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Posted: 2/13/2006 7:55:35 PM EDT


Gilbert Small Arms Range in Northern VA got in two of the new S&W AR's today and I got to take a good look at the tactical version.

I must say this is one of the best, maybe the best, out of the box AR I have ever seen. Troy 10" rail, Troy folding sights and outstanding fit and finish on the whole gun. balance was great, it handled well to say the least. For those who nay sayed S&W doing an AR, you were wrong, this gun is outstanding.

Pistol grip and stock are regular mil spec types, nothing special but functional. I rather like the fact that they didn't put a more expensive stock on it given that if I bought one I'd replace it with an M93B from Mag Pul anyway. I suspect a lot of Mag Pul and Vltar stocks will be retro fit to these carbines. Add a MIAD or Tango Down pistol grip and it's ready to go.

And before some smart ass asks, yes, the Troy sights were vertical with no canting. A mil spec recivier keeps them that way.

The Tactical rifle retails for $1700 but expect to see prices in the $1500 - $1600 range at most shops. All of us looking at it felt it was a real bargin for the money. Gilberts has it for $1549.00.

The standard rifle looked good, similar to a Colt but I didn't really look at it that closely. It was priced between a Colt and Bushmaster.

Link Posted: 2/13/2006 7:58:57 PM EDT
thats a pretty stiff price tag.....
Link Posted: 2/13/2006 8:07:17 PM EDT

Originally Posted By ALPHAGHOST:
thats a pretty stiff price tag.....



+1

Does anyone have a pic?
Link Posted: 2/13/2006 8:08:17 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/13/2006 8:09:40 PM EDT by ALPHA9000]

Originally Posted By ALPHAGHOST:
thats a pretty stiff price tag.....



It is but you need to add up the cost of the premium add-ons they have.
Link Posted: 2/13/2006 9:04:49 PM EDT

Originally Posted By BSheppard:

Originally Posted By ALPHAGHOST:
thats a pretty stiff price tag.....



+1

Does anyone have a pic?




Hmmm.... Smith & Wesson, Smith & Wesson. They might have a website.
M&P 15T
Link Posted: 2/13/2006 9:16:07 PM EDT
As others have said before me on this same topic: SSDD
Link Posted: 2/13/2006 9:29:22 PM EDT
It costs lots of money to have your logo engraved on every single part of a rifle. That is where most of the cost must be coming from.
Link Posted: 2/13/2006 9:33:36 PM EDT

Originally Posted By FlyingFive0:
It costs lots of money to have your logo engraved on every single part of a rifle. That is where most of the cost must be coming from.



especially the small parts...

hey! Nanobots!

27 of them, guided by lasers... operating in zero gravity and running on program files downloaded from SipraNET!
Link Posted: 2/13/2006 9:36:53 PM EDT
This thread has pics on page 4. Nothing to be overly impressed with IMHO.
www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=118&t=267092
Link Posted: 2/13/2006 10:14:25 PM EDT
What is S&W coming too? They jumped on the 1911 band wagon (albeit almost 90 years later) and now they are jumping on the AR band wagon about 40 years later. Maybe if they INNOVATE instead of DUPLICATE.......
Link Posted: 2/13/2006 10:16:28 PM EDT
Glock spanked them several years ago didn't they? Over that ugly ass Sigma?
Link Posted: 2/13/2006 10:17:59 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Scollins:
What is S&W coming too? They jumped on the 1911 band wagon (albeit almost 90 years later) and now they are jumping on the AR band wagon about 40 years later. Maybe if they INNOVATE instead of DUPLICATE.......



Thats kind of a dumbass statement. How many companies have "Duplicated" the 1911 and AR15? A HELL of a lot. S&W is just one in a long line.
Link Posted: 2/13/2006 10:44:11 PM EDT
Man, for that price I could build 3 AR's!!!!

Where does S&W get off thinking their Wilson or Barrett or something?
Link Posted: 2/13/2006 10:52:31 PM EDT
With Colt making a piston it really raises the bar in AR15's. The standard as we know it will change dramatically in the next few months.

S&W is too little and too late in the game as far as I am concerned.

I will either get a Colt 1020 or SIG 556 in the 4th quarter
Link Posted: 2/13/2006 10:57:42 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/13/2006 11:00:33 PM EDT by ElCamino]

Originally Posted By CK:
As others have said before me on this same topic: SSDD



Pretty much.

Neat and all, but the price is too high and there are already well-established companies in this field with good reputations.

