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Posted: 2/21/2006 7:27:41 PM EDT
I purchaced what I was told was a brand new Bushmaster M4 from a local dealer. It's an A2 w/ bird case flash hider and 4 position telestock. I got it in different light at the range and noticed the upper receiver and barrel have some wear on the finish. As it turns out, I know for sure that he ripped me ff badly on some magazines. Now I'm wondering if this gun was pieced together using old parts on a new lower and sold as new.

The marking on the lower are:
-Mod xm15-e2s
-Bushmaster logo and serial number

There are no obvious marking on the upper, which is the area I'm really curious about..

The barrel says 8 MP Nato 5.56 1/9.
Link Posted: 2/21/2006 7:31:40 PM EDT
Link Posted: 2/21/2006 7:34:35 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/21/2006 7:35:13 PM EDT by Rekced]
This is the only one I have right now. I'll post a closer one later. You can see the wear marks on the upper. They do not rub off.

http://home.comcast.net/~md6040/CRW_2496.jpg
Link Posted: 2/21/2006 7:35:32 PM EDT
thats a weird beast.
Link Posted: 2/21/2006 7:37:52 PM EDT
223semiauto- What's that supposed to mean?
Link Posted: 2/21/2006 7:42:05 PM EDT
A1 upper with M4 1/9 barrel and A2 FS. Weird indeed... You can order those parts from Bushmaster but haven't seen a complete rifle or upper like that from Bushmaster...

TS
Link Posted: 2/21/2006 7:43:49 PM EDT
This is copied from Bushmaster's website.

"We have seen this happen many times here. We get rifles all the time for warranty service that have our lower receiver, but every other part is a gun show special. Before purchasing, look things over carefully. You are about to lay down a sizeable chunk of money, so take a minute to be sure of what you are buying. Bushmaster's identifying marks are:
On the barrel, in front of the front sight, it will be stamped: "B MP 5.56 NATO 1/9 H BAR" (exactly that way). On some barrels, it may be under the handguard, but it will still say that exact thing. The only difference might be a 1/7 instead of a 1/9 . This denotes the rifling twist.
Our front sights are held on by two taper pins, one through each of the bands of the front sight. We do not use hollow roll pins, never have - never will.
Our handguards have aluminum heat shields in them.
Our barrels have the correct gray/green manganese phosphate finish, not black.
Our tele-stocks have a small roll pin holding the nut on under the sliding latch. If it's not pinned, it's not ours.
Our hammers and triggers have polished contact surfaces.
We always use aluminum delta rings to retain the handguards.
Our buffers have a gold-colored finish on them, which is easy to see inside the stock.
Our aluminum parts all have the mil. spec hard anodized flat or matte finish to them, not shiny. This includes the receivers, the charging handle, and the delta ring. However, oil on the surface might make the normally flat or matte finish appear shiny. The best insurance is to always buy from a local dealer, someone you can go back to if you have any problems. Most of them are reputable, and will at least help you contact the factory for service problems."

K
Link Posted: 2/21/2006 7:48:02 PM EDT
Oh no!

They sold the gun to me saying it was new.. Is there anything I can do about that?
Link Posted: 2/21/2006 7:51:45 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/21/2006 7:55:09 PM EDT by Stickman]
Link Posted: 2/21/2006 8:01:08 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/21/2006 8:03:59 PM EDT by Rekced]
Stickman- Thanks for the reply! That's very useful information.
Is it legal for shops to sell rifles like this as "New".

If those mods/assembally weren't performed by Bushmaster, I assume I have no warranty and am basically stuck with someone's garage creation?
Link Posted: 2/21/2006 8:09:05 PM EDT
Link Posted: 2/21/2006 8:16:22 PM EDT
It may have been ordered that way too......I have a post-ban 20" HBAR, with an A1 upper that came from the factory that way.

