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Posted: 2/14/2006 11:44:06 AM EDT
Wolf introduced a brass cased 75 grain Multi-Purpose Tactical .223 load at the SHOT Show. It's being manufactured by Prvi Partizan in Serbia, and is brass cased, boxer primed and features a HPBT Match type bullet. I had a chance to visit the factory and have talked to the head of the design team leading this project. The round is specifically designed to shoot well when fired in a 1-9" twist barrel, and it has a cannelure to prevent bullet set-back during feeding in autoloading weapons. Terminal performance is supposed to be similar to MK262 Mod 1. Although this is not a match grade round, accuracy of 10 shot groups has been good. Test groups were right at (or less than) 1 inch at 100 yards for 10 shots. Muzzle velocity will run at 2,750 fps from a 20 inch barrel. Price is intended to be inexpensive, about the same as their M193 ball. This load was developed to provide MK262 terminal performance at M193 prices. It should be perfect for training, stockpiling and shooting Zombies with......once someone like DocGKR has a look at it hopefully we'll get the thumbs up for self protection too!
Link Posted: 2/14/2006 11:46:58 AM EDT
very interesting....

Thanks for the info.
Link Posted: 2/14/2006 11:46:58 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/14/2006 11:48:36 AM EDT by mongo001]
Wolf Gold Tactical? Is this an oxymoron?!?!?!?!?

While sounding silly with what I know now, it also sounds promising.

Looking forward to the price tag.
Link Posted: 2/14/2006 11:49:05 AM EDT
I'm guessing it's release will be around the same time as their 6.5 since they are coming from the same plant?
Link Posted: 2/14/2006 11:50:21 AM EDT
If it has ballistics comparable to mk262. Is as reliable and is as (relatively) inexpensive as XM193, then this could be very promising...
Link Posted: 2/14/2006 11:59:16 AM EDT
Yeah, Wolf Gold is the name of their brass cased line from Prvi Partizan.

It will be out before the Grendel ammo, as this project came first. The same engineer is leading the design team on the Grendel project as well. So you can expect to be shooting this load before any Grendel ammo is shipped to the US.

I think this load will make a lot of people happy.....as far as accuracy goes, it was specifically intended to be a standard, rather than a match, load from the start. This was to keep costs down and as it was intended for short barrel carbines and not Camp Perry. However, testing of a wide number of projectile designs led Prvi to one for this load as well as a design for use in 1-7" barrels for competition use. So Wolf will probably be selling 75 grain Match bullets for reloaders as well.

This company also produces US Army spec 7.62mm M118 sniper ammunition and 168 grain Match ammo (forget the military designation of this.....)

but it will be cool to have inexpensive 75 grain .223, probably in battlepacks, that you can plink with.......
Link Posted: 2/14/2006 12:02:43 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/14/2006 12:03:00 PM EDT by photoman]

Originally Posted By Gunwritr:
Yeah, Wolf Gold is the name of their brass cased line from Prvi Partizan.

It will be out before the Grendel ammo, as this project came first. The same engineer is leading the design team on the Grendel project as well. So you can expect to be shooting this load before any Grendel ammo is shipped to the US.

I think this load will make a lot of people happy.....as far as accuracy goes, it was specifically intended to be a standard, rather than a match, load from the start. This was to keep costs down and as it was intended for short barrel carbines and not Camp Perry. However, testing of a wide number of projectile designs led Prvi to one for this load as well as a design for use in 1-7" barrels for competition use. So Wolf will probably be selling 75 grain Match bullets for reloaders as well.

This company also produces US Army spec 7.62mm M118 sniper ammunition and 168 grain Match ammo (forget the military designation of this.....)

but it will be cool to have inexpensive 75 grain .223, probably in battlepacks, that you can plink with.......

