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Posted: 2/19/2006 7:04:13 AM EDT
Rant on.

I just got off the fire department this AM, from another wonder-filled shift in Disneyland.

I have a Colt Accurized Rifle; mine is marked/stamped Elite HBAR though. I bought it years ago for $1040.

1. The barrel: I had the barrel tapered-bore electropolished by BlackStar, because the bore was rough as hell.

2. This is what Colt says, "the Colt Accurized Rifle utilizes an enhanced trigger group for smoother and more consistent trigger pull." This trigger feels no different than a standard AR trigger group that I polished: looks the same too.

3. My lower has a block/wall milled in it, which may keep a Rock River Arms 2-stage trigger (with the larger pins) from fitting. Colt can't make a lower like every other AR15?

4. In addition to the block/wall milled in it, Colt installed an Accuwedge to keep upper and lower wobble to a minimum. You may ask why Colt did this....because the upper and lower fit is NOT TIGHT!

5. The buffer is made of PLASTIC!!!! What the hell this is about, I have no idea.

6. When I bought it, I ordered it through my FFL. When it arrived, the trigger had a sizable chunk gouged out by what appeared to be a grinding wheel (huge marks). I sent it back to Colt for repair. Colt sent me back ANOTHER Elite HBAR, with a different serial number, to my home address, and had it left on my front porch!!!!!!!!! Tell me that this is not an ATF violation!

I think that for $1040, years ago, Colt could have done a better job. Within the last few years, I have seen Colt go from being civilian friendly to civilian un-friendly, prices going through the roof, and quality remaining low.

I am not out to bash Colt, though I am ranting. Specifically, Colt and Winchester are icons of WWI, WWII, Korea, Vietnam, and especially the old American West. I hate to see American icons fall: Colt=civilian un-friendly; Winchester=financial problems. Both these companies made great, high quality firearms for generations. Winchester will no longer make firearms and may even go out of business. Colt appears to be going in the same direction. GM and Ford are in dire straights too. I do not know what things are happening to cause this: labor costs, union entanglement, consumer purchasing traits?

I do see a bright side. Stag/CMT, RRA, and other AR companies are doing great business, and growing. Toyota and Nissan are making cars in the U.S.A., and, from what I've read, pay employees 90%-95% of what Ford and GM pay, with benefits, and have given 60,000 Americans jobs. Whereas, over the same time period, GM and Ford have lost about 60,000 jobs. The article stated that these are approximate numbers. How is it that foreign owned companies can employ Americans at comparable salaries, build cars in America, and sell every single one, while American car companies cannot do the same? I prefer to see American companies thrive in America, and abroad. I also prefer to see companies respond promptly to consumer wants and needs. Apparently, Stag/CMT, Rock River Arms, Bushmaster, to name a few, are doing this.

Rant off. Flame away.
Link Posted: 2/19/2006 7:40:25 AM EDT
My Elite also has a rough bore. I think Colt went cheap on these and used those junk ER Shaw barrels. ER Shaw is the Yugo of barrels.I wish Shilen made AR barrels.
Link Posted: 2/19/2006 8:27:37 AM EDT
Can I ask you fellas a question.

How do your CAR HBAR Elite's SHOOT?

I had one of the early models, and it was the most accurate rifle I have ever owned. It was more accurate than custom sticks that cost me 2-3 times what I paid for the Colt.

I've never even heard of one of these rifles that was not a shooter.

I hear a lot of complaining about politics / cosmetics / business practices, but that doesn't affect the functioning of a weapon.
Link Posted: 2/19/2006 9:39:33 AM EDT
Let me get this straight.....


If it has a rough bore, poor quality control, shitty finish, poor service, etc., but is accurate, thats ok, since its a COLT?

Seems to me that in every thread concerning a gun that has poor QC, a rough bore, shitty finish, but is just as functional, it is always said "you shoulda bought a COLT..................you wouldnt have had all those problems"

Damn, the KoolAid is strong.
Link Posted: 2/19/2006 9:56:15 AM EDT

Originally Posted By patrol120:
Let me get this straight.....


If it has a rough bore, poor quality control, shitty finish, poor service, etc., but is accurate, thats ok, since its a COLT?



Everything except the "rough bore" is subjective, and unless the rifle suffered from poor accuracy, and that loss of accuracy was determined to be caused by a rough bore (borescope?) that isn't a valid statement either. It doesn't matter what brand of rifle it is, the proof's in the shooting.

Link Posted: 2/19/2006 9:59:19 AM EDT
I bought 1, years back. My first AR. $800
Shoots sub MOA with cheap PMC ammo. More accurate than I am.
Trigger was not perfect but was better than a stock trigger. It did have the lightened hammer & springs.
A little polish job and is good.
No other complaints.
I did replace the buffer, because I could and the standard rifle replacement was a little heavier.

