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Posted: 2/20/2006 7:30:22 AM EDT
Has anyone seen both in person? Any initial impressions? I'm not holding my breath to be able to buy both, but I'm curious how they stack up.
Link Posted: 2/20/2006 7:32:06 AM EDT
I checked both out at the SHOT show, and I couldn't really give one the upper hand over the other without actually shooting, disassembling, etc. The Colt was slightly lighter, I believe.
Link Posted: 2/20/2006 8:45:55 AM EDT
one you wont be able to buy, the other will sell at a price twice the cost of POF or LW sytems that do the same thing

for the same pice of the colt upper you could probly get a Sig556 and replacment furniture furniture to make it look like a 552

Link Posted: 2/20/2006 8:46:59 AM EDT
It begins...
Link Posted: 2/20/2006 8:49:17 AM EDT

Originally Posted By CitySlicker:
It begins...



Link Posted: 2/20/2006 9:10:41 AM EDT

Originally Posted By m4hk33:
one you wont be able to buy, the other will sell at a price twice the cost of POF or LW sytems that do the same thing

for the same pice of the colt upper you could probly get a Sig556 and replacment furniture furniture to make it look like a 552




Betcha I could get one....gimme a couple grand and I'll prove it to you.
Link Posted: 2/20/2006 9:20:46 AM EDT
LOL, i bet I could find one for a few grand as well

yeah I know the may be out there but for what you getting you could get a high quality Mp5 cloan, Sig 556/552 conversion, FN scar, or PS2000, all for the cost of a single upper

while i think that a piston system is a good idea, its not worth twice the amount as a regular upper to me. or in the case of the HK, 4 or 5 uppers,

Link Posted: 2/21/2006 4:08:21 AM EDT
tag
Link Posted: 3/19/2006 5:37:23 AM EDT
I noticed the HK 416 comes with (or is available with) a two-stage trigger

The Army is buying some for its Asymmetric Warfare Group........Source


While the Hk will not be available for my purchase, the Colt LE1020/1033 will be

So this makes the choice an easy one.
Link Posted: 3/19/2006 5:46:33 AM EDT
Link Posted: 3/19/2006 6:13:48 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Aimless:
I've seen an HK 416 fired, but how much can you tell without having it for several months and putting 10k rounds through it? I still think this piston stuff is like double action/single action pistols, an answer in search of a question.



Oh shit, you've done it...you've opened the can of worms!

I've never had a problem with reliability out of my standard carbines so I can't see these helping in that aspect but if they make cleaning easier (yes I'm lazy) then I would be interested in one.

Plus, it's nice to have all the cool-guy stuff so you can show off at the range
Link Posted: 3/19/2006 8:13:39 AM EDT
Until any of these players to be named show up on the field, we might as well discuss which is better:

1. The P47 space modulator

2. Han Solos blaster

Personally, I like Han Solos because it had better optics and a drop leg hoster, and those are really cool. I am thinking about getting one in Multicam.

And as far as ballistics, the blaster did an number on Greedo and the space modulator just doesn't hold up under combat conditions (I read that on the internet).


Just my .02
Link Posted: 3/19/2006 8:16:55 AM EDT
I would go with the Colt
Link Posted: 3/19/2006 8:25:05 AM EDT

Originally Posted By cpt_en_ca:
Until any of these players to be named show up on the field, we might as well discuss which is better:

1. The P47 space modulator

2. Han Solos blaster

Personally, I like Han Solos because it had better optics and a drop leg hoster, and those are really cool. I am thinking about getting one in Multicam.

And as far as ballistics, the blaster did an number on Greedo and the space modulator just doesn't hold up under combat conditions (I read that on the internet).


Just my .02



Agreed. Han's blaster would have taken care of Vader if it wasn't for Darth's force-using abilities. It was accurate enough for shooting mynocks chewing on the Falcon's external power cables.

All joking aside, it really doesn't matter which one is better. HK's will never be available in the USA, right??

The Colt, despite their dumb sales policy, will still be available in your local gun store and right here in the EE section.

I'm hoping for a Sig 556 with retro features. (the correct folding stock & handguards) If not, my gas piston rifle chambered in 5.56 will be the new Colt.

Scott
Link Posted: 3/19/2006 9:14:46 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/19/2006 9:15:53 AM EDT by BravoCompanyUSA]
Link Posted: 3/19/2006 9:21:21 AM EDT
Here's some of my thoughts:

I have a standard AR.

I don't think I'll be buying a P90 even though they seem neat.

I don't think I'll buy an FN 2000 because I don't care for bullpups and because they are $2000.