And if this stuff tests out as a good load for SD use I think wolf may be in the $$$ especially at the price point they are pushing.
Link Posted: 2/14/2006 12:09:15 PM EDT
I'd be tempted to try some. My rifles tear the rims off regular steel cased Wolf and even brass cased South African, but not other brass cased ammo. If they use a decent quality brass this might be a goldmine. MJD
Link Posted: 2/14/2006 12:09:18 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/14/2006 12:10:54 PM EDT by Ekie]
I like the sound of inexpensive heavy ball ammo (anyone remember the IMI 70 grain FMJBT load). Only question I have is what type of powder is used, and what is the port pressure?

Gee, been a long time since we have had inexpensive Yugo ammo huh?
Link Posted: 2/14/2006 12:16:13 PM EDT
Tag for pricing

Even if this is slower than Black Hills, so long as it was cheap... it would make some good training ammo IMHO.
Link Posted: 2/14/2006 12:19:31 PM EDT
dunno about the powder/pressure, but do know it was stressed to the head of the design team that this load was intended for 16 inch AR carbines......


I had a chance to go out to dinner with this Serb designer, three Finns from Lapua and a Brit engineer (former MOD) at SHOT. It was pretty cool as I got them on the topic of terminal performance for military cartridges. The Brit and Finns immediately got into it as the Brit talked about the 5.56 being superior to 7.62x39. The Finns said for their use they felt 7.62x39 AP had proven to be the best in their testing. They went back and forth for a bit and then I said why didn't we let the guy from the country with the recent 7.62x39 experience speak, everyone shut up and looked at the Serb. Kinda funny really..........it was a great dinner and I'm gonna try to get a bunch together again next year. Try to add some Russian and American ammo designers in the mix and have a cool feed where they can sit back and throw stuff back and forth...it was interesting as shit once they got going and they all enjoyed it quite a bit....

sorry for rambling off topic.........
Link Posted: 2/14/2006 12:20:49 PM EDT
Im in, but when? The anticipation is going to be killing me!!
Link Posted: 2/14/2006 12:33:32 PM EDT

Originally Posted By macman37:
Tag for pricing

Even if this is slower than Black Hills, so long as it was cheap... it would make some good training ammo IMHO.



The ammo spec from a 20in barrel as given in the first post is on line with velocities that some folks are getting for TAP ammo.(from another thread currently going on.

Originally Posted By Molon:
Here is some chronograph data for comparison when you have your results. All of my data was obtained using a Colt 20" A2 barrel with a 1:7 twist. Velocities listed are muzzle velocities obtained using Oehler software.

I fired 10 round strings of two different lots each of Hornady red box 75 grain TAP and Hornady 75 grain Match. The listed results are the averages of the two lots for each load.

Hornady 75 grain TAP

average muzzle velocity = 2676 fps
average standard deviation = 20 fps


Hornady 75 grain Match

average muzzle velocity = 2687 fps
average standard deviation = 20 fps




According to the first post the wolf stuff should hit 2750 from a 20in barrel.....

Link Posted: 2/14/2006 12:40:36 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/14/2006 12:46:02 PM EDT by macman37]

Originally Posted By photoman:

Originally Posted By macman37:
Tag for pricing

Even if this is slower than Black Hills, so long as it was cheap... it would make some good training ammo IMHO.



The ammo spec from a 20in barrel as given in the first post is on line with velocities that some folks are getting for TAP ammo.(from another thread currently going on.

Originally Posted By Molon:
Here is some chronograph data for comparison when you have your results. All of my data was obtained using a Colt 20" A2 barrel with a 1:7 twist. Velocities listed are muzzle velocities obtained using Oehler software.

I fired 10 round strings of two different lots each of Hornady red box 75 grain TAP and Hornady 75 grain Match. The listed results are the averages of the two lots for each load.

Hornady 75 grain TAP

average muzzle velocity = 2676 fps
average standard deviation = 20 fps


Hornady 75 grain Match

average muzzle velocity = 2687 fps
average standard deviation = 20 fps




According to the first post the wolf stuff should hit 2750 from a 20in barrel.....




I missed that- thanks for the follow up.

I'm liking this stuff even more now...

