Warning

 

Close

Confirm Action

Are you sure you wish to do this?

Confirm Cancel
Member Login
Arrow Left Previous Page
Page / 2
Posted: 2/25/2006 9:44:12 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/25/2006 9:48:48 PM EDT by Variablebinary]
Things are heating up and just about everyone is throwing their hat into the piston arena. As we all know though, not all will survive. We can expect a duopoly at best and the rest will disappear into firearms history.

Here is my prediction: Colt will be number one. Why? Because they are Colt and can carry over their M4 momentum, political ties and industry clout

Number two will be POF. They support their product well, continue to show how versatile their design is, their system is cake to maintain, and you can get spare parts easily. And they deliver their product in a timely fashion and at a reasonable cost. Highest value to cost ratio by far. Probably the best anti-fouling design of all the piston systems due to extensive use of chrome

HK is too expensive and the idea of them adding HK spec parts will drive most of the community away except for the HK die-hards. Niche at best unless they go balls out for the American civilian market, which is unlikely

LW; They won’t have a prayer against Colt or HK, and POF beats them on economy and means to buy spare parts, which is a huge factor to the AR15 community. Their product is also harder to maintain compared to POF

Or will the whole AR15 piston thing be a fad that passes, people will stick with direct gas AR15's, and if they want pistons they will go with XCR, SCAR or 556
Link Posted: 2/25/2006 9:57:00 PM EDT
I love my POF and would not trade it for any other AR at the moment. That being said I hope that they all succeed. Piston Op systems for AR's are the best thing to come around in a long time and will only prove their worth as time goes on.
If I wasnt a POF diehard ,I would be wanting a LW. I like all of the piston designs though.
Link Posted: 2/25/2006 9:58:23 PM EDT
SCAR-L (ARM-L) for me

I'm not going to drop that amount of cash just for a piston upper/rifle/conversion.

I'll go for something else first.

WIZZO
Link Posted: 2/25/2006 10:27:39 PM EDT
I want a 11.5/10.5 to run my silincer on, but I keep hearing POF has problems with silincers, and the LW is impossible to get.........
Link Posted: 2/25/2006 10:32:08 PM EDT
Really don't care who wins, as long as parts are plentiful and cheap.
Link Posted: 2/25/2006 11:14:48 PM EDT

Originally Posted By RustedAce:
I want a 11.5/10.5 to run my silincer on, but I keep hearing POF has problems with silincers, and the LW is impossible to get.........



just two weeks ago here in wyoming, we tested a 10.5 pof upper on a rra leo demo lower with an aac supressor, and it worked great! very little cleanup after as well...
Link Posted: 2/26/2006 3:33:21 AM EDT
I vote for Colt. They have the credibility to prevail in the marketplace.
Link Posted: 2/26/2006 4:45:53 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/26/2006 4:51:14 AM EDT by BravoCompanyUSA]
Link Posted: 2/26/2006 5:17:45 AM EDT
Link Posted: 2/26/2006 5:32:42 AM EDT
What, no choice for ARES?

Link Posted: 2/26/2006 5:35:51 AM EDT

Originally Posted By ChairborneRanger:
I vote for Colt. They have the credibility to prevail in the marketplace.



The one thing I really like about Colt's system is how it's accessed through the front sight. It seems to make it easier to maintin than having to remove the top rail.
Link Posted: 2/26/2006 5:41:26 AM EDT
POF is going to leave everyone in the dust. Their system is by far the best. They just need to get production up. This will happen in time. He's already turned down a HUGE offer from Bushmaster for the rights to produce. That should tell you something. Bill T.
Link Posted: 2/26/2006 6:45:47 AM EDT
My vote would be for POF, easy guy to talk to, know guys that use them and they work great. (I'm a MG shooter).

Colt? Who knows, but probably not anytime soon.

HK - Same thing, but even less likely than Colt.

LW, Shrugs, just don't think so, but I think it's a high quality product.

You left off MGI. I think Mack has a great potential with his removable barrel with coming gas piston. With the changeable mags wells, and belt fed (aka AK feed), I really think, he will end up making the best product.