For that price I'd be more inclined to get a Colt LE rifle. ETA: And use the extra money to throw on an EOTech.
Link Posted: 2/14/2006 1:51:50 AM EDT
+1 for what was said above. I am a fan of Colt's and I would buy a S&W just for the novelty factor. But for 1500 I would buy another Colt.

Max
Link Posted: 2/14/2006 2:43:36 AM EDT

Originally Posted By maxell27:
+1 for what was said above. I am a fan of Colt's and I would buy a S&W just for the novelty factor. But for 1500 I would buy another Colt.

Max



max.......

Hopefully we will be able to buy the Colt complete upper (only) with carrier and the new bolt.

I'd say the S&W is a good choice for anyone considering a Bushmaster RRA, or Armalite AR15. SW is a much larger company and should have a distinct advantage in the Customer Service, and warranty work areas.

Link Posted: 2/14/2006 4:16:20 AM EDT
I just don't get where all these people say the rifle it "too expensive".

Maybe you guys are getting premium parts for dirt cheap in the black market.

I have tried to duplicate something like an M&P15 using parts of similar quality as what S&W uses, and for the life of me I cannot come up that much cheaper.
Link Posted: 2/14/2006 6:04:51 AM EDT

Originally Posted By redfisher:

Originally Posted By maxell27:
+1 for what was said above. I am a fan of Colt's and I would buy a S&W just for the novelty factor. But for 1500 I would buy another Colt.

Max



max.......

Hopefully we will be able to buy the Colt complete upper (only) with carrier and the new bolt.

I'd say the S&W is a good choice for anyone considering a Bushmaster RRA, or Armalite AR15. SW is a much larger company and should have a distinct advantage in the Customer Service, and warranty work areas.




Why would being a large company make them any better at customer service and warranty? Not sure I agree with that - customer service is related to attitude, and most warranty work has to be shipped back anyway (and right now Bushmaster, for example, has a lot more experience building ARs)

I have no doubt that S&W are building a very high-quality AR, but I personally see no reason to pay a premium for it over Bushmaster, RRA, etc. , and while a particular rail option might be great, the whole point (to me) of the modularity and customizability of the AR is that I'll pick my options, not go wtih an expensive fixed set-up by a manufacturer.
Link Posted: 2/14/2006 6:53:23 AM EDT

What is S&W coming too? They jumped on the 1911 band wagon (albeit almost 90 years later) and now they are jumping on the AR band wagon about 40 years later. Maybe if they INNOVATE instead of DUPLICATE.......




Smith jumped on the 1911 bandwagon, and in turn, now produces what is considered to be the very best out of the box basic 1911 made today, for a very good price.

From what i can tell, 1500 isnt too bad a price for the gun you get. Price a Bushie, or RRA for that matter, and add the parts included, and see what the total is. Now, try it with a Colt, and tell me how expensive it is.
Link Posted: 2/14/2006 7:33:38 AM EDT

Originally Posted By patrol120:

What is S&W coming too? They jumped on the 1911 band wagon (albeit almost 90 years later) and now they are jumping on the AR band wagon about 40 years later. Maybe if they INNOVATE instead of DUPLICATE.......




Smith jumped on the 1911 bandwagon, and in turn, now produces what is considered to be the very best out of the box basic 1911 made today, for a very good price.

From what i can tell, 1500 isnt too bad a price for the gun you get. Price a Bushie, or RRA for that matter, and add the parts included, and see what the total is. Now, try it with a Colt, and tell me how expensive it is.



Are you serious?

I'd watch those superlatives. It isn't a bad 1911, but far be it from the best.
Link Posted: 2/14/2006 7:33:43 AM EDT

Originally Posted By EvilBert:

Gilbert Small Arms Range in Northern VA got in two of the new S&W AR's today and I got to take a good look at the tactical version.

I must say this is one of the best, maybe the best, out of the box AR I have ever seen. Troy 10" rail, Troy folding sights and outstanding fit and finish on the whole gun. balance was great, it handled well to say the least. For those who nay sayed S&W doing an AR, you were wrong, this gun is outstanding.

Pistol grip and stock are regular mil spec types, nothing special but functional. I rather like the fact that they didn't put a more expensive stock on it given that if I bought one I'd replace it with an M93B from Mag Pul anyway. I suspect a lot of Mag Pul and Vltar stocks will be retro fit to these carbines. Add a MIAD or Tango Down pistol grip and it's ready to go.

And before some smart ass asks, yes, the Troy sights were vertical with no canting. A mil spec recivier keeps them that way.

The Tactical rifle retails for $1700 but expect to see prices in the $1500 - $1600 range at most shops. All of us looking at it felt it was a real bargin for the money. Gilberts has it for $1549.00.