PS I love how "Zombies" are getting more and more attention from the gun writers
Link Posted: 2/14/2006 12:45:22 PM EDT
Excellent news and thanks for it!
Link Posted: 2/14/2006 12:46:50 PM EDT
Gunwritr wrote: "Then I said why didn't we let the guy from the country with the recent 7.62x39 experience speak, everyone shut up and looked at the Serb."

And. . . ? Well, what was the guy's opinion on 5.56 versus 7.62x39?

John
Link Posted: 2/14/2006 12:46:58 PM EDT
Wolf's match grade 22LR has been sought after for quite a while...good stuff..
Link Posted: 2/14/2006 12:47:23 PM EDT
Depending on the price of the Gold line overall, I might be in for some. I need to pick up a couple of cases of ammo...



I have a 1 in 9 barrel and I have pretty much overlooked all of the threads regarding the heavy ammo. If this works in a 1 in 9 and is not priced too high, I think they might have a winner!
Link Posted: 2/14/2006 12:53:01 PM EDT
Link Posted: 2/14/2006 12:58:38 PM EDT
tagged
Link Posted: 2/14/2006 1:00:20 PM EDT
Link Posted: 2/14/2006 1:03:57 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 0612Devil:
If it has ballistics comparable to mk262. Is as reliable and is as (relatively) inexpensive as XM193, then this could be very promising...



Isn't Wolf's XM193 close to $200 a thousand?

mark
Link Posted: 2/14/2006 1:33:43 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/14/2006 1:36:42 PM EDT by Stryfe]

Originally Posted By markmcjunkins:

Originally Posted By 0612Devil:
If it has ballistics comparable to mk262. Is as reliable and is as (relatively) inexpensive as XM193, then this could be very promising...



Isn't Wolf's XM193 close to $200 a thousand?

mark


I wish.
SG has it for 240.
Under 200 shipped would be nice.
Ammoman has brass cased ammo for less.
Link Posted: 2/14/2006 2:21:45 PM EDT
Wow..this would seriously rock.
Link Posted: 2/14/2006 2:21:55 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Stryfe:

Originally Posted By markmcjunkins:

Originally Posted By 0612Devil:
If it has ballistics comparable to mk262. Is as reliable and is as (relatively) inexpensive as XM193, then this could be very promising...



Isn't Wolf's XM193 close to $200 a thousand?

mark


I wish.
SG has it for 240.
Under 200 shipped would be nice.
Ammoman has brass cased ammo for less.



Is wolfs XM193 any good?
Link Posted: 2/14/2006 2:33:27 PM EDT
Cool!

If it's good quality and decently priced, it could be my new hunting round out of my 1/7 middy barrel.

WIZZO
Link Posted: 2/14/2006 2:38:43 PM EDT

Originally Posted By markmcjunkins:

Originally Posted By 0612Devil:
If it has ballistics comparable to mk262. Is as reliable and is as (relatively) inexpensive as XM193, then this could be very promising...



Isn't Wolf's XM193 close to $200 a thousand?

mark




I read the thread about this ammo a few days ago and at that time it was still up in the air if this was a typo or if it indeed is M193. Has it been confirmed it M193?
Link Posted: 2/14/2006 2:45:34 PM EDT
Thank you for this thread!

I find it ironic that our former enemies are providing good ammo at a lower cost than our own country can provide. What ever became of the supply and demand thing that worked for decades in the US?

I'll be buying tons of this stuff when it comes out. Fuck our politicians!
Link Posted: 2/14/2006 3:25:14 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/14/2006 3:26:20 PM EDT by jmart]

Originally Posted By Gunwritr:
....75 grain Multi-Purpose Tactical .223 load .... features a HPBT Match type bullet....The round is specifically designed to shoot well when fired in a 1-9" twist barrel....



