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Posted: 3/9/2006 8:22:36 PM EDT
What's the benefits of this? Instead of using only the RDS?

Like this for example.

Link Posted: 3/9/2006 8:34:57 PM EDT
You don't look through it like that, you look just over the top of the irons and through the optic and keep both eyes open and focussed on the target. Doing this the irons and the outside of the optic will be blurred out of focus and you'll basically just see the target with a red dot over it.

By keeping the optics on the same plane you have the same cheekweld for both of them and if the batteries run out or you forgot to turn it on you can instantly switch to the irons without taking time to remove the optic. You also don't have to spend time flipping up or installing a rear sight.
Link Posted: 3/9/2006 8:36:14 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/9/2006 8:37:44 PM EDT by Stickman]
Link Posted: 3/9/2006 8:41:54 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Stickman:
You know if you sights have moved/ lost zero.

You know that if your optic goes down, you can continue to fight.

Your cut carry handle is serving a noble purpose.



ETA- Much like anything else, its a matter of training. Once you are used to running a platform like this, its not something you think twice about.



Oh ok. So in that pic above, you're only focusing on the red dot?

But in case the batteries die, you can still look straight through the RDS and use the iron sights?

Simple enough :) Just looked like both were being used at once.
Link Posted: 3/9/2006 8:50:03 PM EDT

Originally Posted By M4A1OwnsYou:
Oh ok. So in that pic above, you're only focusing on the red dot?

Not on the dot, on the target. The dot will seem to float over the target.
Link Posted: 3/9/2006 8:55:30 PM EDT
This is what you're seeing when only looking through the reddot.



If the battery dies, you drop your head down and use the irons.

WIZZO
Link Posted: 3/9/2006 9:05:40 PM EDT
It's hard to explain how to use them, but it's not hard to do. I run my Eotech co-witnessed (same plane), but when I'm shooting, all I see is the red dot on the target. I don't have my cheek all the way down like when I use my irons, so the irons are both "under" my line of sight AND out of focus. If I need to take a longer shot, or a more precise one, I get down on the stock and can still use the fine 1moa dot of the Eotech through the sights and slow down the shot.

For those who mount their red dots slightly higher than their irons, they can't get a good cheek weld and still use their red dot. They will then need to use their irons (hopefully it's not a low-light situation.) I understand their desire to use there red dots without the irons getting in the way, but I think if they set up their sights like mine (same plane) and USED them, they would see it works quite well.

Of course, the Eotech is accurate anywhere in the display box, not JUST in the center.

Here's one of my setups:

Link Posted: 3/9/2006 9:23:52 PM EDT

Originally Posted By jwise:
For those who mount their red dots slightly higher than their irons, they can't get a good cheek weld and still use their red dot. They will then need to use their irons (hopefully it's not a low-light situation.)

1. Slightly higher shouldn't be more than 1/8" to 1/4" and doesn't cause a problem with cheek weld.

2. Slightly higher is still low enough that the irons are still visible through the optic. The shooter can still get down on the stock for a tight checkweld just like with your setup. The only difference is that when they are using the optic over the irons the irons are that little farther out of the line of sight.
Link Posted: 3/9/2006 9:34:23 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Hoplophile:

Originally Posted By jwise:
For those who mount their red dots slightly higher than their irons, they can't get a good cheek weld and still use their red dot. They will then need to use their irons (hopefully it's not a low-light situation.)

1. Slightly higher shouldn't be more than 1/8" to 1/4" and doesn't cause a problem with cheek weld.

2. Slightly higher is still low enough that the irons are still visible through the optic. The shooter can still get down on the stock for a tight checkweld just like with your setup. The only difference is that when they are using the optic over the irons the irons are that little farther out of the line of sight.



Yeah, I understand, but repeatable cheek weld is critical for accuracy on an AR-15. That "little bit" (1/8" or 1/4") makes you re-adjust, even if it's just lowering your head all the way down to the stock. I just don't see the advantage of raising your red dot.