The standard rifle looked good, similar to a Colt but I didn't really look at it that closely. It was priced between a Colt and Bushmaster.




Did you spek with Ernie while there? He is an extremely nice guy (he's also the owner), he has a mustache and he's bald.
Link Posted: 2/14/2006 7:37:26 AM EDT

Originally Posted By ALPHA9000:

Originally Posted By ALPHAGHOST:
thats a pretty stiff price tag.....



It is but you need to add up the cost of the premium add-ons they have.




That would require a reality check, and for the many here to jump off the "hate wagon" in order to realize this....
Link Posted: 2/14/2006 7:39:09 AM EDT

Originally Posted By DK-Prof:

Originally Posted By redfisher:

Originally Posted By maxell27:
+1 for what was said above. I am a fan of Colt's and I would buy a S&W just for the novelty factor. But for 1500 I would buy another Colt.

Max



max.......

Hopefully we will be able to buy the Colt complete upper (only) with carrier and the new bolt.

I'd say the S&W is a good choice for anyone considering a Bushmaster RRA, or Armalite AR15. SW is a much larger company and should have a distinct advantage in the Customer Service, and warranty work areas.




Why would being a large company make them any better at customer service and warranty? Not sure I agree with that - [snip].



Yeah, Re:H&K
Link Posted: 2/14/2006 7:41:10 AM EDT

Originally Posted By ALPHAGHOST:
thats a pretty stiff price tag.....




A big mistake as well for S&W, anyone dropping that much on a new AR will more then likely go with Colt.
Link Posted: 2/14/2006 7:50:24 AM EDT
The SW1911 is , in the 1911 world, generally considered the best PRODUCTION, Basic , out of the box 1911, as far as reliability, fit and finish, and price is ocncerned. The base model competes with such guns as the Colt XSE, the Kimber Custom II, and the Springer 1911A1 Mil Spec Loaded. Any time a person askes about what 1911 is fit for duty use, right out of the box, as is, the SW1911 is recommended.

People have tastes, and some will like certain guns over others, but it is undeniable that the SW1911 is the most consistently reliable 1911 available from a mass production standpoint.
Link Posted: 2/14/2006 7:54:00 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/14/2006 8:07:05 AM EDT by Stickman]
Link Posted: 2/14/2006 8:04:47 AM EDT
OH MY GOD...you mean the Smith is NOT more expensive thanany other normal AR? Wow, thats a revelation.....

MSRP is nothing...means nothing, is nothing.
Link Posted: 2/14/2006 8:07:53 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/14/2006 8:08:21 AM EDT by Hylton]
I didn’t bother looking at the MSRP, the M4A3 should go for around $880-$995 then.
Link Posted: 2/14/2006 8:08:36 AM EDT
Link Posted: 2/14/2006 8:10:52 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Stickman:

Originally Posted By patrol120:
OH MY GOD...you mean the Smith is NOT more expensive thanany other normal AR? Wow, thats a revelation.....

MSRP is nothing...means nothing, is nothing.




I know, its crazy talk, but I haven't had any coffee yet, so I can't be held accountable for my postings.

I call this my Juan Valdez Defense.



Stop it you! With posts like these you liable to make some posters realize that it's comparitivly priced!
Link Posted: 2/14/2006 8:15:21 AM EDT
The fact is, Smith would not dive headfirst into the AR market without a competitive product. They ar ein business to sell guns, and no one buys guns that arent competitive to any degree. Even the Sigma is a money maker for Smith, and hasbeen since day one, or it would not be in production.

I predict this gun will be a HUGE moneymaker for the boys at Smith, and I wish them the best.
Link Posted: 2/14/2006 8:54:47 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Stickman:
Breaking it down into pictures for the visual people, look at the prices. The Bushmaster is using YHM parts and is priced higher. While there are differences between them, Troy is considered by most of us to be a upper end unit.

Look up MSRP if you aren't familiar with the term.


S&W basic M4 (A3) carbine MSRP- $1200

www.smith-wesson.com/wcsstore/SmWesson/upload/images/firearms/811000_large.jpg

Bushmaster basic M4 (A3) carbine MSRP- $ 1230

www.bushmaster.com/le/LE-Patrolman-Carb-A2-Blue.jpg

S&W M4 loaded using Troy components MSRP- $1700

www.smith-wesson.com/wcsstore/SmWesson/upload/images/firearms/811001_large.jpg


Bushmaster loaded using YHM components MSRP- $1745
www.bushmaster.com/shopping/weapons/Images/pcwvml16f.jpg



STOP!!!!