Just my .02

All that said, I'll stick with my M60.
Link Posted: 2/26/2006 7:02:33 AM EDT
Link Posted: 2/26/2006 7:23:08 AM EDT

Originally Posted By BravoCompanyUSA:
They will all co-exist together. There is no reason all of the designs wouldn't be successful. If anything, the success of one piston system (units/year) will create a ripple affect that increases sales of the competitors. (A high tide raises all boats type of thing) If one of the piston companies listed is not successful, it will probably be because of their business plan and not because of their design.

It is like asking, who is going to win the handgun wars . . . Glock, 1911, Sig, S&W, HK ?
The market is plenty big enough for all of them to compete and be successfull.

(by the way, I predict this thread gets ugly by page 3)


I agree on all points.
Link Posted: 2/26/2006 7:46:11 AM EDT
Link Posted: 2/26/2006 7:54:28 AM EDT
The Colt system looks promising since it’s compatible with both regular handguards and all standard type FF Rail Systems.

No special top rail removable rail system needed!
Link Posted: 2/26/2006 9:17:13 AM EDT
COLT
Link Posted: 2/26/2006 9:18:08 AM EDT
SCAR/ARM +1,
Link Posted: 2/26/2006 10:35:28 AM EDT
Scar Light in green and Scar heavy In Tan, please.

Nathan
Link Posted: 2/26/2006 10:47:37 AM EDT
WAY TOO EARLY TO TELL

If a new upper is adopted by the US military I would think that would wind up being the upper that will become most popular. So far I think the front runners are Colt with the M5, and HK with the 416. But who knows, sometime soon the new MBR competition will start. Who will win? Nobody knows.

Even if a completely new rifle is adopted, I doubt the gas piston uppers will fall away, I dont think there will be just one left. Remember back when there was only the Colt AR-15?
Link Posted: 2/26/2006 10:59:45 AM EDT
I've never shot a piston upper, but I have seen a POF 9 inch barreled upper in action. This was at a two gun match, and he was shooting just as good as anyone else at long range with this short barreled rifle. The thing seemed very reliable, didn't have a single malfunction that I could see. We were under a roof like covering, and unlike most of the 14.5 inch M4s, this thing didn't have a cuncussion from under the roof because it had a Noveske flash hider. I learned that day that the POF was a good upper, and that the Noveske works just as good as people say on this site.

Just a thought from a guy who knows nothing of modern day "gizmos"
Link Posted: 2/26/2006 11:04:37 AM EDT
My high priority this year is to buy a SIGARMS 556. I will wait for the gas piston uppers to be reviewed and on the market for a while before I buy one; however, my preference is for the Colt.
Link Posted: 2/26/2006 11:05:08 AM EDT

Originally Posted By RustedAce:
I want a 11.5/10.5 to run my silincer on, but I keep hearing POF has problems with silincers, and the LW is impossible to get.........



The LE1033 - a 11.5" version of the LE1020 - would be a great choice

Only problem is the wait. But the wait will be similar to other options and the payoff bigger
Link Posted: 2/26/2006 11:07:02 AM EDT
I think I'm going to attend SHOT in Orlando next year, and one of my primary goals will be to get a look at each of the different piston uppers and what makes them tick. Then and only then will I make a decision on which one I like best.
Link Posted: 2/26/2006 11:16:39 AM EDT
I like my AR's the way they are!
Link Posted: 2/26/2006 11:41:21 AM EDT
The Consumer.
Link Posted: 2/26/2006 12:08:57 PM EDT
Colt, because they can keep the weight down and because .MIL/.GOV are already dealing with them, and thus can get less expensive contracts overall. I'd be VERY surprised if LMT/HK/POF became prime contractors for the piston operated M16/M4 rifles.
Link Posted: 2/26/2006 12:20:15 PM EDT
I think it's funny how everyone is heaping praise upon the Colt upper without ever shooting it.

WIZZO
Link Posted: 2/26/2006 12:51:57 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Ajaka:
Really don't care who wins, as long as parts are plentiful and cheap.




