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Posted: 2/24/2006 5:24:52 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/24/2006 5:29:35 AM EDT by zragon13]
The SCHV and SALVO projects in the 1950s which eventually led to the adoption of the 5.56mm/M16 combination, claimed that firing controlled salvos of small caliber bullets would have a higher hit probability than semi-auto 30 caliber fire.

From the The 5.56x45 Timeline:

Hitchman projects that a four round salvo with a predictable 20" spread might provide double the hit probability at 300 yards over a single shot fired from a M1 rifle


It seems to me that the 3-round burst mode used in the M16A2/A4 and M4 could be considered the closest and most widespread implementation of this concept to be actually fielded.

So I'm curious if the burst fire mode has proven itself more effective in reality. Is it found that, for example, given a single 30 rd mag and say 30 seconds to shoot at a target 100m away, a soldier using the burst mode will get more hits than one firing an M16 with semi-auto? At 50m? Do US troops generally use burst as their primary fire mode rather than semi-auto?
Link Posted: 2/24/2006 5:31:19 AM EDT
If i'm not mistaken the SALVO burst theory was centered around a very high ROF, getting as many rounds out of the barrel before the recoil impulse overcame the weapon's inertia. The M16A2's burst mode wasn't influenced by this doctrine and was just a way to conserve ammo, after vietnam the top brass apparently didn't trust GI's with FA anymore.
Link Posted: 2/24/2006 5:39:17 AM EDT
Yeah, the second round on the M16A2 might not be anywhere near 20" from the initial point of aim at 100m.
Link Posted: 2/24/2006 5:49:12 AM EDT

Originally Posted By boltcatch:
Yeah, the second round on the M16A2 might not be anywhere near 20" from the initial point of aim at 100m.



Where do you get that? Not trying to start shit, but we shot at a target 200 yards away with burst just to see where the rounds would go. average group was about 8 inches, best being 5, and worst being a bit over 11 inches. we shot at least 10 full 30 round mags, if not a few more...

we were in a low kneeling position.
Link Posted: 2/24/2006 6:46:31 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/24/2006 6:46:46 AM EDT by DK-Prof]

Originally Posted By kemp:
If i'm not mistaken the SALVO burst theory was centered around a very high ROF, getting as many rounds out of the barrel before the recoil impulse overcame the weapon's inertia. The M16A2's burst mode wasn't influenced by this doctrine and was just a way to conserve ammo, after vietnam the top brass apparently didn't trust GI's with FA anymore.




Which seems to be what the HK g11 incorporated - the 3-shot burst on the g11 was supposed to be at a much higher rate than regular full auto fire, I believe.
Link Posted: 2/24/2006 9:36:03 AM EDT

Where do you get that


From my own lousy marksmanship on 3 round burst.
Link Posted: 2/24/2006 9:51:15 AM EDT

Originally Posted By DK-Prof:

Originally Posted By kemp:
If i'm not mistaken the SALVO burst theory was centered around a very high ROF, getting as many rounds out of the barrel before the recoil impulse overcame the weapon's inertia. The M16A2's burst mode wasn't influenced by this doctrine and was just a way to conserve ammo, after vietnam the top brass apparently didn't trust GI's with FA anymore.




Which seems to be what the HK g11 incorporated - the 3-shot burst on the g11 was supposed to be at a much higher rate than regular full auto fire, I believe.



Dead on correct. The M16A2 burst mode is nothing more than a 3-round burst, fired under the same mechanics as a 2 round burst or a 10 round burst. The gun operates the same way regardless of round count and doesn't follow the point of a "burst." "Burst" firing under SALVO was designed to engage targets at extended ranges. The mechanical 3-round burst in an M16A2 is utterly useless at that range as you might get a hit on then first round, but rounds 2 and 3 will be off target. At that range aimed semi-auto fire is far more effective.

The G11 in burst mode fires under entirely different mechanics than it does in full-auto. If burst mode, the G11 fires 3 rounds at a much higher cyclic rate than it would firing 3 rounds under full-auto, the 3rd round exiting the barrel before the recoil impulse effects point of aim. That was the whole point of SALVO.
Link Posted: 2/24/2006 10:09:01 AM EDT
SALVO determined that a very high rate of fire, with a predictable dispersion was the ideal combat weapon -- the easy way to think of it is a shotgun with a lethal range of 500 meters and a controlled spread of about 20" -- the initial work actually led to design to *degrade* the accuracy of the rifle, to get a "pattern" rather than a "group"... one method was a freely rotating, ecentricated (off balance) muzzle device that would "throw" the rounds out is a somewhat random, yet circular pattern. All of this depended on a higher rate of fire than we have seen from the platform in a long time however.

The current doctrine is moving back towards riflemen, vice grenadiers and a more leathal single round, delivered accurately is the order of the day.
Link Posted: 2/25/2006 12:00:48 AM EDT
OK,
I accept that the M16A2 burst mode is more like fullauto "on a budget" rather than the controlled-spread super high-rate burst envisioned by SCHV/SALVO. However since weapons like the various SPIW prototypes, the G11 or the Russian AN-94 were either not completed or not issued for servce, the A2 with its burst feature seems the closest to a real field test of the concept.

But let's leave aside the long range results per SCHV/SALVO. At ranges up to 50 or 100m, over a short time period will the soldier score more hits with burst than semi-auto?

Do American soldiers use burst as the primary setting? In the IDF we don't have the burst feature on our M16s. We use semi-auto 98% of the time. Fullauto is reserved for short range (<15m?) ambushes and room/trench clearing, although some claim that rapid semi is better for that as well.

For kicks (and reciving a scolding by the girl instructor), I fired some 2-4 rd fullauto bursts at the 25m zeroing range last summer. Though I think I kept them all on the silouette target, I doubt that my spread was less than 10 in so I'm very impressed that someone can get 8in groups at 200 yds. This was off a bipod too.
Link Posted: 2/25/2006 12:42:30 AM EDT
Only gun I know that does it now and would even reach widespread use if it's country could afford it is the AN94.


world.guns.ru/assault/as08-e.htm
Link Posted: 2/26/2006 11:19:25 AM EDT

Originally Posted By zragon13:

But let's leave aside the long range results per SCHV/SALVO. At ranges up to 50 or 100m, over a short time period will the soldier score more hits with burst than semi-auto?

Do American soldiers use burst as the primary setting? In the IDF we don't have the burst feature on our M16s. We use semi-auto 98% of the time. Fullauto is reserved for short range (<15m?) ambushes and room/trench clearing, although some claim that rapid semi is better for that as well.



Nada? So no one else has any experience with the A2 burst mode or are these questions just simply stupid or obvious?
Link Posted: 2/26/2006 11:53:17 AM EDT
Link Posted: 2/26/2006 10:15:53 PM EDT
Stickman,
Thanks, I gotcha.
I tought it might be more frequently used because of some photos I saw from Iraq of a US soldier shooting an M4 with multiple spent cartridges in the air and some other accounts that I read.

I guess I'll just have to wait until the Russians fix their economy and equip all their soldiers with AN94s to see if the SALVO idea had merit.
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