Did you see the bullet that will be loaded? I'm curious how they are going to ensure compatibility with 1 in 9" twist given that it is a BT design. I could see if they went to a short ogive, FB design, then maybe. I will definitely have to give this a try.
Link Posted: 2/14/2006 3:28:17 PM EDT
Thanks for the heads up! I'd definitely like to see how it stacks up to MK262 Mod1 and if it proves to be good ammo I will be picking some up...
Link Posted: 2/14/2006 3:30:27 PM EDT

Originally Posted By jmart:

Originally Posted By Gunwritr:
....75 grain Multi-Purpose Tactical .223 load .... features a HPBT Match type bullet....The round is specifically designed to shoot well when fired in a 1-9" twist barrel....



Did you see the bullet that will be loaded? I'm curious how they are going to ensure compatibility with 1 in 9" twist given that it is a BT design. I could see if they went to a short ogive, FB design, then maybe. I will definitely have to give this a try.


It's probably a shorter length/blunter ogive than Hornady's 75.

I am very interested in this. I've used Prvi Partizan ammo before (30-06) and it is high quality stuff.
Link Posted: 2/14/2006 3:31:40 PM EDT
Put me in the "definitely interested" line. My M4gery really likes BH Mk262, but I don't need to be flinging match grade bullets down range when doing short-range training. I'll watch the reviews and probably jump on some when it becomes available locally.
Link Posted: 2/14/2006 3:38:20 PM EDT
I will wait to see how it shoots and how it puts the hurt on the jello blocks, but I'm definitely interested.
Link Posted: 2/14/2006 3:41:34 PM EDT

Originally Posted By GLOCKshooter:
I will wait to see how it shoots and how it puts the hurt on the jello blocks, but I'm definitely interested.



Definitely interested.
Link Posted: 2/14/2006 3:43:36 PM EDT
This sounds almost too good to be true, but I am willing to do some beta testing for them
Link Posted: 2/14/2006 4:05:24 PM EDT
Yes, its definitely piqued my curiosty!
Link Posted: 2/14/2006 4:06:11 PM EDT
Their lead designer sat down and came up with a wide assortment of projectile designs weighing from 73-77 grains and tested them. Some shot very well out of a 1-7 and not so well out of a 1-9 inch twist. He kept working until he had a 75 grain projectile which would put 10 rounds into an inch at 100 meters from a 1-9 inch twist barrel. It was a lot of work. I've seen some test targets which were one ragged 10 shot hole. Jacket thickness is similar to a MatchKing. It should frag nicely, but the proof is in the pudding.

Wolf's M193 is US Gov spec military ammo, NOT factory seconds. This is the real deal, new production.

They produce a wide range of military ammunition, including ball, Sniper and Match ammo...hoping Wolf starts selling M118 Sniper ammo here too......

What did the Serb engineer have to say? The Serb Army did extensive testing, including on livestock, and came to the conclusion that 7.62x39mm lead core ammunition was inferior in overall performance to 7.62x39mm steel core ammunition. This is the identical conclusion that the Finnish Army came to. The Serbs then began development of both 5.45 and 5.56 rounds for testing to possibly replace the x39mm. Work on the 5.45 was never completed as the 5.56 was adopted. In his opinion, from their testing the 5.56 was the better cartridge for their needs. It was an interesting conversation, as this was from a engineer's point of view based on their scientific testing. Interesting all the more with all the recent combat experience the Serbian Army has with the 7.62x39mm cartridge. Also interesting to note that they have begun replacing the 7.92x57mm M76 sniper rifles too.......
Link Posted: 2/14/2006 4:34:57 PM EDT
This is the best news to come out of SHOT.
Link Posted: 2/14/2006 4:54:12 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/14/2006 4:54:30 PM EDT by theshootersden]

Originally Posted By Gunwritr:
Their lead designer sat down and came up with a wide assortment of projectile designs weighing from 73-77 grains and tested them. Some shot very well out of a 1-7 and not so well out of a 1-9 inch twist. He kept working until he had a 75 grain projectile which would put 10 rounds into an inch at 100 meters from a 1-9 inch twist barrel. It was a lot of work. I've seen some test targets which were one ragged 10 shot hole. Jacket thickness is similar to a MatchKing. It should frag nicely, but the proof is in the pudding.

