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Posted: 2/14/2006 9:42:51 AM EDT
What does it mean for something to be Non millspec?

Newbie --- I know
Link Posted: 2/14/2006 9:44:49 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/14/2006 9:46:05 AM EDT by ASU1911]
Mil-spec is bullshit. It is something that the internet is obsessed with. The Technical Data Package is what is interesting... and few companies have it. The rest just buy Colt's products and a set of calipers. The TDP contains the drawings of the weapon.

BTW, teflon finishes are not in the TDP, contrary to what a few fourth rate manufacturers claim.
Link Posted: 2/14/2006 9:50:59 AM EDT

Originally Posted By itsme4now:
What does it mean for something to be Non millspec?

Newbie --- I know



"Mil spec" is just a set of standards....see here for more info.

Failing to meet mil-spec may or may not mean anything--it's dependent on your application.
Link Posted: 2/14/2006 9:56:58 AM EDT
Link Posted: 2/14/2006 10:00:37 AM EDT
Teflon
Not just for cooking eggs on.

W00T!
Link Posted: 2/14/2006 11:07:33 AM EDT
lol.... OK, I got it now.

be on the lookout for more newbie Q's as I am on a mission to build an AR for very cheap, hence buying some items used, etc... and need to know what I'm looking at sometimes.

thus far I have a lpk on the way, and a lower to be picked up at the local.

Link Posted: 2/14/2006 12:08:48 PM EDT
Hit the technical forums, BIY, troubleshooting etc.
And remember that if it's cheap there is probably a reason for it. Most of the Industry Partners are safe and won't sell junk. Beware FN surplus parts, and parts labelled Bushmaster that are not directly from Bushmaster if you buy elsewhere.
Link Posted: 2/14/2006 12:42:49 PM EDT
Link Posted: 2/14/2006 1:52:44 PM EDT

Originally Posted By m24shooter:
Beware FN surplus parts



They had a guy at a gun show selling "government contract FN" upper, bolts, etc.
I didn't buy anything because I knew something was fishy.
What and where did these products come from????
Link Posted: 2/14/2006 2:24:18 PM EDT
If it deals with dimensions, then "Mil-Spec" is important; a "non-mil spec" buffer tube may not fit in your lower and may not (probably will not) fit in a standard stock. Pins, springs, etc. should be Mil-Spec for interchangability.

What about finish? If you want a pink rifle, it will certainly not be "Mil-Spec," but if you like it fine. You can even make components pink to match-as long as they fit. See my first paragraph.
Link Posted: 2/14/2006 2:35:05 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Stickman:

Originally Posted By ASU1911:
Mil-spec is bullshit. It is something that the internet is obsessed with.




Thankyou, your rant beats out my rant, which allows me to sit here and smile. Now I can go back to looking for pictures to post, or something else that won't get me irrate....



HAHAHAHa
Link Posted: 2/14/2006 2:43:41 PM EDT

Originally Posted By GHPorter:
If it deals with dimensions, then "Mil-Spec" is important; a "non-mil spec" buffer tube may not fit in your lower and may not (probably will not) fit in a standard stock. Pins, springs, etc. should be Mil-Spec for interchangability.

What about finish? If you want a pink rifle, it will certainly not be "Mil-Spec," but if you like it fine. You can even make components pink to match-as long as they fit. See my first paragraph.



The TDP refers to, among other things, exactly what tolerances should be used, and the dimensions of parts. There are a lot of parts that are not "mil-spec" or TDP compliant that are just fine. For instance, every Noveske barrel, piston system, monolithic rail, single heat shield M4 handguard, A1 sight with an A2 post etc is non-compliant, but works well.

There are some new finishes on the way that far exceed the finishes listed in the TDP, a fact which excites me greatly.
Link Posted: 2/14/2006 2:48:55 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:

Originally Posted By GHPorter:
If it deals with dimensions, then "Mil-Spec" is important; a "non-mil spec" buffer tube may not fit in your lower and may not (probably will not) fit in a standard stock. Pins, springs, etc. should be Mil-Spec for interchangability.

What about finish? If you want a pink rifle, it will certainly not be "Mil-Spec," but if you like it fine. You can even make components pink to match-as long as they fit. See my first paragraph.



The TDP refers to, among other things, exactly what tolerances should be used, and the dimensions of parts. There are a lot of parts that are not "mil-spec" or TDP compliant that are just fine. For instance, every Noveske barrel, piston system, monolithic rail, single heat shield M4 handguard, A1 sight with an A2 post etc is non-compliant, but works well.

There are some new finishes on the way that far exceed the finishes listed in the TDP, a fact which excites me greatly.