You are injecting facts into an emotional discussion!!!

HALT!!! ACHTUNG!!!!!!!!!!!! VERBOTEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Good job.
Link Posted: 2/14/2006 9:15:57 AM EDT

Originally Posted By SWO_daddy:

Originally Posted By Stickman:
Breaking it down into pictures for the visual people, look at the prices. The Bushmaster is using YHM parts and is priced higher. While there are differences between them, Troy is considered by most of us to be a upper end unit.

Look up MSRP if you aren't familiar with the term.


S&W basic M4 (A3) carbine MSRP- $1200

www.smith-wesson.com/wcsstore/SmWesson/upload/images/firearms/811000_large.jpg

Bushmaster basic M4 (A3) carbine MSRP- $ 1230

www.bushmaster.com/le/LE-Patrolman-Carb-A2-Blue.jpg

S&W M4 loaded using Troy components MSRP- $1700

www.smith-wesson.com/wcsstore/SmWesson/upload/images/firearms/811001_large.jpg


Bushmaster loaded using YHM components MSRP- $1745
www.bushmaster.com/shopping/weapons/Images/pcwvml16f.jpg



STOP!!!!

You are injecting facts into an emotional discussion!!!

HALT!!! ACHTUNG!!!!!!!!!!!! VERBOTEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Good job.



Well, hell - if y'all are going to bring facts, then we'll have nothing to argue about.
Link Posted: 2/14/2006 10:33:12 AM EDT
S&W, the cutting edge of innovation. Maybe they will bring out an M1 Carbine next. Here is their latest product

M&P Tactical Bar-B-Q





Link Posted: 2/14/2006 5:09:39 PM EDT

Originally Posted By monkeyman:
S&W, the cutting edge of innovation. Maybe they will bring out an M1 Carbine next. Here is their latest product

M&P Tactical Bar-B-Q

img.photobucket.com/albums/v489/mac66/357mag_grill.jpg






And then next we could shoot for the M&P Shit Can seat covered with S&W logos. Lets keep our standards high guys, others can make a shitter seat, but we can make it better. M&P......... a name you can (shit can) trust!
Link Posted: 2/15/2006 6:34:17 AM EDT
Well, I am sure S&W won't sneer at civilian sales; but it is pretty obvious they are trying to lock up law enforcement contracts with these offerings. Let's look at the recent products they have brought out:

A high-end 1911
A polymer framed "safe-action" service pistol
AR15
Shotgun

Why it is almost like they are trying to compete in the law enforcement market by making it convenient for departments to do one-stop shopping for all their firearms/armory needs. No more having the armorer certified by 4-5 different manufacturers. You can get everything from SWAT to patrol at a single location. Next thing I expect to see from S&W is a precision bolt gun.

For that matter, why do you think Armalite is introducing a pistol and a shotgun to their lineup?
Link Posted: 2/15/2006 11:48:12 AM EDT

Originally Posted By patrol120:
The SW1911 is , in the 1911 world, generally considered the best PRODUCTION, Basic , out of the box 1911, as far as reliability, fit and finish, and price is ocncerned. The base model competes with such guns as the Colt XSE, the Kimber Custom II, and the Springer 1911A1 Mil Spec Loaded. Any time a person askes about what 1911 is fit for duty use, right out of the box, as is, the SW1911 is recommended.



Absolutely. The SW1911 is the nicest production basic pistol... Best fit and finish, Wolff springs, Texas Armament Match hammer and trigger, recoil guide rod, etc... They spared no expense.
Link Posted: 2/15/2006 12:10:30 PM EDT

Originally Posted By monkeyman:
S&W, the cutting edge of innovation. Maybe they will bring out an M1 Carbine next. Here is their latest product

M&P Tactical Bar-B-Q

img.photobucket.com/albums/v489/mac66/357mag_grill.jpg




Can you really call it a tactical BBQ though? Where is the picatinny rail utensil rack?
Link Posted: 2/15/2006 12:27:34 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/15/2006 12:37:23 PM EDT by JeepDriver]
Stag Arms M4

MSRP $949

It's the same gun. Stag is building the Smith uppers and lowers.



It's amazing what you hear sitting in the Vegas Air Port on the Monday morning after SHOT show.
Link Posted: 2/16/2006 4:50:47 AM EDT
I'm not sold on it...

Do you think they could have engraved, painted, or silkscreened the S&W logo, M&P logo, and any other marking in any more places on the weapon? WTF? I know it is a S&W folks. Geez! Honestly, that is the biggest turn off for me about the weapon! I guess I should consider it fortunate that they didn't install a self-powered neon sign that flashes "S&W M&P AR-15".

