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Posted: 3/5/2006 5:51:31 PM EDT
When you see Marines fighting you will occasionally see them pull off a string of 10 or so semi-fired shots. When they shoot this though you barely see their muzzle move at all. How do they keep on target so well during that rapid fire or is it not as accurate as I am thinking? Is it just constant practice?
Link Posted: 3/5/2006 6:03:05 PM EDT
ARs don't recoil that much, if you monkey with it you should be able to find the right technique.
Link Posted: 3/5/2006 6:50:54 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/5/2006 6:51:19 PM EDT by XD2311]
Simple - Marines train to shoot

Camp Lejeune is nothing more than one giant shooting range, 9mm - 155mmhug.gif
Link Posted: 3/5/2006 6:55:58 PM EDT
Training. But I find it's much more controllable if you "get up on top" of the rifle. Nose to charging handle, tight in shoulder, elbow down (don't chicken wing).
Link Posted: 3/5/2006 7:10:16 PM EDT

Originally Posted By NoAim:
Training. But I find it's much more controllable if you "get up on top" of the rifle. Nose to charging handle, tight in shoulder, elbow down (don't chicken wing).



Why do I see R. Lee Ermey "chicken winging" on Mail Call? Not saying you're wrong, just curious. Maybe there has been a change in doctrine about this.


TS
Link Posted: 3/5/2006 7:56:29 PM EDT

Originally Posted By TigerStripe:

Originally Posted By NoAim:
Training. But I find it's much more controllable if you "get up on top" of the rifle. Nose to charging handle, tight in shoulder, elbow down (don't chicken wing).



Why do I see R. Lee Ermey "chicken winging" on Mail Call? Not saying you're wrong, just curious. Maybe there has been a change in doctrine about this.


TS



R. Lee probably isn't the end all?

Try it yourself. Chicken Wing, then tuck it in. Where can you control better AND which position puts the most meat between the buttstock and you?
Link Posted: 3/5/2006 8:11:30 PM EDT

Originally Posted By NoAim:

Originally Posted By TigerStripe:

Originally Posted By NoAim:
Training. But I find it's much more controllable if you "get up on top" of the rifle. Nose to charging handle, tight in shoulder, elbow down (don't chicken wing).



Why do I see R. Lee Ermey "chicken winging" on Mail Call? Not saying you're wrong, just curious. Maybe there has been a change in doctrine about this.


TS



R. Lee probably isn't the end all?

Try it yourself. Chicken Wing, then tuck it in. Where can you control better AND which position puts the most meat between the buttstock and you?



HOW DARE YOU SAY TAHT MAGGOT! DROP AND GIVE ME 50!
Link Posted: 3/6/2006 3:00:13 AM EDT

Originally Posted By TigerStripe:
Why do I see R. Lee Ermey "chicken winging" on Mail Call? Not saying you're wrong, just curious. Maybe there has been a change in doctrine about this.




No change in doctrine... he's putting on a TV show, not trying to qualilfy at the range.
Link Posted: 3/6/2006 3:12:17 AM EDT
Just keep adding junk to your weapon until it's too heavy to recoil at all!
Link Posted: 3/6/2006 1:40:13 PM EDT

Originally Posted By markm:
Just keep adding junk to your weapon until it's too heavy to recoil at all!



The ARFCOM way! I've told people that my 20" target rifle seems to recoil like a stock .22LR. Well, it's true. The damn thing now weighs close to 11 pounds!
Link Posted: 3/6/2006 2:52:52 PM EDT
Marines have long gas systems, heavey weapons, full length buffer tubes and vertical grips. Muzzle rise is reduced by each of these things. Also, what seems to the shooter to be a ot of muzzle rise, to an observer is minimal.
Link Posted: 3/6/2006 2:54:23 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Interceptor_Knight:

Originally Posted By TigerStripe:
Why do I see R. Lee Ermey "chicken winging" on Mail Call? Not saying you're wrong, just curious. Maybe there has been a change in doctrine about this.