I hate how the term "co-witnessed" has been taken to mean "you can still use your iron sights in the bottom 1/3 of the glass." That should be called "still being able to see your irons." Co-witnessing is just that: "co" = "together." They should be viewed together, like the picture in the original post.
Link Posted: 3/10/2006 6:26:14 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/10/2006 6:27:17 AM EDT by Hoplophile]

Originally Posted By jwise:
Originally Posted By Hoplophile:
Yeah, I understand, but repeatable cheek weld is critical for accuracy on an AR-15. That "little bit" (1/8" or 1/4") makes you re-adjust, even if it's just lowering your head all the way down to the stock. I just don't see the advantage of raising your red dot.

I hate how the term "co-witnessed" has been taken to mean "you can still use your iron sights in the bottom 1/3 of the glass." That should be called "still being able to see your irons." Co-witnessing is just that: "co" = "together." They should be viewed together, like the picture in the original post.


Red dots are made for speed, not match grade accuracy so if you're worried about having a group open up a little then you're using the wrong tool for the job. And if you're using the optic by looking through the irons then you're giving up a lot of the speed advantage of the optic.

With an Aimpoint or EOtech it doesn't matter where the dot appears to be within the optic, if the dot is over the target the you're going to hit the target so there is no difference between having the dot centered when looking through the irons vs having the dot near the bottom of the optic when looking through the irons. The dot still appears to be over the target and you're still going to have the same POI.

Link Posted: 3/10/2006 6:33:06 AM EDT

Originally Posted By M4A1OwnsYou:
What's the benefits of this? Instead of using only the RDS?



No benefit at all when shooting, either use the irons or use the optic.

However it's a quick way to check to see if your optic has been knocked off zero, or when installing a new optic to get it quickly on paper.

Also having the ability to do that means should the optic die unexpectedly, you can quickly switch to irons.
Link Posted: 3/10/2006 6:38:57 AM EDT

Originally Posted By jwise:

Originally Posted By Hoplophile:

Originally Posted By jwise:
For those who mount their red dots slightly higher than their irons, they can't get a good cheek weld and still use their red dot. They will then need to use their irons (hopefully it's not a low-light situation.)

1. Slightly higher shouldn't be more than 1/8" to 1/4" and doesn't cause a problem with cheek weld.

2. Slightly higher is still low enough that the irons are still visible through the optic. The shooter can still get down on the stock for a tight checkweld just like with your setup. The only difference is that when they are using the optic over the irons the irons are that little farther out of the line of sight.



Yeah, I understand, but repeatable cheek weld is critical for accuracy on an AR-15. That "little bit" (1/8" or 1/4") makes you re-adjust, even if it's just lowering your head all the way down to the stock. I just don't see the advantage of raising your red dot.




Ok let's get real here for a second.
1) Using a red-dot means you are looking for speed NOT accuracy (hard to get bench-rest type groups with the 4moa dot)

2) Any perceived loss in accuracy is going to be miniscule at best as the optics are parallac free.

3) What you gain by raising the optic slightly is a clearer field of view and (IMHO) a better heads-up stance that improves peripheral vision.

Concern for precision repeat cheek weld is for iron sights, when the name of the game is shooting very small groups. Red-dots are used when the name of the game is speed (either whacking tangos or during a 3-gun match) and the targets are compartively larger.
Link Posted: 3/10/2006 6:53:37 AM EDT
jwise,

I am looking to set up a 16" V-match much like your set up. If you do don't mind could you give me a rundown of the equipment you have in the photo.

Thanks
Link Posted: 3/10/2006 7:00:40 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Forest:

Ok let's get real here for a second.
1) Using a red-dot means you are looking for speed NOT accuracy (hard to get bench-rest type groups with the 4moa dot)




That's why I hate dot sights. I've never felt a significant increase in speed when I've tried them either.
Link Posted: 3/10/2006 7:05:08 AM EDT

Originally Posted By markm:

That's why I hate dot sights. I've never felt a significant increase in speed when I've tried them either.



I've compared using a shot timer. Red-Dots are much faster - look at target - impose dot over target - fire.