Originally Posted By Forest:
The Consumer.



+1 to both of the above.
Link Posted: 2/26/2006 12:58:34 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/26/2006 1:01:07 PM EDT by Variablebinary]

Originally Posted By Yojimbo:

Originally Posted By ChairborneRanger:
I vote for Colt. They have the credibility to prevail in the marketplace.



The one thing I really like about Colt's system is how it's accessed through the front sight. It seems to make it easier to maintin than having to remove the top rail.



*cough*POF*Cough*




I think it's funny how everyone is heaping praise upon the Colt upper without ever shooting it.

WIZZO



Yeah it is amusing. I think colt will win because colt is positioned well to become the standard, which has nothing to do with superior technology.

It isnt realistic to think all the companies will be successful. The industry and consumers wont allow that too happen. As I said, expect a duopoly where there is a dominate leader, and a smaller but succesful competitor.

VHS and Betamax is an example, or SACD vs DVD-Audio.

The one thing that can throw a wrench into the piston wars is new guns like the 556, SCAR and XCR where enough AR15 buyers abandon the platform and piston AR's languish enough to only support one company...
Link Posted: 2/26/2006 1:03:01 PM EDT

Originally Posted By WIZZO_ARAKM14:
I think it's funny how everyone is heaping praise upon the Colt upper without ever shooting it.

WIZZO



Link Posted: 2/26/2006 1:21:54 PM EDT

Originally Posted By WIZZO_ARAKM14:
I think it's funny how everyone is heaping praise upon the Colt upper without ever shooting it.
WIZZO



I personally do NOT like Colt due to their attitude towards civilian consumers. Whatever they're selling I want no part of it. I don't like Kool-Aid, no matter what flavor it is.

However, I am just stating the fact. The military likes to stay with the tried and true prime contractors for the vital systems. Colt is like General Defense of small arms to the military (I think GD also bought out some part of Colt? Doesn't GD also own Alliance, the folks that deal with ammo as well?) and .MIL will most likely deal with Colt or offer some type of solicitation that allows POF/LMT/others to compete. Colt will win, and get some large contract. It is up to Colt if they want to sub out some of the components to other vendors, but looking at the past, Colt will pump these out at their own facilities. They are able to offer it at an attractive price to .MIL and produce it in enough quantities to meet the contract requirements. Perhaps if a small contract were awarded, the other vendors would have a fighting chance. Just my 2 cents...
Link Posted: 2/26/2006 1:22:09 PM EDT

Originally Posted By WIZZO_ARAKM14:
I think it's funny how everyone is heaping praise upon the Colt upper without ever shooting it.

WIZZO


Which ones have you fired?
Link Posted: 2/26/2006 1:24:40 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/26/2006 1:25:30 PM EDT by metroplex]

Originally Posted By in_burrito:

Originally Posted By WIZZO_ARAKM14:
I think it's funny how everyone is heaping praise upon the Colt upper without ever shooting it.

WIZZO


Which ones have you fired?



Questioning Colt's ability to make a weapon is like asking if GDLS knows how to make combat vehicles or if Lockheed knows to design and manufacture fighter jets given their past history in said markets.
Link Posted: 2/26/2006 1:33:08 PM EDT
I also don't want my response to come across as being a Colt hater (although depending on my mood, I can be). I think they're on to something here, as well as the rest of the AR-piston crowd. It's nice to see Colt actually introducing something new rather than the same old, same old with no new innovations. If they are going out on a limb and making a piston AR, there must be something special about it. Add to that the fact that it is only supposed to retail for a couple hundred bucks more than the 6920, and I think they really have a winner on their hands.

If they would only start making their rifles with standard FCG pins, I'd think about buying one.

WIZZO
Link Posted: 2/26/2006 1:37:29 PM EDT

Originally Posted By WIZZO_ARAKM14:
I also don't want my response to come across as being a Colt hater


Then why do you keep hijacking the thread with the same old drivel?

What exactly does the following have to do with the topic at hand?