No change in doctrine... he's putting on a TV show, not trying to qualilfy at the range.



Old school marines were taught to shoot with their body bladed and their elbow up. This makes hits when shooting from the standing position at targets at a distance. Now they square up to the target and tuck the elbows down to control the weapon. It's not as accurate, but it controls recoil and is better for fighting.
Link Posted: 3/6/2006 3:15:59 PM EDT
The ole' Gunny is used to shooting his beloved M14, seems many that started out shooting rifles without pistol grips tend to do the chicken wing thing.
Link Posted: 3/6/2006 3:32:51 PM EDT
Rifles like the M-1 and M-14 generate much more recoil than the M-16\M-4 does. Because of this, Soldiers and Marines who trained on the 30 cal rifles were instructed to create a larger shoulder pocket by holding the elbow out and away from the body. The lack of a pistol grip on the M-1\M-14 also makes it hard to pull down and in on the rifle. In addition, the sights on the M-1\M-14 are closer to the axis of the bore, making a 'high hold' more important to getting a good sight picture. All this helps keep the rifle from sliping off the shoulder during recoil. Competition shooters who still use 30\7.62 caliber rifles still use this stance.


Originally Posted By TigerStripe:
Why do I see R. Lee Ermey "chicken winging" on Mail Call? Not saying you're wrong, just curious. Maybe there has been a change in doctrine about this.


TS

Link Posted: 3/6/2006 4:13:40 PM EDT
When doing rapid fire, with practice your body naturally learns to recoil with the weapon, allowing it to recoil straight back. Then your body naturally rebounds to its original position, sights back on target. When shooting rapid fire, pull the weapon straight back in to your shoulder hard (ghetto grip helps a lot). Never fire faster than you can control. If you practice a lot, speed comes on its own.
Link Posted: 3/6/2006 6:08:15 PM EDT

Originally Posted By NoAim:

Originally Posted By markm:
Just keep adding junk to your weapon until it's too heavy to recoil at all!



The ARFCOM way! I've told people that my 20" target rifle seems to recoil like a stock .22LR. Well, it's true. The damn thing now weighs close to 11 pounds!



That's it? My lead-sled AR HP rifle is pushing 16 lbs.
Link Posted: 3/6/2006 6:27:03 PM EDT
I be damned - I learned something here tonight! Don't 'chicken-wing' the AR! And why!
Link Posted: 3/7/2006 5:21:40 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:
Now they square up to the target



I dunno if it's just a fringe benefit, but squaring up to the target also presents your armored chest to the target while the old way presents the hole in your armor (the hole for your arm).
Link Posted: 3/7/2006 5:37:47 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/7/2006 5:38:47 AM EDT by Duffy]
As far as controlling recoil goes, squaring up against the target seems a more difficult stance. We train like that with shotguns and rifles, many people have a hard time with it. You really have to lean forward and bend your knees, since your shooting side leg is now not behind you to brace against it. That stance requires a shorter stock. On ARs with retractable stock this is a piece of cake, it's a real challenge with shotguns and fixed stocks. Also if your arms aren't very long, this can be somewhat difficult.
Link Posted: 3/7/2006 6:14:07 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Griz:

Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:
Now they square up to the target



I dunno if it's just a fringe benefit, but squaring up to the target also presents your armored chest to the target while the old way presents the hole in your armor (the hole for your arm).



Another difference in "squaring" and "bladed" stances, is that in the bladed stance you present a smaller target on the two way range. The down side, is if you DO take a hit, a single round could get both lungs and the heart, where if "squared" a single round only gets one lung. (Still dead if heart hit). There were advocates of both positions.

Of course that's really an old school dilemma, prior to common useage of body armor. Squaring up is probably overall safer.

On the other hand, my AO as an Armchair Commando is prolly safer yet..



Lonny
Link Posted: 3/7/2006 9:17:48 AM EDT

Originally Posted By NoAim:
R. Lee probably isn't the end all?



Put yourself in timeout for your heresy.
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