Irons run look at target - search for, then FOCUS on, Front sight - impose on target - focus back on front sight - fire.

Chances are if you're not seeing a speed increase (use a shot timer) then you're spending too much time looking at the dot when you don't need to focus on the dot at all.
Link Posted: 3/10/2006 10:49:44 AM EDT
Cheekweld is for losers. I'm gonna have to start practicing that chinweld once I mount my RDS on top of my carry handle
Link Posted: 3/10/2006 11:16:26 AM EDT
I love this site... Learn something new every day. The EOTech I'm running is my first ever red dot sight and I've been using it like a scope, in that I'm focusing on the dot, not the target. I think I'll go burn some rounds focusing on the target this evening. I can definitely see that being faster! Sucks to have great tools and cheat yourself by not knowing how to use them properly!
Link Posted: 3/10/2006 12:16:29 PM EDT
Ouch. If you try to focus on the EOTech reticle, it gets all blurry. You have to focus on the target or it won't be sharp. It's a holographic sight - the reticle, as far as your eyes are concerned, is "out there", not in the optic.
Link Posted: 3/10/2006 1:13:59 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Forest:
Ok let's get real here for a second.
1) Using a red-dot means you are looking for speed NOT accuracy (hard to get bench-rest type groups with the 4moa dot)




Eotechs have a 1moa dot in the middle, that's why I like them.
Link Posted: 3/10/2006 1:29:52 PM EDT

Originally Posted By getty:
jwise,

I am looking to set up a 16" V-match much like your set up. If you do don't mind could you give me a rundown of the equipment you have in the photo.

Thanks



Bushmaster upper/lower with 16" HBAR 1/9 twist barrel
Bushmaster BMAS rear and front flip sights (made by YHM)
6-position M4 stock
Hogue grip
Hogue Free Float forearm (oldie but goodie)
Bushmaster BMAS 3-rail gas block
Eotech 551

It's very accurate.
Link Posted: 3/10/2006 6:05:01 PM EDT
That first pic is mine. I just used that picture as it was the best one out of about 10. I shoot with both eyes open, and my dot co-witnesses right in the middle of the iron sight line. I don't bother looking over the irons because there is no benefit in speed or accuracy for me. I've not once had a problem with the BUIS blocking my view of the red dot.

And as it was stated before, it shows immediatly if the red dot or the iron sight is off. For example, I took my rear BUIS to slap on another upper of mine just so I could shoot it a little. Had to re-zero for the new upper I put it on. Once I was finished with it on the new upper, I put it back on the upper in the pic and adjusted the windage to the dot. Quick and easy and works if I take the RDS off, too.

-X
Link Posted: 3/10/2006 7:58:44 PM EDT
Fixed front sight:

Zero your removable carry handle to the front sight.
Zero your BUIS to the front sight.
Zero your red dot optic to the front sight.

Now if you change from red dot to carry handle or BUIS or non-functioning red dot to BUIS you don't have to fuck around with trying to figure out your cheekweld.

I use the Chuck Santose Improved Battle Sight Zero method.

I also set up the red dot sight so that the red dot is right on top of the front sight post.

If you want to practice both eye open shooting you can cover the front of the red dot sight with something like a piece of paper, or if you have an AimPoint just close the dust cover, then open both eyes and let the sight picture meld from the red dot and the open eye.



Link Posted: 3/10/2006 8:59:21 PM EDT

Originally Posted By boltcatch:
Ouch. If you try to focus on the EOTech reticle, it gets all blurry. You have to focus on the target or it won't be sharp. It's a holographic sight - the reticle, as far as your eyes are concerned, is "out there", not in the optic.



Yeah, it makes perfect sense, and although I was doin' "ok" focusing on the reticle I can already tell it will be even better when focusing on the target. I didn't get to burn any rounds this evening, but will tomorrow. I have played around with it a little though and I'm sure I'll like the EO even better now that I know how to properly use it.

My years and years of scope use had me wanting to focus on the reticle.
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