The SIG rifles look good and if they fix the aesthetic issues I'm sure I'll get one.

I don't trust RobArm to deliver or support the XCR.

The FN SCAR is on my list but wont be available for another two years.

The Colt LE 1020 looks good to me. Remember, it's not just a gas piston but a monolithic railed upper and built-in BUIS. That there's good stuff.
Link Posted: 3/19/2006 9:34:28 AM EDT
There is no competition. HK hands down from a functional perspective.

The HK is a true self regulating short stroke piston. The colt is not. We spent a long time with the fella from the Colt Tool room who designed it. He seemed a bit embarrassed by it. They were pressed into a monolithic with a removable bottom to mount the M203 so were essentially stuck with the direction they ultimately went.

The fact that it is colt it will be a commercially accepted product no matter what.

I happen to know they already got a PO for some weapons for an ARMY SFG in 6.8. Un-proven but the brass is not letting them procure anything else at this juncture and it is solely for legal reasons.
Link Posted: 3/19/2006 9:49:53 AM EDT

Originally Posted By 48thHighlander:
I happen to know they already got a PO for some weapons for an ARMY SFG in 6.8. Un-proven but the brass is not letting them procure anything else at this juncture and it is solely for legal reasons.



Just to clarify- a PO for Colt 1020s in 6.8mm? What is the legal reason for mandating that company/model? Does that affect the ability of SFGs to continue buying L-W weapons?
Link Posted: 3/19/2006 9:59:45 AM EDT
I would stick with the COLT

Dont want a HK looking M16

Even if its cool
Link Posted: 3/19/2006 10:17:00 AM EDT

Originally Posted By cpt_en_ca:
Until any of these players to be named show up on the field, we might as well discuss which is better:

1. The P47 space modulator

2. Han Solos blaster

Personally, I like Han Solos because it had better optics and a drop leg hoster, and those are really cool. I am thinking about getting one in Multicam.

And as far as ballistics, the blaster did an number on Greedo and the space modulator just doesn't hold up under combat conditions (I read that on the internet).

Just my .02



Wow this is the dumbest thing I ever read!! I mean Robocop's gun is not even represented in this argument?
Link Posted: 3/19/2006 10:26:29 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Moe-Ron:


Wow this is the dumbest thing I ever read!! I mean Robocop's gun is not even represented in this argument?



You're mentioning RoboCop's gun before Judge Dredd's LawGiver?
You Moe-Ron!
Link Posted: 3/19/2006 10:50:54 AM EDT

Originally Posted By ejskle:
Has anyone seen both in person? Any initial impressions? I'm not holding my breath to be able to buy both, but I'm curious how they stack up.



Not enough people have handled both long enough to give a valid opinion on which is better or has benefits over the other.
Link Posted: 3/19/2006 10:55:11 AM EDT
I'm getting sick and tired of clearing this up.

It's the Uranium Q-36 Explosive Space Modulator that will far out-perform any of the knock-offs mentioned here. IT IS CAPABLE OF DESTROYING THE EARTH for Pete's sake.

I hope this is the last time I have to do this.
Link Posted: 3/19/2006 11:01:02 AM EDT
i would just go POF...but you know thats just me
Link Posted: 3/19/2006 11:12:27 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/19/2006 11:12:58 AM EDT by cpt_en_ca]

Originally Posted By astro:
I'm getting sick and tired of clearing this up.

It's the Uranium Q-36 Explosive Space Modulator that will far out-perform any of the knock-offs mentioned here. IT IS CAPABLE OF DESTROYING THE EARTH for Pete's sake.

I hope this is the last time I have to do this.



You are such a POSER, everyone knows the Q-36 was replaced by the P-47 after the Ferengi Interglactic Storm Troopers complained of fouling in the receiver. I read it on the internet, I MUST be true.
Link Posted: 3/19/2006 11:15:15 AM EDT
On a serious note. I am waiting on the SCAR. I hope it actually makes it out.

Link Posted: 3/19/2006 11:32:05 AM EDT
The colt is the only way to go!!
Link Posted: 3/20/2006 2:37:34 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/20/2006 2:39:44 AM EDT by crsbar]
As far as H&K being used in real time, the Colt design is based off their SCAR design that succesfully completed the trials. The HK416 was never subjected to this testing. So the Colt design has already been proven by SOCOM. The FN design was chosen over it. I have yet to see any "real time" evidence of the HK system being used other than by HK advertising. Every operator I have seen on CNN and otherwise in Afganistan and Iraq are carrying Colt M4A1 carbines.