Link Posted: 2/21/2006 8:18:17 PM EDT
Are you talking about the pattern of squares at the base of the carryhandle? If so I got a brand new Bushy that looked like that. Look for a forge mark on the upper, it might look like a keyhole.
Link Posted: 2/21/2006 8:25:06 PM EDT
Stick- I didn't receive your IM sir.
Link Posted: 2/21/2006 8:28:57 PM EDT
Link Posted: 2/21/2006 8:53:23 PM EDT
That's a great looking carbine. Those marks from the vice action block are quite common on Bushamster assembled rifles. I have them on 12 I have. One quick thought would be to look at the packing box you got with the rifle. Did it come in a BM padded case? Was the stout cardboard box included with the purchase? If not, is their foam inside the box it came with Is there a BM stock number annotated on the end of any box the rifle came with. If so, what is that number series?
Link Posted: 2/21/2006 8:57:56 PM EDT
Link Posted: 2/21/2006 9:01:35 PM EDT
Link Posted: 2/21/2006 9:04:37 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/21/2006 9:05:52 PM EDT by Rekced]
KingC-

That's a great looking carbine.
Thankyou. I needed that 'cause I'm feeling pretty crappy about this tonight.


Those marks from the vice action block are quite common on Bushamster assembled rifles.
That's reassuring. I will contact Bushmaster tomorrow and see what they can tell me about the serial number.

Did it come in a BM padded case?
Yes


Was the stout cardboard box included with the purchase?
No


If not, is their foam inside the box it came with Is there a BM stock number annotated on the end of any box the rifle came with.
I will have to check later tonight. I put the box in storage.


If so, what is that number series?

L400***
Link Posted: 2/21/2006 9:13:55 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/21/2006 9:17:03 PM EDT by KingC]
Usually, usually, Bushmaster has stock numbers on a white label on one end of a stout cardboard the plastic case fits into. The number is a very long number derived from Bushmasters model designations.

You have a great looking carbine, but if it was not as was represented to you at point of purchase, I understand your downtake.

OHHHHHHHH! Does the telestock have the BM Snake molded into it at any place? They usually have that symbol on the stock on one side.
Link Posted: 2/21/2006 9:27:07 PM EDT
KingC- I checked the outside of the box and didn't find any kind of serial number. A warranty card is inside the platic box, along with a manual, strap and one magazine.

The telestock does have the snake emblem molden into it.


Link Posted: 2/21/2006 9:31:14 PM EDT
Link Posted: 2/21/2006 9:35:05 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/21/2006 9:37:33 PM EDT by KingC]

Originally Posted By Rekced:
KingC- I checked the outside of the box and didn't find any kind of serial number. A warranty card is inside the platic box, along with a manual, strap and one magazine.

The telestock does have the snake emblem molden into it.





This would be a BM stock number. Is their any long number at the end of the box. Otherwise, check with BM in the morning. They will tell you iffn it was shipped as a complete unit.. If this is not what you were expecting, do you think the dealer will accept a return? The thiang looks absolutely greased and unfired, so if not happy, would a return be acceptable?

And yes, as Stick says, the A1 is a fovorite, my favorite, and even a lighter package, but I understand not being represented as what you were looking for.
Link Posted: 2/21/2006 9:36:14 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/21/2006 9:39:07 PM EDT by Rekced]
Stickman- Is it really common for people to put the barrel in like that? I don't think the shop I was dealing had the tools to do that kind of work.
Link Posted: 2/21/2006 9:38:46 PM EDT

Originally Posted By KingC:

Originally Posted By Rekced:
KingC- I checked the outside of the box and didn't find any kind of serial number. A warranty card is inside the platic box, along with a manual, strap and one magazine.

The telestock does have the snake emblem molden into it.





This would be a BM stock number. Is their any long number at the end of the box. Otherwise, check with BM in the morning. They will tell you iffn it was shipped as a complete unit.. If this is not what you were expecting, do you think the dealer will accept a return? The thiang looks absolutely greased and unfired, so if not happy, would a return be acceptable?



I highly doubt it 'cause I signed the piece of paper that said no returns on firearms. But this is a different situation.
Link Posted: 2/21/2006 9:42:00 PM EDT
Link Posted: 2/21/2006 10:02:37 PM EDT

I’ve seen pieced together AR15s from junk parts for sale at their store. When some idiot screws up a build that’s where they end up. But they always say "used" on the tag. Always.