Link Posted: 2/19/2006 10:53:15 AM EDT

I sent it back to Colt for repair. Colt sent me back ANOTHER Elite HBAR, with a different serial number, to my home address, and had it left on my front porch!!!!!!!!! Tell me that this is not an ATF violation!



If you, personally and not your gunshop, sent the rifle to Colt's then under .fed law Colt can return it directly to your address. .Fed law requires them to return it to the same address it was shipped from. You can ship, and receive, directly from a gunsmith too, if state/local laws allow.

Thus Colt returning the rifle directly to your home may be perfectly legal. The postman leaving it leaning on the porch may be a Postal Service violation though. And that's a completely different subject.

I have no experience with CAR's/Elite HBAR's. Can't help you much on the rest.
Link Posted: 2/19/2006 11:15:25 AM EDT
I have an early one that shoots sub-moa all day long. Great trigger and perfect fit and finish.
Link Posted: 2/19/2006 11:19:19 AM EDT
If it performs, then it is doing what it is designed to do. Does it perform or not?
Link Posted: 2/19/2006 11:19:26 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/19/2006 11:19:51 AM EDT by twonami]
my bushy didn't need a polish job and it performs great
Link Posted: 2/19/2006 11:20:49 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Bumblebee_Bob:
with a different serial number



It is the different serial number that concerned me then.
Link Posted: 2/19/2006 11:31:01 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Rabbit9:
Can I ask you fellas a question.

How do your CAR HBAR Elite's SHOOT?


3 MOA before sending it to get electropolished.



I had one of the early models, and it was the most accurate rifle I have ever owned. It was more accurate than custom sticks that cost me 2-3 times what I paid for the Colt.

I've never even heard of one of these rifles that was not a shooter.

I hear a lot of complaining about politics / cosmetics / business practices, but that doesn't affect the functioning of a weapon.



I had one of the first Colt AR-15 HBAR rifles when they first came out, with the 1:7 twist. It was a very good rifle, and shot tight groups with 69 grain ammo.

Politics
If I don't like a company's politics, I tend not to buy its products or services. Colt is not civilian friendly.

Cosmetics:
The trigger was gouged to a 45 degree angle that went across the entire trigger's tip. The upper and lower match poorly. These are outright poor craftsmandship and poor quality control.

Business practices: Colt is not civilian friendly.

Don't forget about the completely plastic buffer?
Link Posted: 2/19/2006 11:49:07 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/19/2006 11:58:54 AM EDT by JWCswm]
I've got a Match Target Competition HBAR
with a cheap scope & wolf ammo I plink Quarter size targets off the backstop of the 100 yard range ALL DAY!!
With Match grade (store bought) Ammo This AR is the most accurate rifle I've ever shot!! My shooting friends are amazed how fast I can unload 30rds at 100yds and punch a 1/2 dollar sized hole in a target!! (not with Wolf)
Fit & finish are flawless the feedramps are perfect & look polished and after several THOUSAND rounds the bolt shows very little wear!!!
Link Posted: 2/19/2006 8:24:23 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/20/2006 4:35:26 AM EDT by ChrisM]
I used to work for a FFL/dealer who specialized in Colt rifles. We stocked and sold quite a few of the Colt C.A.R. Elites model 6724 and not once did we get an ugly rifle or any customer complaints. Actually I remember the fit and finish being above average on most if not all. Heck we even took some used ones in on trade at gunshows that were also very pretty. When they sold (which didnt take long) the customers never brought them back or complained. As for the triggers and plastic buffers, well I agree that they certainly are not the nicest available! Anyway, I am only speaking from experience here and dont mean to discredit anybody. I will even acknowledge that out of the thousands of rifles Colt makes every year it is possible that a few "lemons" might slip out. When/if that happens its nice to know Colt will stand behind their product.
Link Posted: 2/19/2006 8:40:32 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/19/2006 8:41:17 PM EDT by dpmmn]

I have a Colt Accurized Rifle; mine is marked/stamped Elite HBAR though. I bought it years ago for $1040.





You just noticed all of this now
Link Posted: 2/20/2006 3:26:04 AM EDT

Originally Posted By dpmmn:

I have a Colt Accurized Rifle; mine is marked/stamped Elite HBAR though. I bought it years ago for $1040.





You just noticed all of this now



How could I have just noticed it now, when I had sent it to BlackStar, after shooting it, after sending it back to Colt for repair? You read, but do not comprehend.