That's my $0.02.
Link Posted: 2/16/2006 4:54:52 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/16/2006 4:55:38 AM EDT by DonD]

Originally Posted By Moe-Ron:

Originally Posted By BSheppard:

Originally Posted By ALPHAGHOST:
thats a pretty stiff price tag.....



+1

Does anyone have a pic?




Hmmm.... Smith & Wesson, Smith & Wesson. They might have a website.
M&P 15T



Link Posted: 2/16/2006 4:58:01 AM EDT
same shit! nothing different.............
Link Posted: 2/16/2006 5:02:22 AM EDT

Originally Posted By JeepDriver:
Stag Arms M4

MSRP $949

It's the same gun. Stag is building the Smith uppers and lowers.

www.stagarms.com/cart/images/stag_arms_model1big.gif

It's amazing what you hear sitting in the Vegas Air Port on the Monday morning after SHOT show.



So someome else is building their uppers and lowers, no surprise there. What were you expecting?
Most manufactures are parts assemblers.
Link Posted: 2/16/2006 5:04:59 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/16/2006 5:06:35 AM EDT by Yojimbo]
I've also heard rumors tha the S&W AR is basically a CMT/Stag with the S&W logo. Is anyone able confirm or deny this?

If so this makes the M&P AR a high quality product and the fact that they are using Troy accessories shows that someone knows what they are doing.

Now they just need to get some 1/7, mid-length carbines...
Link Posted: 2/16/2006 5:10:41 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Yojimbo:
I've also heard rumors tha the S&W AR is basically a CMT/Stag with the S&W logo. Is anyone able confirm or deny this?

If so this makes the M&P AR a high quality product and the fact that they are using Troy accessories shows that someone knows what they are doing.

Now they just need to get some 1/7, mid-length carbines...



This was posted some time ago actually, the contract from S&W is with CMT/Stag... there is some wiggle room for odd parts to make sure that they can keep up with delivery numbers, but the other sources are top name stuff, no cutting corners.

S&W fingered Steve Troys products and you will see them in use with the S&W logo.
Link Posted: 2/16/2006 5:14:26 AM EDT

Originally Posted By JeepDriver:
Stag Arms M4

MSRP $949

It's the same gun. Stag is building the Smith uppers and lowers.

www.stagarms.com/cart/images/stag_arms_model1big.gif

It's amazing what you hear sitting in the Vegas Air Port on the Monday morning after SHOT show.



What did you hear at the LVAP? The MSRP for Stag Arms M4?

I hate to tell you this, but the teams I am with travel a LOT and several of the guys actually make a game out of talking some pretty out there shit while sitting around terminals... knowing that people are listening in -- While I do trust that the MSRP you posted is true, don't believe eveything you (over) hear
Link Posted: 2/16/2006 7:12:19 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Yojimbo:
I've also heard rumors tha the S&W AR is basically a CMT/Stag with the S&W logo. Is anyone able confirm or deny this?

If so this makes the M&P AR a high quality product and the fact that they are using Troy accessories shows that someone knows what they are doing.

Now they just need to get some 1/7, mid-length carbines...



+1
Link Posted: 2/16/2006 10:01:26 AM EDT
S&W make outstanding guns!

I love my 640/649/637-1 great for carry !!

made the First USA D/A and D/A auto Hi cap 9mm

Dont get me wrong I like my Combat Elite and my P229

I wish they wouldnt sell there name to everyone how pays!

Like Taylor Cuterly Army Issue switch blade etc!

Microtech would of been nice or MOD
Link Posted: 2/16/2006 10:18:19 AM EDT
The funniest thing is that in the March 2006 issue of Guns and Ammo, the Standard M&P 15 outshot the Tactical M&P 15. Assuming the author used sandbags or some type of rest, you would figure the Standard would have larger groups. Unless of course, Free Floating only prevents the POI shift from the pressure affecting barrel harmonics and that the inherent precision remains the same (grouping capability)?
Link Posted: 2/16/2006 1:31:00 PM EDT

Originally Posted By metroplex:
The funniest thing is that in the March 2006 issue of Guns and Ammo, the Standard M&P 15 outshot the Tactical M&P 15. Assuming the author used sandbags or some type of rest, you would figure the Standard would have larger groups. Unless of course, Free Floating only prevents the POI shift from the pressure affecting barrel harmonics and that the inherent precision remains the same (grouping capability)?



Go back and see what optics he used on each and that will explain the difference. He did not test them evenly.
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