?



Read about their enhanced extraction system HERE




So they have a nickel-plated or chrome-plated (the website can't decide) standard extractor, an extra power extractor spring (looks like Wolff to me), an o-ring, and a McFarland gas ring.

I thought it was going to be something ground-breaking.



It's not ground-breaking, but it doesn't use all stock parts circa 1970 either (like some here believe to be the criteria for a KISS rifle.)

I'm not selling the Sully, just pointing it out as a commercial concept rifle intended for fighting, not just "keeping it simple for the sake of keeping it simple." I'm just trying to point out that SOME mods ARE improvements to the reliability of the weapon.
Link Posted: 3/10/2006 7:15:11 AM EDT

Originally Posted By eye_spy:

Originally Posted By jwise:
My point was simply to vent my frustration over the glorification of the KISS principle that has become idolized by some. I mean, it means "Keep It Simple Stupid", because complexity fails.



Dude! Chill! To each his own .... don't get all riled up over it!



I admit to being already in an irritable mood last night, and then after reading a thread about KISS that pissed me off, I had to rant. I should have warned, but I thought the thread title was conspicuous enough for all.

I'll go relax.
Link Posted: 3/10/2006 7:21:25 AM EDT

Originally Posted By in_burrito:
Don't advertisements belong in the EE?

+1. Sounds like a sales pitch to me also
Link Posted: 3/10/2006 7:22:13 AM EDT

Originally Posted By thedoctors308:
Use what you need.
If you need KISS - use kiss
If you need uber-tactical - use that
If you need somewhere in the middle - do that.


This, IMHO is the correct answer to the KISS question.
Link Posted: 3/10/2006 7:26:48 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Blanco_Diablo:
So tell me...How'd our guys get by in the jungles of Vietnam

You're right. They didn't have body armor or Humvees either. Those things must be breaking the KISS principle, and therefore are inferior.

You're acting like a KISS rifle is stupid and should be melted down.

No, just don't act like an old SP1 is somehow inherently better than an M4 just because it's older. Speak to the components.


Link Posted: 3/10/2006 7:29:48 AM EDT

Originally Posted By FlyingFive0:

Originally Posted By in_burrito:
Don't advertisements belong in the EE?

+1. Sounds like a sales pitch to me also



I don't have one, I don't have one to sell, and I'm not a dealer, I'm just using it as an illustration. There are plenty of people who have similar setups, but none I could point to readily. I'm just trying to show a rifle that incorporates some of the old systems that are truly simpler and robust, but ALSO uses newer technology/advancements that reinforce the reliability of the weapon platform.
Link Posted: 3/10/2006 7:54:58 AM EDT
"KISS when talking about AR-15s is just ridiculous."
Link Posted: 3/10/2006 8:22:00 AM EDT
I thought the whole point of purchasing an AR type of weapon was to hang a bunch of expensive shit off of it.
Link Posted: 3/10/2006 8:23:13 AM EDT
tag for more nickel plated extractor jokes
Link Posted: 3/10/2006 8:35:30 AM EDT

Originally Posted By jwise:

Originally Posted By STG77:
What is an "enhanced extractor"?



Read about their enhanced extraction system HERE



Whoopty doo!

They took a McFarland gas ring, chrome plated the extractor (does nothing) installed the M4 spring and buffer, and threw on a Dring/Oring.

Big deal. Off the shelf components. Nothing "revolutionary". Just threw a bunch of crap at it and called it cool.

They chose a YHM tube in your second picture.... which I would NOT recommend for use with a verticle foregrip for real duty use.
Link Posted: 3/10/2006 8:43:40 AM EDT
Who the hell shit in your Wheaties?

You bitch about KISS rifles then you post a picture of one? KISS doesn't mean "Nothing that Stoner didn't personally design" It means keep it simple (stupid). If you need a light, then mount a light. If your AR won't extract reliably, certainly fix it\upgrade it so that it will. By all means, mount and use what ever you need to get the job done. The point is, keep it as simply as you can while still making it effective for the role it is intended for.

The reason why, IMO, some people (myself included) try to promote the "KISS" concept is there are too many people around here that install way too much crap on their AR's that they have no use or justification for. I guess they do it because they think it looks cool or it will make them more "tactical"?

How many 14.5" or 16" M4gery type carbines are posted here every week with free float rails, VFG, lights and in some cases lasers when the owner doesn't do anything with it other then shoot some Wolf through it off of a bench every few months? That's just silly IMO but what ever floats your boat.