Once in a while they have a new Bushmaster for sale. I’ve seen them and they were new alright. I think you should call Bushmaster to confirm date of build and what shop bought it. If that is a "used" gun they owe you your money back for misrepresenting it as "new."

That store also uses the term "as new" for the nicer "used" guns.
Link Posted: 2/21/2006 10:13:11 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/21/2006 10:26:20 PM EDT by Rekced]
TangoFoxtrot- I guess I'm not sure what makes a used gun a used gun. If I can prove that they did not buy it as a complete rifle from Bushmaster, does that make it used? Doesn't it have to come from the factory or something to be new? They clearly maked the gun as "New" and I have it on my receipt.

Ok, it sounds liek there's three possible scenarios.

1.) They bought an odd ball M4 A1/A2 hybrid from Bushmaster. Perhaps it could have been a cancled order or something. I cant dispute that being classified as a new gun.


2.) They purchaced the lower and built the rest themselves in the shop. Wouldn't they have to be considered a gun manufacturer to get away with that?

3.) Some guy just traded in a used gun and they lied and sold it as new.

Am I seeing the whole picture here?



If I can prove they were wrong about it being new, what should I threaten if they refuse to refuse to give me a refund?


Link Posted: 2/21/2006 10:27:11 PM EDT

First , it's on the price tag but they probably kept that.

They will also have given you a yellow copy of the reciept with boxes for New and Used. They should have put a checkmark in the "New" or "Used" box. If it's in the "used" box you will have a tougher time getting any money back. They also have check boxes for the owners manual and warranty card given.
Link Posted: 2/21/2006 10:45:53 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/21/2006 10:46:06 PM EDT by Rekced]
TangoFoxtrot-

They marked the "New" box.

They also called it an A2 on the receipt.
Link Posted: 2/21/2006 10:59:40 PM EDT
If this was sold before at retail the gunstore cannot sell it as new. They would have to sell it as unfired. Thats a nice rifle you bought . Like eveyone else said just call bushmaster., but most manufactures will not give the info over the phone.
Link Posted: 2/22/2006 1:52:52 AM EDT
All of the post 94 Bushmaster stripped lowers I have bought to build my own rifles with, have an "L" at the begining of the serial number. All of the post 94 factory Bushmaster rifles I have purchased have a "BFI" at the strart of the serial number. Hope this might help you somewhat.

Link Posted: 2/22/2006 2:29:17 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Cedar_Creek:
All of the post 94 Bushmaster stripped lowers I have bought to build my own rifles with, have an "L" at the begining of the serial number. All of the post 94 factory Bushmaster rifles I have purchased have a "BFI" at the strart of the serial number. Hope this might help you somewhat.





Thank you. That is so messed up.
Link Posted: 2/22/2006 2:32:58 AM EDT
Well first off...........Welcome to the new disease you have, and welcome to the sight.


I personally like the carbine you purchased, yet you may have purchased it by some dishonest people or some non-knowing (retards) gun-shop owners.
It looks like to me that you might have some BM parts but not all of them. If you call BM they will tellyou if what you purchased was a complete firearm
or a partial, like a stripped lower. BM boxes can be bought all the time for nothing on ebay or even BM.

Alot of people buy AR15's and dont think about if it is real or not because they dont ride in our circle here on ARFCOM. Most people here dont buy complete AR's, unless their Colt. Most here build, because it is way cheaper.

Having said that, you will now research every purchase you will ever make before putting down a wad of cash
on anything ever again. It happened to me and most people here, they just want their first one and will overlook most things about it
until its to late to do anything about it.

In my opinion about your purchase is this.......... You bought a carbine that was put together with aftermarket
parts and some factory BM parts probably. Maybe not..........


Bushmaster will know, they will tell you how it went out from the factory. If its different, raise holy hell on the people (retards) who told you that is was factory.