Originally Posted By WIZZO_ARAKM14:
If they would only start making their rifles with standard FCG pins, I'd think about buying one.

Link Posted: 2/26/2006 1:50:53 PM EDT
Colt and HK couldn't care less about civilian sales; like there is anything Earth shattering in that statement. And yet both seem to be doing pretty good in their sales department without the civilian market. Pisses me off for sure, but it doesn't seem to be affecting their bottom line any, at least not enough to make them change their policies. But to say HK won't make a good showing because of HK spec parts is plain silly. Just like the MP5 and G3 didn't make a go of it? Those firearms did not exactly use off the shelf parts now did they?
I agree with those that said it will be the consumer who wins. Lots of toys and eventually even the Colts and HKs will make their way into the civilian arena.
Frankly I don't see what all the fuss is about anyway. The M16 seems to have made a fine showing of itself over the last 50 years or so, so making it more complicated is an advantage in the fields of war how? What's next, a gas piston 1911 because we all know how unreliable it is?
Link Posted: 2/26/2006 1:53:44 PM EDT

Originally Posted By dennysguns:
Now the company that comes up with a gunsmith/user installable retro fit gas piston system .......................hey
Denny



POF... Are you listening???have
JK
Link Posted: 2/26/2006 1:55:34 PM EDT
If you actually read what I posted above, I was commending Colt on their new rifle.

I mentioned the FCG pins because that is the hangup that will keep me from buying one (or any) from Colt. If they would change those, I would be willing to overlook my OWN distaste for the brand and consider buying one because I doubt it will be a POS (that's about as close as I can get to giving them a pat on the back).

Hope this clears everything up. My intention wasn't to ruffle any feathers......this time.

WIZZO
Link Posted: 2/26/2006 2:00:59 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Big-Bore:
Colt and HK couldn't care less about civilian sales; like there is anything Earth shattering in that statement. And yet both seem to be doing pretty good in their sales department without the civilian market. Pisses me off for sure, but it doesn't seem to be affecting their bottom line any, at least not enough to make them change their policies. But to say HK won't make a good showing because of HK spec parts is plain silly. Just like the MP5 and G3 didn't make a go of it? Those firearms did not exactly use off the shelf parts now did they?
I agree with those that said it will be the consumer who wins. Lots of toys and eventually even the Colts and HKs will make their way into the civilian arena.
Frankly I don't see what all the fuss is about anyway. The M16 seems to have made a fine showing of itself over the last 50 years or so, so making it more complicated is an advantage in the fields of war how? What's next, a gas piston 1911 because we all know how unreliable it is?



A piston keeps fouling, carbon and heat out of the action and core of the AR15. How this is not seen as being an improvement and a good thing by some people astounds me

Now imagine every time you took a piss some urine got trapped in your balls and they got swollen with fluid that required an extra 15 minutes of draining with a special tube before you were back to normal. Even if your health wasnt affected and you were use to it, wouldnt it be better just to shake the drops off your stick like everyone else. Wouldnt that be easier and less of a pain in the ass.

Same thing for pistons. Yes the old "shit where you eat" AR15 action is proven, but that doesnt mean it isnt a pain in the ass that requires the gun to maintained more often than other combat weapons.

Link Posted: 2/26/2006 2:25:46 PM EDT
I hope POF does and has soon as I am able to Put my SIR's ,Yankeehill BMAS and any type of Float tube I get rid of my regular AR systems..Well maybe I will keep one or two for history value
Link Posted: 2/26/2006 6:59:22 PM EDT
Sunday, February 26, 2006

Hi Guys:

I think the bottom line in all of this is availability! Over the many years I have been involved in the firearms business, I have seen a lot of guns and accessories announced and displayed by the manufactures, written in all glory by the gun press; only never to be seen by the shooting public. Example: at the 2004 SHOT Show H&K announced, displayed, and made available for testing their 416 uppers. But here it is two-years later and where are their uppers? Hay, hay, the check is in the mail, I love you, I won’t get you @3$@$#5

I am very much interested in the gas-piston AR15 type uppers by Colt, H&K, and all the rest. But until I can pick up the telephone and order one from my distributors, and the UPS Truck pulls up in front of my shop with the packages, I have to reserve judgment.