It will be interesting to see over the next couple years the future of piston-driven upper receivers for the AR-platform. Honestly I feel this is a fad that will die out in a couple years. But it will be interesting to see this unravel. All these piston systems are basically the same. The same as piston designs have been for nearly 100 years and it amazes me how company's can claim this as new technology. I will certainly watch with great interest the future of the SCAR program as well as the military employment or lack there of with these piston sytems. Over the last 4 or so years SOCOM has had good experiences with the standard M4A1 and have been pleased with it. Only certain units within SOCOM have bitched about the gun and those are the units that already know what they want it replaced with. Surest way to get new equipmnet is to say yours is garbage and needs to be replaced. I have always found this interesting to see how many diffrent opinions you can get about the M4 performance from people within the same unit. Many times personal prejudices are presented as mechanical facts. Less than reliable information in the extreme.
Link Posted: 3/20/2006 2:56:37 AM EDT

Originally Posted By crsbar:
excerpt--

It will be interesting to see over the next couple years the future of piston-driven upper receivers for the AR-platform. Honestly I feel this is a fad that will die out in a couple years. But it will be interesting to see this unravel.



Curious why you think it will fade away, crsbar?

If there is only one benefit to the piston versions- and that is longer time/rounds between field maintenance, and it has no drawbacks, it would seem a long-term blessing.

So, what drawbacks do piston M16/AR's have?

If there are trade-offs for the 'cleaner running' aspect, then that will be the dilemma.
Link Posted: 3/20/2006 5:24:29 AM EDT
I don't know anything and I can prove it!

I'd get the Colt though. . . . . since someone already bought Han Solos blaster off ebay last week

This thread is stinkin funny!
Link Posted: 3/20/2006 6:29:01 AM EDT
Link Posted: 3/20/2006 6:33:59 AM EDT
WTF is an asymetric warfare group? Is this like that Vern movie where they parachute the snapping turtles in with 'death from above' painted on their shells?


Originally Posted By redfisher:
I noticed the HK 416 comes with (or is available with) a two-stage trigger

The Army is buying some for its Asymmetric Warfare Group........Source

Link Posted: 3/20/2006 6:51:49 AM EDT

i would just go POF...but you know thats just me



+1 on the POF.

I have 2 HK-SL-8's one with the AR conversion and the Piston system is great. Amazing how clean thiese things stay. Now if you want a AR15 looking rifle the POF has proven itself to me. I have been shooting a friends on and off. So far not one problem and I have tried all types of ammo through it. It is just has accurate has any Bushmaster, Aramalite,RRA, Olympic Arms and DPMS. Those are what I have compared it to.
My only problem is that I wish a SIR would fit onto it.
Link Posted: 3/20/2006 7:06:34 AM EDT
SCAR sucks. It's anot user-friendly, and about as ergonomic as a refrigerator. The operators want a 416. The politicians won as usual on the selection of the FN SCAR. The M4 is a well liked and user friendly platofrm for SOF forces but the SOPMOD M4A1's are just getting worn out.

Some US troops deployed in the GWOT are indeed using the 416. Just cause you don't see it on CNN doesn't mean it's not happening.
Link Posted: 3/20/2006 7:10:34 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/20/2006 7:11:12 AM EDT by DocGKR]
Rob_H: Show some respect--AWG has some of our nation's finest warriors; folks who need to know about the unit know...those who don't make ignorant comments.

crsbar: Listen to KevinB and M4Guru--your comments about the HK416 and its use in combat are completely erroneous; try doing using some due dilligence before spreading more internet BS.
Link Posted: 3/20/2006 8:02:28 AM EDT
Link Posted: 3/20/2006 8:58:07 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/20/2006 8:58:51 AM EDT by Ekie]

Originally Posted By KevinB:
I like my M4A1 - but I think Colt missed the boat on this one.



To be fair the M4A1 is what was asked for, not like Colt came up with it on their own and then sold it to them.

Have personally owned several USGI M4/A1 uppers/barrels and some of them did not run worth a crap as is. Unlike all the 20" USGI uppers I have/had/been issued that run like "tops".

Have heard accounts of both the Colt's and the HK piston systems being in the "sand box". This is the same story as the LMT MK18 uppers and barrels though, in that I don't have any documentation or photographs.

Far as guessing which system will become Standard A, think that would require a better crystal ball then mine.
Link Posted: 3/20/2006 9:37:56 AM EDT

Originally Posted By cpt_en_ca:
On a serious note. I am waiting on the SCAR. I hope it actually makes it out.




that makes two of us.

i'm not all that interested in a lot of the new weapons that have come out, and my AR's work very well the way they are. when i want a gas piston, i'll buy a gas piston weapon...