What does it for me is the M4 stock doesnt have the snake emblem.......... Thats not Bushmaster.
Link Posted: 2/22/2006 2:43:13 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/22/2006 2:58:13 AM EDT by mvician]

Originally Posted By Cedar_Creek:
All of the post 94 Bushmaster stripped lowers I have bought to build my own rifles with, have an "L" at the begining of the serial number. All of the post 94 factory Bushmaster rifles I have purchased have a "BFI" at the strart of the serial number. Hope this might help you somewhat.



Mine is a complete factory Bushie and the serial starts with a "L"

Mike

found this a few threads down....

ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=118&t=270260

Link Posted: 2/22/2006 2:44:49 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/22/2006 2:48:43 AM EDT by AROKIE]

Originally Posted By rogue007:
Well first off...........Welcome to the new disease you have, and welcome to the sight.site


I personally like the carbine you purchased, yet you may have purchased it by some dishonest people or some non-knowing (retards) gun-shop owners.
It looks like to me that you might have some BM parts but not all of them. If you call BM they will tellyou if what you purchased was a complete firearm
or a partial, like a stripped lower. BM boxes can be bought all the time for nothing on ebay or even BM.

Alot of people buy AR15's and dont think about if it is real or not because they dont ride in our circle here on ARFCOM. Most people here dont buy complete AR's, unless their Colt. WTF??I disagree with that statement. Most here build, because it is way cheaper.

Having said that, you will now research every purchase you will ever make before putting down a wad of cash
on anything ever again. It happened to me and most people here, I never made a purcahse with out fully knowing what I am buying they just want their first one and will overlook most things about it
until its to late to do anything about it. as a matter of fact this whole paragraph is BS.you need to speak for yourself, the majority of "us" here dont have our heads up our ass'es. and i personally dont think you have been here long enough to speak for the rest of us.

In my opinion about your purchase is this.......... You bought a carbine that was put together with aftermarket
parts and some factory BM parts probably. Maybe not..........


Bushmaster will know, they will tell you how it went out from the factory. If its different, raise holy hell on the people (retards) who told you that is was factory.

What does it for me is the M4 stock doesnt have the snake emblem.......... Thats not Bushmaster.

Link Posted: 2/22/2006 2:53:48 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/22/2006 2:56:57 AM EDT by Rekced]
AROKIE- He was just trying to make me feel better about it. It worked.


How much research is normally required when you're buying something brand new from a reputable company like Bushmaster? It didn't even occur to me that they could be lying about it being a new firearm.

I am so bummed.
Link Posted: 2/22/2006 3:38:36 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/22/2006 3:41:02 AM EDT by Rekced]
Ok, I have a plan for returning it to The Gun Broker if Bushmaster says they sold the lower receiver separately to another individual.

I called my credit card company and asked what I can do about cancling a charge (I did put it on a credit card ) They said that I am certainly able to dispute a charge for things exactly like this. He said what they do is stop the payment until the issue is resolved.

What I'm thinking about ding is this:

Take a friend with me and stand outside with a camera and have him take pics of me going in the store with the rifle. I'll be nice and explain the situation very clearly. I'll explain what Bushmaster said and that there's a discrepancy on my receipt. I will give them the chance to make it right. If they refuse, I will set down the rifle on the counter, explain that I've had my photograph taking going in and out, AND while I was at the counter to show that I did indeed give them the rifle back. (They are an FFL, so I think they're responsible for all firearms on their property if I'm not mistaken.) I will tell then I am cancling that portion of the charge and that if they'd like to bring me to court, go right ahead... I will then walk right out and hope I never hear anything from them again. It's not like they're gonna go to court when they know they're wrong and it's only over an $800 rifle, don't you think?

What are your thoughts?
Link Posted: 2/22/2006 4:28:23 AM EDT
I would probably keep it and be happy. That's one awesome looking set up. I also noticed the upper has actual Alco-Harvey forge symbol on it (the A over the H) on the right side of your carry handle by the rear sight.

It looks like you have some genuine quality parts there, in an awesome looking setup. When I was in the military we had carbines set up just like that...M4 profile barrel w/rifle barrel extension and A1 Upper. We used them to issue to K9 handlers.

