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Posted: 2/12/2006 3:36:32 PM EDT
I was looking with the search and couldn't find what I was looking for. I'm looking at getting a kit for my first build but I want it to be like the A2 that I shot with in basic training except with a different buttstock and a shorter barrel. So I got a few questions. What twist rate does the military rifle have?, does the military rifles have chrome lined anything, what about the bolt carrier? Whats with the different kinds of charging handles? If I were to just order a kit with all the default options would that be most like a military rifle? Only reason that I want an AR to be as close as possible to a militray grade rifle is because I never had any problems with my m16. It never jammed the whole time I used it. and I already know how to take it aprat and clean it. Any help would be appreciated.

Thanks,
Josh
Link Posted: 2/12/2006 3:40:48 PM EDT
http://groups.msn.com/TheMarylandAR15ShootersSite/_homepage.msnw?pgmarket=en-us


Should answer a lot of your questions
Link Posted: 2/12/2006 3:44:56 PM EDT
If you want something pretty close to what is .gov issue, you are gonna want a barrel that is chrome lined, 1/7 twist, and gov't. profile on an upper of your choosing (either a flat top or A2). Lower will just be plain jane with an A2 buttstock. Not sure what you mean by wanting a shorter stock and shorter barrel. Is that mean you want something like an M4? Problem with a lot of the kits out there is that it will be tougher to find a 1/7 twist barrel (most are 1/9, which may be fine for you) and the gov't. profile (most are heavy barrels). I would honetly either just by a factory rifle (a Bushmaster 20") or piece it together yourself so you can get everything you want (something the kits might not give you). I am sure others will be along to offer advice.
Link Posted: 2/12/2006 3:53:11 PM EDT
Try Bravo Company. I bought my 20" A2 1/7 gov profile upper from them-I'm very satisfied. I don't remember ever seeing a chrome lined M16 bolt carrier in the .mil, but this upper comes with one. A kit with all the "default options" would make the most accurate clone of a basic training rifle.
Link Posted: 2/12/2006 4:56:32 PM EDT
I wanted the same thing. I just wanted to buy mine complete.
I went with the Bushmaster XM-15A2. Except for the slightly looser twist rate of 1 in 9, and not having a burst selection. it is the same rifle I carried in Korea.
You may want to buy your upper from Bushmaster and put any furniture you want on your lower.
Link Posted: 2/12/2006 5:53:33 PM EDT

Originally Posted By firefinder:
I wanted the same thing. I just wanted to buy mine complete.
I went with the Bushmaster XM-15A2. Except for the slightly looser twist rate of 1 in 9, and not having a burst selection. it is the same rifle I carried in Korea.
You may want to buy your upper from Bushmaster and put any furniture you want on your lower.


Barrel profile is not the same.
Link Posted: 2/12/2006 5:54:52 PM EDT

Originally Posted By -Shaggs-:I want it to be like the A2 that I shot with in basic training except with a different buttstock and a shorter barrel.

Does not compute.

If it has a shorter barrel and a different buttstock, how could it be like an A2?
Link Posted: 2/12/2006 6:49:10 PM EDT

Originally Posted By SWO_daddy:

Originally Posted By -Shaggs-:I want it to be like the A2 that I shot with in basic training except with a different buttstock and a shorter barrel.

Does not compute.

If it has a shorter barrel and a different buttstock, how could it be like an A2?



I meant similar in the bolt carrier, twist rate and lining of barrel, I like how the AR's have a 4 or 6 position stock and I like how the AR comes in a shorter barrel.
Link Posted: 2/12/2006 7:03:26 PM EDT

Originally Posted By -Shaggs-:

Originally Posted By SWO_daddy:

Originally Posted By -Shaggs-:I want it to be like the A2 that I shot with in basic training except with a different buttstock and a shorter barrel.

Does not compute.

If it has a shorter barrel and a different buttstock, how could it be like an A2?



I meant similar in the bolt carrier, twist rate and lining of barrel, I like how the AR's have a 4 or 6 position stock and I like how the AR comes in a shorter barrel.


Then you want an M4 clone. CMMG makes some 14.5" uppers with permanent flash suppressors to bring the barrel to a legal 16 inches. Chrome lined, 1/7, M4 profile, M4 feed ramps, about as close as GI as you can get. Get a lower with a crappy single stage trigger and a six position telescoping stock and you are set.
Link Posted: 2/12/2006 7:22:08 PM EDT

Originally Posted By SWO_daddy:

Originally Posted By -Shaggs-:

Originally Posted By SWO_daddy:

Originally Posted By -Shaggs-:I want it to be like the A2 that I shot with in basic training except with a different buttstock and a shorter barrel.

Does not compute.

If it has a shorter barrel and a different buttstock, how could it be like an A2?



I meant similar in the bolt carrier, twist rate and lining of barrel, I like how the AR's have a 4 or 6 position stock and I like how the AR comes in a shorter barrel.


Then you want an M4 clone. CMMG makes some 14.5" uppers with permanent flash suppressors to bring the barrel to a legal 16 inches. Chrome lined, 1/7, M4 profile, M4 feed ramps, about as close as GI as you can get. Get a lower with a crappy single stage trigger and a six position telescoping stock and you are set.