Link Posted: 3/20/2006 9:44:27 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Rob_H:
WTF is an asymetric warfare group? Is this like that Vern movie where they parachute the snapping turtles in with 'death from above' painted on their shells?


Originally Posted By redfisher:
I noticed the HK 416 comes with (or is available with) a two-stage trigger

The Army is buying some for its Asymmetric Warfare Group........Source




Not exactly. (but it is a funny thought)

Asymmetric Warfare Group - LINK to mission statement

and

All you want to know

and then some

Tons of stuff on Asymmetric Warfare
Link Posted: 3/20/2006 4:25:13 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/20/2006 4:27:02 PM EDT by crsbar]

Originally Posted By DocGKR:
Rob_H: Show some respect--AWG has some of our nation's finest warriors; folks who need to know about the unit know...those who don't make ignorant comments.

crsbar: Listen to KevinB and M4Guru--your comments about the HK416 and its use in combat are completely erroneous; try doing using some due dilligence before spreading more internet BS.



Please provide names of units with the authorization to use them? It is quite popular to say that there are in use but I can not tell you by who. I have frequent communications with Crane and the small arms procurment people. Other than HK advertisement I challenge you to provide sources independent of HK with the deployment of these weapons. I could not agree more with not spreading internet BS. THat is why I am asking for facts.
Link Posted: 3/20/2006 6:15:52 PM EDT

Originally Posted By crsbar:

Originally Posted By DocGKR:
Rob_H: Show some respect--AWG has some of our nation's finest warriors; folks who need to know about the unit know...those who don't make ignorant comments.

crsbar: Listen to KevinB and M4Guru--your comments about the HK416 and its use in combat are completely erroneous; try doing using some due dilligence before spreading more internet BS.



Please provide names of units with the authorization to use them? It is quite popular to say that there are in use but I can not tell you by who. I have frequent communications with Crane and the small arms procurment people. Other than HK advertisement I challenge you to provide sources independent of HK with the deployment of these weapons. I could not agree more with not spreading internet BS. THat is why I am asking for facts.



I have personally seen photos of the 416 in use and have also spoken to a Soldier who was given a demo of the 416 by another Army group. Keep in mind that not all weapons certain groups use run through Crane.

Also, as said above, KevinB and M4Guru know of what they speak. Doubt them if you will, but do so at the cost of your own ignorance. Also, do not expect much more info outside of this to surface over on this forum. For numerous reasons, this info is, and should be kept very low key.
Link Posted: 3/20/2006 6:56:40 PM EDT
Some of you people need to wake up and understand forums like this are used by foreign intelligence agencies. Stop handing them shit on a silver platter....

How do I know?

Because I do it for a living, only against them.....

I pull all sorts of shit off PLA and other forums, just like this, except they are a bit smarter and don't share as much info....

yes this is a fun lil place, but there are people watching and listening.....

that's reality.....keep it in mind....
Link Posted: 3/20/2006 7:43:59 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/20/2006 7:44:16 PM EDT by King_of_All_Tyrants]
gunwritr-

Generally, I'd +1 what you're saying, but the fact that the HK416 exists, or that it's deployed is hardly a secret. I see nothing in this thread that's really worth anything to foreigners.

giffmann-

+1 on your last post. I know places that use them, but they have no more reason to make this internet-accessible than your local guard unit makes its armory inventory-accessible. Sorry Crsbar, that's the way it is, so you can believe what you will.

As for the subject at hand - there's lots of good things coming out. The Colt upper, maybe the 416, the SIG 556 and the SCAR. Or I can just stay with what I have (I can only afford to have one system... :( ). Ah, the choices, the choices......
Link Posted: 3/20/2006 8:03:56 PM EDT
crsbar,

Whether you like it or not, it is a FACT that HK416's are being successfully used in combat OCONUS by some U.S. SOF units; these folks include many of my friends and professional colleagues who are very pleased with their issued HK416's. The open source information on one of the organizations was noted above; other end-users have not released that info publicly, so I am certainly not going to discuss it. A couple of pictures have also been previously released showing SOF HK416's OCONUS:


Link Posted: 3/20/2006 8:22:55 PM EDT

The HK416 was never subjected to this testing.