Cool gun...keep it, you have something unique and quite possibly Bushmaster made. They have all those parts.
Link Posted: 2/22/2006 4:31:10 AM EDT

Originally Posted By AROKIE:

Originally Posted By rogue007:
Well first off...........Welcome to the new disease you have, and welcome to the sight.site


I personally like the carbine you purchased, yet you may have purchased it by some dishonest people or some non-knowing (retards) gun-shop owners.
It looks like to me that you might have some BM parts but not all of them. If you call BM they will tellyou if what you purchased was a complete firearm
or a partial, like a stripped lower. BM boxes can be bought all the time for nothing on ebay or even BM.

Alot of people buy AR15's and dont think about if it is real or not because they dont ride in our circle here on ARFCOM. Most people here dont buy complete AR's, unless their Colt. WTF??I disagree with that statement. most rifles here are home built Most here build, because it is way cheaper.

Having said that, you will now research every purchase you will ever make before putting down a wad of cash
on anything ever again. It happened to me and most people here, I never made a purcahse with out fully knowing what I am buying okay you can say that you are a expert, but there was a time you overpaid for item, and there was a time you too were a newbie they just want their first one and will overlook most things about it
until its to late to do anything about it. as a matter of fact this whole paragraph is BS.you need to speak for yourself, the majority of "us" here dont have our heads up our ass'es. and i personally dont think you have been here long enough to speak for the rest of us. head up my ass? I have been here longer than think..........you dont know me and dont even start to think that you do. I am helping the poor guy out, he spent a big wad of cash on a rifle that was misleading
and now he feels ripped off. My first carbine I purchased was around a $1000, now finding this sight and others I now build complete ones for about $500-600 thats some change you can save for
ammo, add-ons, mags, and most important.........training. Now, get your head out of your ass, its just the fucking internet..........I bet you are freaking out like this kid right now.


In my opinion about your purchase is this.......... You bought a carbine that was put together with aftermarket
parts and some factory BM parts probably. Maybe not..........


Bushmaster will know, they will tell you how it went out from the factory. If its different, raise holy hell on the people (retards) who told you that is was factory.

What does it for me is the M4 stock doesnt have the snake emblem.......... Thats not Bushmaster.


Link Posted: 2/22/2006 4:48:48 AM EDT
Do NOT just walk out of the store without the rifle, and assume your CC company will take care of you. BTW, if it was a DEBIT card you used, you may be out of luck; some debit cards look and function like credit cards, but without purchase protection.

Did the CC company tell you the charge is now frozen? And that an investigation has begun? If so, just go in and inform the store that you put a hold on the charge. If Bushmaster confirms that the rifle is not a complete rifle, I can't imagine you will have a problem. Offer to exchange the rifle immediately for a full refund to your CC. You can probably get the consumer protection dept of the the CC company on the phone while you're in the store, and get the whole thing cleared up.

But don't walk out of the store with no rifle and no receipt; that photo won't be worth shit.

I know it's probably a satisfactory carbine (please forgive the above nomenclature), but I know how you feel about getting ripped off. Like finding out your wife was once a hooker, or something. . . .
Link Posted: 2/22/2006 5:02:25 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/22/2006 5:07:14 AM EDT by rogue007]
Yeah forget about the stuff said up top..............some people really want you to feel like shit.

All I was saying is the way I found myself and others is this...........


newb............"I bought a new Bushmaster today"..........

arfcommer........"oh yeah, how much?"

newb..........."$1150, is that too much?"

arfcommer........$1150!?!?!.........you got ripped dude! go here (link) and get it for $200 cheaper"

newb........."Well its too late I already bought it and they say I cant return firearms in for a refund........"

arfcommer........."Dude, you got so ripped"



...............................................................................................................................................................



So called experts with high posts counts still dont know shit most sometimes..........

I hate seeing that in posts.........Its like I can see peoples stomachs sink when being told stuff like that.....
Link Posted: 2/22/2006 5:27:19 AM EDT

Like finding out your wife was once a hooker, or something. . . .