Too each there own but I am glad we have the choices we do.
Link Posted: 3/10/2006 11:03:46 AM EDT

Originally Posted By cgv69:
Who the hell shit in your Wheaties?

You bitch about KISS rifles then you post a picture of one? KISS doesn't mean "Nothing that Stoner didn't personally design" It means keep it simple (stupid). If you need a light, then mount a light. If your AR won't extract reliably, certainly fix it\upgrade it so that it will. By all means, mount and use what ever you need to get the job done. The point is, keep it as simply as you can while still making it effective for the role it is intended for.

The reason why, IMO, some people (myself included) try to promote the "KISS" concept is there are too many people around here that install way too much crap on their AR's that they have no use or justification for. I guess they do it because they think it looks cool or it will make them more "tactical"?

How many 14.5" or 16" M4gery type carbines are posted here every week with free float rails, VFG, lights and in some cases lasers when the owner doesn't do anything with it other then shoot some Wolf through it off of a bench every few months? That's just silly IMO but what ever floats your boat.

Too each there own but I am glad we have the choices we do.



I hate to break it to you, but we agree! My thread was a pissed off response to THIS THREAD!

Paladin goes off proclaiming that ANY addition, functional or not, is a divergence from the KISS principle. I guess I should have noted this in the original post, but I thought you guys would have put two and two together.

I felt like he was stealing the term "KISS" to ONLY mean "retro." So I am abandoning the term, and now using "Fighting Carbine."
Link Posted: 3/11/2006 1:11:13 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Blanco_Diablo:
So tell me...How'd our guys get by in the jungles of Vietnam, the desert in Iraq in 1991, Mogadishu in Somolia in 1993 etc. before we had rail systems and EOTechs and TangoDown forward grips with their M16A1s and M16A2s? Sure it's nice to have all those things but it's not like it's NEEDED. You're acting like a KISS rifle is stupid and should be melted down.

ETA: I'm not saying I'm against all the accessories and such, (I even plan on building a 14.5" M4 with an Aimpoint M2, MI rail system, TangoDown vert. grip, and Surefire G2 or some other light very soon. Gonna be getting the lower in about 2 weeks and then start on the tax stamp to SB4 it) I'm just saying that it's not necessarily needed. You're saying that you need it on your rifle or your rifle is a piece of crap.



Times change, and things are improved. Or we could just ask the question, of how did our guys get by in the Revolutionary War, and the War of 1812?

Why not use whatever is available to increase your odds? Sure an Aimpoint or Eotech isn't needed (unless you're dead because of that split second longer it took to use the front sight post), but it increases the odds of being the one to walk away. I guess a light isn't needed, well unless you are clearing buildings at night, or in a power outage.
Link Posted: 3/11/2006 1:20:50 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/11/2006 1:21:08 AM EDT by Rakky]
One shouldn't confuse KISS with retro.

I consider my AR M4gery KISS, even though she's got an EOTech, Gladius, FF rail, VFG, etc, but it's simple. BUIS makes it reliable if the EO fails. I just don't have a bipod, anti roll pins, trigger upgrade, etc. KISS to me is just having what you need, nothing more.

Retro is like driving a 60's muscle car. Cool as hell, but the $$$ you're spending on gas just ain't practical. Why not go with what technology has given us and reap the benefits? Not dissing the retro stuff, but I don't see anyone bitching about remote controls for their TV's!!!
Link Posted: 3/11/2006 1:29:26 AM EDT
KISS=====AK + 10000000000000000000000000000
Link Posted: 3/11/2006 1:54:27 AM EDT
Does anybody in the above posts have credentials like Sully's? It's good to hear weapons evaluations from people who have been in harms way. Thanks.
Link Posted: 3/11/2006 7:43:54 AM EDT
IMHO, KISS doesn't equal retro, but the first version M16 is about as KISS as you can get, with A1 sights, fixed stock, no forward assist, etc. It was the basis for everything else. But that's not to say KISS is limited to the M16. There were improvements to the M16 that were beneficial, without harming effectiveness (like chrome bores). And I think that KISS means you have these "upgrades" that improve function without decreasing utility or reliabilty

So what isn't KISS? I think a good example is the A2 sight on a carbine or SBR. A lot of people say the A2 sights are KISS, even though they will never shoot out past 300 meters, and the sights won't be moved other than being zeroed. The easily adjustable sights might be needed on a NM competition rifle, but who would use a carbine for long distance target shooting? I could post the pictures of the AR with 30 lights and a SAK or the one with Eothingy and backup Eothingy, and I'm sure that somebody will come along and say they are KISS because they have some specific requirement for all of that stuff.
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