I believe you are completely wrong here. It could be said the 416 has had more testing.
Link Posted: 3/21/2006 2:39:35 AM EDT

Originally Posted By crsbar:

Please provide names of units with the authorization to use them? It is quite popular to say that there are in use but I can not tell you by who. I have frequent communications with Crane and the small arms procurement people. Other than HK advertisement I challenge you to provide sources independent of HK with the deployment of these weapons. I could not agree more with not spreading internet BS. THat is why I am asking for facts.



crsbar.

This link --->HERE - look at August and September 2005 entries although there are others

It lists numerous purchases of Hk416 weapon systems for issue to units. The numbers are not big, but they are there nonetheless.

FWIW: there are dozens of noteworthy .mil purchases of weapons/accessories/ammo listed

But those are other topics

HTH
Link Posted: 3/21/2006 5:44:22 PM EDT
Everybody has there own take on this it seems. Of course people will believe what they want. One thing that will always amaze me is the pepole who claim to have this information say they got it from operators. I wonder why so many people hear totally diffrent stories. I will not argue my beliefs on here with anyone. I know what my research and contacts have come up with and I trust them. I have read all the marketing hype and the articles on the 416, brilliant job. Rumors run rampant. Most of those rumors come out of th "we know but can't tell you" or the secret units with the new gear. I love the cloak and dagger stuff like the next guy. Someone stated Colt piston rifles are being used in the sand box. I find that ineresting since all the guns were returned to Colt, every single one.
Point being believe what you want. Several brands of truth. Just read these posts.

As far as my comment reguarding the Colt design in the SCAR trials, like it or not the 416 did not compete. It was not subjected to SOCOM trials. The reliability data all comes from HK and there reps. Wether it is true or not, who knows. All I know for a fact was wha the Colt Type C SCAR rifle passed all endurence and reliability testing. Only FN and Colt can claim this.

I am not pro or con 416. Personally, I will stick with my standard M4A1. It has never failed me. It fires more than 2000 rounds full auto without malfunctioning and not being cleaned. Good enough for me. Good enough for the DOD.
Link Posted: 3/21/2006 10:10:47 PM EDT
To expand on my comment. HK has had what you can call nearly 2 years of durability testing in theaters of war. Official trial? No. HK gave the military a shitload of them for T and E. When I say shitload, I mean shitload.

Link Posted: 3/21/2006 11:37:52 PM EDT

Originally Posted By redfisher:

Originally Posted By Rob_H:
WTF is an asymetric warfare group? Is this like that Vern movie where they parachute the snapping turtles in with 'death from above' painted on their shells?


Originally Posted By redfisher:
I noticed the HK 416 comes with (or is available with) a two-stage trigger

The Army is buying some for its Asymmetric Warfare Group........Source




Not exactly. (but it is a funny thought)

Asymmetric Warfare Group - LINK to mission statement

and

All you want to know

and then some

Tons of stuff on Asymmetric Warfare



So basically you have to be an old goat before they will even look at you. Sounds like a ticket to medical discharge.
Link Posted: 3/22/2006 12:00:04 AM EDT
I must say that I am glad this toppic came up, I am extremely interested in piston driven AR systems and information about Hk especially has been totaly non existant. I have recently read rumors that Bushmaster, LMT, and Barret are working on pistons and would like to know if anyone can vouch for the validity of any of these statements.
The Hk 416 intrests me alot and it seems that with no new information on any rifle product coming to light in what seems like the last half year or more something must be going on. It can't take a company like Hk too long to make an AR10 style rifle with a piston. So I respectfully ask that if anyone has any information that they can share about anything Hk please do. :D


SCAR sucks. It's anot user-friendly, and about as ergonomic as a refrigerator. The operators want a 416. The politicians won as usual on the selection of the FN SCAR. The M4 is a well liked and user friendly platofrm for SOF forces but the SOPMOD M4A1's are just getting worn out.


This is an interesting statement. I have long considered the ergonomics of the AR platform to be one of its biggest advantages and to hear that the SCAR does not handel as well as an M4 is something I had sortof expected. Can anyone elaborate on the merrits of the FN SCAR or the lack of?

Well, talk on everybody because if there is one thing we need right now it is more information about all of these emerging weapons systems and the developement cycles going on as we speek. :D
Link Posted: 3/22/2006 1:11:12 AM EDT

Originally Posted By GMAN51:
This is an interesting statement. I have long considered the ergonomics of the AR platform to be one of its biggest advantages and to hear that the SCAR does not handel as well as an M4 is something I had sortof expected. Can anyone elaborate on the merrits of the FN SCAR or the lack of?



I'd be interested in this too, because this is the first time i've heard of it, nothing but praise for the ARM so far. It seems like the epitome of battle rifle ergonomics to me.
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