It's not that bad

If the only problem is paying 200.00 too much for a Bushmaster you will live.
Link Posted: 2/22/2006 6:15:33 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/22/2006 6:19:03 AM EDT by AROKIE]

Originally Posted By rogue007:

Originally Posted By AROKIE:

Originally Posted By rogue007:
Well first off...........Welcome to the new disease you have, and welcome to the sight.site


I personally like the carbine you purchased, yet you may have purchased it by some dishonest people or some non-knowing (retards) gun-shop owners.
It looks like to me that you might have some BM parts but not all of them. If you call BM they will tellyou if what you purchased was a complete firearm
or a partial, like a stripped lower. BM boxes can be bought all the time for nothing on ebay or even BM.

Alot of people buy AR15's and dont think about if it is real or not because they dont ride in our circle here on ARFCOM. Most people here dont buy complete AR's, unless their Colt. WTF??I disagree with that statement. most rifles here are home built Most here build, because it is way cheaper. ya but you say that most of the complete ar's bought are colts??? that is the biggest crock of shit i have ever heard!! that is band wagon speak there!!


Having said that, you will now research every purchase you will ever make before putting down a wad of cash
on anything ever again. It happened to me and most people here, I never made a purcahse with out fully knowing what I am buying okay you can say that you are a expert, but there was a time you overpaid for item, and there was a time you too were a newbie they just want their first one and will overlook most things about it
until its to late to do anything about it. as a matter of fact this whole paragraph is BS.you need to speak for yourself, the majority of "us" here dont have our heads up our ass'es. and i personally dont think you have been here long enough to speak for the rest of us. head up my ass? I have been here longer than think..........you dont know me and dont even start to think that you do. I am helping the poor guy out, he spent a big wad of cash on a rifle that was misleading
and now he feels ripped off. My first carbine I purchased was around a $1000, now finding this sight and others I now build complete ones for about $500-600 thats some change you can save for
ammo, add-ons, mags, and most important.........training. Now, get your head out of your ass, its just the fucking internet..........I bet you are freaking out like this kid right now.


In my opinion about your purchase is this.......... You bought a carbine that was put together with aftermarket
parts and some factory BM parts probably. Maybe not..........


Bushmaster will know, they will tell you how it went out from the factory. If its different, raise holy hell on the people (retards) who told you that is was factory.

What does it for me is the M4 stock doesnt have the snake emblem.......... Thats not Bushmaster.





im so freaking out right now!!!!!
Link Posted: 2/22/2006 6:45:44 AM EDT
Either way, you should keep it. From all the positive replys to this post, you should have no problem selling this in the EE.
Link Posted: 2/22/2006 7:29:18 AM EDT
WTF...call BM, if it was sold as a complete rifle, learn how to service your new toy and tear it down looking for signs of wear, cheapo parts, etc. If everything looks good, KEEP THE DAMNED THING. As stated many people actually prefer that upper. If you prefer the A2, then just take it back and tell them their mistake and let them take care of you. If BM states it was sold as a stripped lower, then dispute the charge and go take it up with the shop. Seriously...stop whining about it and do something, then come whine to us afterwards.
Link Posted: 2/22/2006 8:00:52 AM EDT

Originally Posted By AROKIE:

im so freaking out right now!!!!!





ME TOO!!!!!!





[irish accent] I still luv ya, always have. [/irish accent]
Link Posted: 2/22/2006 8:02:26 AM EDT
Keep the unique carbine, I like it!!!!!!!
Link Posted: 2/22/2006 8:13:29 AM EDT

As long as you will be in the neighborhood, drive up Hwy 205 about three miles to Johnson Creek Blvd, turn left onto it, and when you get to the Home Depot make another left onto 82nd Ave. A couple of blocks down on the right you will see a Sportsman’s Warehouse that also stocks Bushmasters.
Link Posted: 2/22/2006 8:21:59 AM EDT
there is a bushmaster production run offered by davidsons as shot show specials
they are this model dont know about the wear marks on the reciever if you have concerns
talk to your ffl dealer and ask if it came from davidsons because they give a lifetime
warrenty hope this helps. also call bushmaster give them the serial # and they will
tell you how it was shipped
bill
Link Posted: 2/22/2006 10:27:51 AM EDT
Dealer got stuck with a postban and ......
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