Excellent points. But still, if you want something integral (like the buffer tube I mentioned) it is far more likely to if it's advertised as "Mil-Spec." Of course if it is or not is another matter. Is anything from Hesse Mil-Spec?
Link Posted: 2/14/2006 2:59:03 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/14/2006 2:59:51 PM EDT by Hylton]
If your gun is non mill-spec you run the risk of having your AR fail whilst engaged in a heated firefight with a paper target at the local rifle range, you just cant trust your life to a non-mill spec battle rifle now days
Link Posted: 2/14/2006 3:04:49 PM EDT
That is very good reasoning. Some parts are more critical to functioning than others.
Link Posted: 2/14/2006 3:11:57 PM EDT

Originally Posted By edwin247:

Originally Posted By m24shooter:
Beware FN surplus parts



They had a guy at a gun show selling "government contract FN" upper, bolts, etc.
I didn't buy anything because I knew something was fishy.
What and where did these products come from????


In short, Tweak (IIRC) got a letter from FN that basically said any parts that are claimed to be FN in the civilian market are either not FN, or stolen. Part of FNs agreement is that they can only produce parts for the .gov.
On the other hand, some people will sell parts as FN parts, but then say that they are produced by the same casting firms that make parts FOR FN if pressed.
Link Posted: 2/14/2006 4:17:56 PM EDT
well...

ah forget it, I am learning.
Link Posted: 2/14/2006 5:14:46 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/14/2006 5:15:04 PM EDT by BravoCompanyUSA]
Link Posted: 2/14/2006 5:40:28 PM EDT
Bravo, that's one of the most well-thought-out and intelligent ARFcom posts ever. Thank you for your reasonable analysis.
Link Posted: 2/15/2006 12:29:25 AM EDT
Link Posted: 2/15/2006 3:38:19 AM EDT
Tag so I can steal, um, I mean, copy, I mean, refer to that post.
Link Posted: 2/15/2006 4:14:50 AM EDT

Originally Posted By BravoCompanyUSA:
To describe a Mil-Spec stock, is to say that the dimensions are compatible with Colt stocks as opposed to the large OD of various commercial units.



I believe this is where the original poster's question comes from as he is considering purchasing a used commercial stock from me.

Therefore to answer the posters question, commercial tubes are larger in "diameter" for lack of a better term then the "mil-spec" standard Colt/LMT/Vltor/Stag tubes. Therefore these stocks will not fit that buffer tube. If you want to upgrade to these stocks in the future you will need a "mil-spec" buffer tube or purchase a complete unit.
Link Posted: 2/15/2006 4:41:51 AM EDT
Paul's post should be tacked!
Link Posted: 2/15/2006 4:55:50 AM EDT
Paul,

Excellent post and right on the money... As you stated, the TDP is what really gets down to brass tacks, describing each detail of manufacturing, dimensions, heat treating, surface treatment, etc, etc -- but even at that, it often simply refers to a MilSpec, such as "part will be finished IAW Mil-blah-blah"

The MilSpec can actually be pretty "loose" -- I know you have done a lot research into barrel material and probably found out that the MilSpec for an M4 barrel is mostle about being "round bar stock, 2" or less in diameter" -- what it is made of can be any 4150 or CMV ordnance grade steel. So we grab the aerospace material and alloy manual and look up 4150 Ord steel, to see that it give a pretty wide range of what the content of the stell can be!

So the deal here is that I could make up three M4 barrels, all from different steel and all three would be "MilSPec", but the pisser is that none of them would meet that requirements of the TDP!

I think you summed it up best in that for most end users, MilSpec should indicate a part that is an accepptable field replacement for the military issue weapon:


I feel the honest contemporary definition of Mil-Spec in the context in which we use it would be “Mil-Spec” is short for “Mil-Spec feature”.
Some examples:
To describe a Mil-Spec trigger pin or take down pins, is to say they are the standardized and not the oversized type.
To describe a Mil-Spec front sight, is to say that it is forged and a taller “F” to be barreled to a flattop and the shorter to be barreled to an A2 upper.
To describe a Mil-Spec M4 profile barrel, is to say that it is 4150, chrome lined, and 1/7 twist. Or even to say regarding chrome moly/chrome lined vs. chrome moly, where chrome lining is Mil-Spec.
To describe a Mil-Spec stock, is to say that the dimensions are compatible with Colt stocks as opposed to the large OD of various commercial units.

Link Posted: 2/15/2006 5:26:09 AM EDT
Fantastic Post Bravo (Paul). Nobody mentioned that Mil-Spec Parts drive Armchair Commandos crazy. Like I have this urge to swap the stock on my Bushy just to get as many Mil-Spec *parts* as I can.

Mil-spec also isn't the best thing since sliced bread. Gen2 followers - can I get an amen? Moly-Resin, DuraCoat, Birdsong - mm hmm das right.
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