I saw one at a gun show two weeks ago; it exibited the same plastic buffer as mine and the same loose fitting between the upper and lower receivers. Its price tag was $1450. I saw a two LE M4 models in the $1600 range, and one used for $1400. On ALL FOUR RIFLES was installed a PLASTIC trigger guard. I had read several articles lately about American icons going down in financial stability and quality control. Not all fine fine at Colt or Winchester...or GM and Ford, and this has been going on for years. The BOD of Delta screwed the corporation through poor management, and is now taking it out on its employees through continued pay cuts, through the BOD and CEO live well. Winchester did not wake up in time. Colt does not sell to civilians.
Link Posted: 2/20/2006 5:37:19 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/20/2006 5:40:30 AM EDT by tarfu64]
GM & Ford post WWII became the big, bloated Union (I also am a Union guy, BTW) staffed dinosaur, whose business practices have changed little despite a changing market. Same as the large airlines, American, United et al, they too are bloated big-corporation conglomerates which are going tits-up while the upstarts are doing fairly well in comparison; streamlined business practices which can stand the ups and downs of the modern global economy are the hallmarks of Southwest and their ilk.

As for Colt, I'm in the camp of those who drink the Kool-Aid, so it would be pointless to go on from here. You know what I'm gonna say. Agree to disagree.

Besides, have you seen the quality control lately coming out of Seagrave/ALF/E-One and Pierce?

I think you're just angry from picking up drunks, scrotes and pukes all night who are either whining about their bullshit stubbed toe, puking on your uniform or shooting/hacking each other up in the 'hood. I feel for you, Bro, kick the dog and shoot the Colt. You'll feel better!

Link Posted: 2/20/2006 6:31:47 AM EDT

Originally Posted By tarfu64:
GM & Ford post WWII became the big, bloated Union (I also am a Union guy, BTW) staffed dinosaur, whose business practices have changed little despite a changing market. Same as the large airlines, American, United et al, they too are bloated big-corporation conglomerates which are going tits-up while the upstarts are doing fairly well in comparison; streamlined business practices which can stand the ups and downs of the modern global economy are the hallmarks of Southwest and their ilk.

As for Colt, I'm in the camp of those who drink the Kool-Aid, so it would be pointless to go on from here. You know what I'm gonna say. Agree to disagree.

Besides, have you seen the quality control lately coming out of Seagrave/ALF/E-One and Pierce?

I think you're just angry from picking up drunks, scrotes and pukes all night who are either whining about their bullshit stubbed toe, puking on your uniform or shooting/hacking each other up in the 'hood. I feel for you, Bro, kick the dog and shoot the Colt. You'll feel better!




Another point in Southwest's favor is that the company use one type of aircraft. Delta and most of the other airlines use 737, 757, 767, some 777 in the fleet, along with smaller Fockers and a host of others. Having more than one aircraft is a maintenance nightmare, causing costs to go increase.

I still don't see how quality control can let poor fitting assemblies out the door, and as for the use of plastic parts.... I can see how a crappy barrel gets out now and then, because these are not test fired for accuracy before leaving the plant. I bought a Bushmaster XM-177 right after the AWB. It was a pre-ban model, and it also had a plastic trigger guard. Once again... I replaced it with a steel one.

I have two NM Colt 1911s, one made in the early 70's, the other unknown, but probably later: fit, form, and function are flawless. I had a prewar Colt 1911, via an early Argentina military contract: once again, fit, form, function flawless...and this is after its stay in the Argintine military, which shows that high quality endures. When Colt first made the stainless 1911, I bought one: plastic mainsprind housing , interior slide cuts had burrs, barrel lugs marred, machine marks throughout. I sent it to Les Baer when he was in Allentown, PA. He converted it to a race gun, with the only original parts remaining were frame, grips, and slide. He commented that the metal was softer than other stainless he had worked on. 3500 rounds later, it still works very well.

"Besides, have you seen the quality control lately coming out of Seagrave/ALF/E-One and Pierce?"
No, I haven't. I am stationed at the Atlanta Airport riding the ambulance. I get to see our Jags, when they run, and our old Oshkosh crash trucks. We prefer the Oshkosh trucks. Though 20+ years old, they work better than those $1.2 million Jags (K-40): always start, squirt water/foam, and don't leave transmissions and axles on the runways. The downtown tiller-trucks are plagued with cracked frames. My ambulance is based on a Ford VAN chasis with a box. It rides and drive well, but the interior space in the patient compart is tight. Only two medics can fit effectively and work on a patient. Working a cardiac arrest is a nightmare, because there is no room. I can understand going cheap up front, but don't understand going cheap in back with the patient.

"shooting/hacking each other up in the 'hood"
As long as they do it right the first time, to each other, I don't have an issue with it. Humans are the only species that supports its weakest link. That is bit mean-spirited according to those who don't have to deal with the weak links. Atlanta is worse than other cities in the southeast when it comes to low-lifes.
Link Posted: 2/20/2006 7:19:53 AM EDT

That is bit mean-spirited according to those who don't have to deal with the weak links


I couldn't agree more, my good Jake. Can't explain it to those who have not seen or lived it.



Anyway, sorry to hear of the less-than-stellar construction in your Elite HBAR. Probably the reason there's so much $$ being made in the parts aftermarket!

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