Wolf's M193 is US Gov spec military ammo, NOT factory seconds. This is the real deal, new production.

They produce a wide range of military ammunition, including ball, Sniper and Match ammo...hoping Wolf starts selling M118 Sniper ammo here too......

What did the Serb engineer have to say? The Serb Army did extensive testing, including on livestock, and came to the conclusion that 7.62x39mm lead core ammunition was inferior in overall performance to 7.62x39mm steel core ammunition. This is the identical conclusion that the Finnish Army came to. The Serbs then began development of both 5.45 and 5.56 rounds for testing to possibly replace the x39mm. Work on the 5.45 was never completed as the 5.56 was adopted. In his opinion, from their testing the 5.56 was the better cartridge for their needs. It was an interesting conversation, as this was from a engineer's point of view based on their scientific testing. Interesting all the more with all the recent combat experience the Serbian Army has with the 7.62x39mm cartridge. Also interesting to note that they have begun replacing the 7.92x57mm M76 sniper rifles too.......



I was so excited after reading this topic I forgot to tell you thanks for sharing this information with us...

You da man Gunwritr!!
Link Posted: 2/14/2006 5:07:56 PM EDT
i agree, from my point of view this is the best news to come from the shot show. at $200/k they will sell the F out of this stuff.
Link Posted: 2/14/2006 5:20:38 PM EDT
Anyone know 'how' Russian the Wolf group is?....

Since they decided to start selling SAMs to Iran...would Wolf suddenly be relegated be on State Depts.
ban list..?
Link Posted: 2/14/2006 5:21:25 PM EDT
This is the most interesting thing I have heard from SHOT.
If this pans out to be everything you say it is, they are going to be wildly successful.
I, for one, will be spending a paycheck or two straight out of the gate.
Link Posted: 2/14/2006 5:30:58 PM EDT
"Wolf" is not Russian at all.......

Wolf Performance Ammunition is the trade name for Shooting Supplies International, Inc. of California. A father/son company which has done very well.

They import inexpensive steel cased centerfire ammunition from Russia

they import high quality .22 rimfire Match ammunition from Germany

shotshells from Spain

buckshot and slugs from Germany

and now a line of brass cased centerfire ammunition from Serbia

over the years they have steadily expanded out, and today are much more than just "cheap Russian steel cased ammo"

I'm really interested to see how this load shoots.....time will tell

Link Posted: 2/14/2006 5:35:12 PM EDT
WHY ARE THEY NOT MAKING THIS STUFF IN 5.56 PRESSURE FORM?
Link Posted: 2/14/2006 5:41:00 PM EDT
tag for gel tests
Link Posted: 2/14/2006 5:43:25 PM EDT
probably the same reason no one else is offering 75-77 grain 5.56 loads to the general public....

however, please note the velocity.......2,750 fps from a 20 inch barrel...that's pretty close to MK262.......

we'll chrono it when it shows up....
Link Posted: 2/14/2006 5:49:01 PM EDT
David,

If you get some, we will be happy to test it. Thanks.
Link Posted: 2/14/2006 5:58:22 PM EDT
.
Link Posted: 2/14/2006 6:01:54 PM EDT
Doc,

I suggested the folks at Wolf contact you about testing their new .223 75 grain load. Otherwise I will ship you some as soon as I have some production ammunition.

thanks for helping us all out by offering to test it!
Link Posted: 2/14/2006 6:14:31 PM EDT
Well , about Half the Couch Commandoes on this Board have Sworn NOT to shoot
Wolf Ammo in their ARs , so it will probably be a Commercial Flop.

Somebody better tell Wolf.
Link Posted: 2/14/2006 6:16:49 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Gunwritr:
probably the same reason no one else is offering 75-77 grain 5.56 loads to the general public....

however, please note the velocity.......2,750 fps from a 20 inch barrel...that's pretty close to MK262.......

we'll chrono it when it shows up....



And that is???

TS
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