A Colt or LW gas-piston in hand is better than an H&K or Bushmaster I can only read about or see on the websites.

Take care,

MP5 Machinenpistole
Link Posted: 2/26/2006 8:32:55 PM EDT
Interesting poll results. I'm leaning toward the Colt LE1020 if I was going the AR15 piston route. Odds are though if the any AR15 piston was on a dealers shelf next to a 556/XCR/SCAR, I would choose one of the latter.
Link Posted: 2/27/2006 2:40:29 AM EDT

Originally Posted By HeavyMetal:
Who won the cola wars?


coke.
Link Posted: 2/27/2006 3:47:02 AM EDT
The Colt and HK are the only ones I see as having a chance, and I give the edge to the Colt.


Disclaimer: I haven't fired any of them.
Link Posted: 2/27/2006 4:03:04 AM EDT
Interesting angle to this is that the Colt model(s) shown have been LE model(s) with .170 semi FCG's.

This would suggest it is aimed directly at the LE/civilian market

Hopefully, they will field a .mil version that proves to be a break through to extend the M4 in-service life span

Combine the piston with the patented material that operates with little to no lubrication, and you have a huge savings to the Pentagon by pushing back the need to replace all small arms with a new platform.

The SCAR may turn out to be a turd, and the XM8 will stay in the X category. In this case the Colt M4 wins big. Hell, they could even re-cature the M16 business.

and do not forget the cryptic clue posted by a contact at Colt, who said the secret project they are working on right now will blow your mind when you see it.



Link Posted: 2/27/2006 4:20:05 AM EDT
Out of your choices, I believe Colt is the only one that has a serious chance, especially if the Military decides to upgrade what they have instead going with a whole new rifle system like the FN SCAR. The L-W system is nice but I do not believe they have the money\resources\connections in DC to hit it big. Same with POF. I personally don't see the Sig 556 being a big seller, even in the civy market. It just offers too little improvement for too much $. HK - well HK is HK, they don't want to sell to civilians and the military historically won't pay HK prices except on a limited basis.

You didn't mention FN. I don't know if they are working on some kind of AR piston upper but if their SCAR rifle gets picked up by the Military and they sell to civilians then they will be the big winner.

Do you notice a theme in my response? - Military - IMO, for the piston uppers to be anything more then a novelty, the Military will have to adopt one of them. Which ever one they adopt (assuming they do adopt one) will become the standard and all others will go away. You know as well as I do, even the people who like to poo-poo the whole piston driven upper thing now will be the same people who run out and pay whatever it takes to get whatever the military is using.

This is just my opinion on this whole thing, feel free to disagree all you want
Link Posted: 2/27/2006 4:21:43 AM EDT
Define "win".

I mean, do Colt and POF get together, conquer LW and HK, then divide them into controlled zones ala Germany post WWII? This doesn't seem to be the right way to look at the market, as if someone wins and someone loses when competition exists, forcing the other to go out of business or become obsolete. Then again, this wouldn't be the first time such flawed analysis was applied to the AR market (ie. caliber X wins over caliber Y).
Link Posted: 2/27/2006 4:22:00 AM EDT
IIRC Colt's submission to the SCAR trials (the M5?) didn't make the cut. I would assume that the LE1020 system is based upon the M5, correct? I doubt they came up with 2 different piston systems. So .gov has already rejected the M5/LE1020 platform (at least for the SCAR program) so why would Colt necessarily be the one to get a contract? Granted, whoever eventually gets the big kahuna Uncle Sam deal will be the one which sets the standard and eventually overtakes the others. I just don't see how Colt is a sure thing to do it.


BTW, I have an L-W and a POF. Love 'em both!
Link Posted: 2/27/2006 4:42:14 AM EDT
Whatever Colt and FN are making and selling is probably what .MIL will end up using.
Arrow Left Previous Page
Page / 2
Top Top