Del-Ton makes an M4 kit with an optional 1x7 chrome lined barrel. What about the bolt carrier? and the charging handle?
Link Posted: 2/13/2006 2:13:10 PM EDT
The charging handle and bolt and bolt-carrier are essentially "standard" parts and the same for all ARs. Unless you have something like the PRI Gas Buster charging handle or a chromed bolt carrier or something like that. Any of the "quality" brand bolt carriers are chrome-lined on the inside where the bolt goes. I don't know if the "kit brand" ones are or not, but they probably come from the same supplier.

Your M16A2 had a 20" barrel that was thin (~5/8") under the handguards, chrome lined, and 1/7" twist. Most ARs have barrels that are 1/9" twist, not lined, and much thicker under the HGs (~7/8 - 1"), unless specified otherwise. If you're not going to shoot match ammo heavier than 69gr then 1/9" twist is fine. If you want to shoot the 75/77gr ammo that's currently considered the best for terminal performace then you want to go 1/8" or 1/7" twist. Twist rate and barrel profile will have no effect on reliability. Chrome lining will last longer and be a little easier to clean but not have a significant effect on reliabilty except under extreme conditions where rust/corrosion could be an issue.
Link Posted: 2/13/2006 7:08:21 PM EDT
so chrome lining isn't nessesary then? I'll probably only be shooting 2 or 3 times a month. what grain is the winchester white box ammo that I keep reading about? I'll be using this mostly for target shooting.
Link Posted: 2/13/2006 7:43:11 PM EDT

Originally Posted By -Shaggs-:
so chrome lining isn't nessesary then? I'll probably only be shooting 2 or 3 times a month. what grain is the winchester white box ammo that I keep reading about? I'll be using this mostly for target shooting.



www.ammo-oracle.com--pls read this

WWB .223 will probably be 55gr FMJ

Chrome-Lining is not necessary, but it does provide lots of benefits such as: longer bbl life, easier cleaning, more corrosion/rust resistance, and to a certain extent, increased reliability

it will also be less accurate than a regular chrome-moly (same material as the C-L, just no lining from the factory), but not that noticible

if you want as mil-spec as possible, get the chrome lining and 1-7 twist
Link Posted: 2/13/2006 8:13:38 PM EDT
If you want an M4 - get a Colt 6920

If you want an M16a2 have your dealer order up a Bushmaster lower with the A2 stock. Then call up Bushmaster and order an uppper: Tell them you want a 20" Govt Profile barrel - ask if they have any of their 1:7 twist 20"ers in stock - if so tell them you want one of them. Ask for an A2 upper.

Then when the upper gets to your house install it on your lower - it will be just like your Basic Training rifle except it won't have the Group Therapy mode. Worse case is they will be out of 1:7 twist uppers and you'd have to get a 1:9 twist upper. Not too bad a trade off.

Either rifle metioned will have a proper chamber, be chrome lined, and have the proper Bolt carrier & charging handle. If you get the Colt as a bonus you'll have the slightly heavier M16 carrier.
Link Posted: 2/14/2006 6:10:15 AM EDT

Originally Posted By -Shaggs-:
so chrome lining isn't nessesary then? I'll probably only be shooting 2 or 3 times a month.


If the gun is going to be used as a weapon then I'd recommend chrome lining. If it's going to be a range gun then I'd say it's optional. "Normal" rifle barrels like your hunting rifle aren't chrome lined, but almost all military issue ones are. Partly for the longer wear, especially when hot, and partly for the corrosion resistance. Match-grade barrels aren't lined because it's hard to get a truly uniform thickness and precise bore diameter when lining, but a good quality lined barrel (like Colt or Bushmaster) is plenty accurate. My chrome-lined BM barrel can do 1/2" at 100yds with good ammo. And I think FN makes a sniper rifle with lined bore.

Another thing to consider is chamber spec. For reliability with all ammo you want the "5.56" chamber which has a longer throat than the ".223" chamber used on most .223 rifles (like a Rem 700).


what grain is the winchester white box ammo that I keep reading about? I'll be using this mostly for target shooting.

Winchester makes "white box" (USA brand) loads in 45gr JHP, 55gr FMJ (.223), 55gr FMJ (5.56), 62gr FMJ, and I think 55gr SP. On here most people are probably referring to the 55gr FMJ 5.56mm, product number Q3131 or Q3131A. That's the hotter "M193-spec" loads. Lots of people also use the .223 version, product USA223R1 or USA223R1F, that's loaded to SAAMI pressures like most other brands. I've found the 45gr JHP to be surprisingly accurate in my rifle, but the light bullet wouldn't be best for longer range target shooting. Most serious target shooters like High Power shooters run 68/69/75/77/80/90gr because they buck wind better and hold velocity better at longer ranges.


You're kind of confusing people here by saying you want a "config most like an M16A2" and then saying you want to change the barrel length and stock--the things that make it an "M16A2" config. If the only thing you really care about from the M16A2 is the reliability, then just stick to the ABCR brands--Armalite, Bushmaster, Colt, Rock River Arms. A couple BM models like the Varminter and DCM don't have the chrome lining or 5.56 chamber. Some Colts just have chrome chambers and not full bore, but they all have the 5.56 chamber. I think Armalites all have the 5.56 chamber now. RRA has 5.56 on some and .223 Wylde (which is just as good) on some. Most RRAs aren't chrome-lined, but some are. Pick a configuration you like from them (I'd recommend a flat-top), avoiding the "special" models like varmint and NM/DCM/CMP, and you'll be fine.
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