Quoted: Quoted: You can buy 3 boxes of plinker 6.5 for the cost of 2 boxes of plinker 6.8 this is true.  However 6.5 is a long range round.  When was the last time you heard of anyone doing target shooting with Wolf? Wolf is match grade. Some of the best ammo out there, probably superior to Black Hills even.....

About as lame as claiming the terminal ballistics of any 6.5 mm cartridge are poor.

You're right, I'll rephrase:

"When compared with 6.8mm SPC ammunition, 6.5mm Grendel exhibits poor terminal performance.  It is, however, better than a pointy stick."

Quoted: About as lame as claiming the terminal ballistics of any 6.5 mm cartridge are poor. You're right, I'll rephrase: "When compared with 6.8mm SPC ammunition, 6.5mm Grendel exhibits poor terminal performance.  It is, however, better than a pointy stick." hr

Based on what?

The 0.3mm difference in diameter?

Then I´d rather take 7.62x39, or even .50 Beowulf...

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: You can buy 3 boxes of plinker 6.5 for the cost of 2 boxes of plinker 6.8 this is true.  However 6.5 is a long range round.  When was the last time you heard of anyone doing target shooting with Wolf? Wolf is match grade. Some of the best ammo out there, probably superior to Black Hills even.....

Obviously someone without a clue about how Wolf Ammunition works.  Their 6.5 Grendel ammo, made by Prvi Partizan of Serbia, will be awesome.  Just like all the Prvi ammo I've ever shot.

Wolf's rimfire match ammo is made by SK Jagd in Germany and it gives nothing to Eley or Lapua.

Quoted: About as lame as claiming the terminal ballistics of any 6.5 mm cartridge are poor. You're right, I'll rephrase: "When compared with 6.8mm SPC ammunition, 6.5mm Grendel exhibits poor terminal performance.  It is, however, better than a pointy stick."

Yeah, keep repeating internet rumors.

Quoted: About as lame as claiming the terminal ballistics of any 6.5 mm cartridge are poor. You're right, I'll rephrase: "When compared with 6.8mm SPC ammunition, 6.5mm Grendel exhibits poor terminal performance.  It is, however, better than a pointy stick."

Have you got any terminal data for a 6.5 out of a 16" barrel vs a 6.8 out of a 16" barrel?  I've been looking for a while now and can't find any.

Quoted: Quoted: About as lame as claiming the terminal ballistics of any 6.5 mm cartridge are poor. You're right, I'll rephrase: "When compared with 6.8mm SPC ammunition, 6.5mm Grendel exhibits poor terminal performance.  It is, however, better than a pointy stick." hr Have you got any terminal data for a 6.5 out of a 16" barrel vs a 6.8 out of a 16" barrel?  I've been looking for a while now and can't find any.

Not 16", but 14.5" and 20"...

www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0IAV/is_4_93/ai_n6362162/pg_2

As I noted in another thread, the winner here is - THE CONSUMER.    

Choose whatever 6.X you want, and let the folks that choose the other live in peace.

We now have more options than ever before, and we should just be glad we have a choice in the first place....  

 

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: About as lame as claiming the terminal ballistics of any 6.5 mm cartridge are poor. You're right, I'll rephrase: "When compared with 6.8mm SPC ammunition, 6.5mm Grendel exhibits poor terminal performance.  It is, however, better than a pointy stick." Have you got any terminal data for a 6.5 out of a 16" barrel vs a 6.8 out of a 16" barrel?  I've been looking for a while now and can't find any. Not 16", but 14.5" and 20"... www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0IAV/is_4_93/ai_n6362162/pg_2

No gel data. I'd really like to see what happens where the rubber hits the road.

Quoted: Way more 6.8 available than 6.5 rifles.  The Wolf thing is all you are basing the dominance of 6.5 on? Agree 6.8/6.5 are not competitors at all.  6.8 is for short barreled carbines.  6.5 is a long range round for precision shooting. Debate should be 5.56 vs 6.8 and .308 vs 6.5 That is where the real comparison is IMO.

+1.

Will

Quoted: As I noted in another thread, the winner here is - THE CONSUMER.     Choose whatever 6.X you want, and let the folks that choose the other live in peace. We now have more options than ever before, and we should just be glad we have a choice in the first place....

+1

I still don't see why it's some kind of taboo to like both.  I've already said many times that one of them performing well does not come at the expense of the other.  If the 6.5 Grendel is a great round within 300 yards, that doesn't mean the 6.8 can't be.  If the 6.8 doesn't do well at 1000 yards, I personally don't care.  If the 6.5 does, that's great.  I have wanted to get a 6.5 G for some time, but have been waiting for mainstream parts so I can build it myself.  

My questions: Will it utterly annoy a bunch of people here if both rounds live? If something is not displayed at SHOT, does that mean it doesn't exist?  And lastly, has no one figured out that it is absolutely retarded to argue 6.5 vs. 6.8?  Someone is going to come back from the Detroit Auto Show and announce Ford has just beat Chevy next.

It all becomes a moot subject when Glock releases the 6.66mm GAR (Glock Automatic Rifle) round along with their new polymer rifle.

This 6.5 vs 6.8 debate is taking on LeMas for stupidity.

6.8 is in trouble without .mil or LEO, but grendal is being driven forward strictly on consumer dollars which clearly illustrates a demand, a viable market, and strong interest.

6.5 has more applications as well. It hits hard at 25 yards and remians flat and supersonic past 1000 yards. 6.8 isnt anywhere near as varied in its purpose. It's very singular in its "all CQB all the time" design, which is nice, but that sounds like an AK47 bullet and not a real successor to the fast, light recoiling, accurate, flat shooting 5.56.

6.5 has the potential, while unlikely, to be the 2nd universal military round as well, similar to the 30-06. Sniper, Support, Assualt. 6.8 cant play all those roles as well

And brush up on your Wolf products because you type laughing faces or something else equally fueled by being misinformed

I don't think that the 6.8 is died! I just pick up my second one last weekend, It was the last one they had, everything is on back order, the supply and demand for 6.8 has hit an all time high!
 It appears anything to do with 6.8, by the 6.5 crowd, was given a blind eye at shot show.
One last thing, the ballistics table I just seen is bogus, the 115gr OTM was not design for Match are long range shooting, you guys are as bad as Democrats trying to put a spin on shit! then you have everyone thinking that they can go buy cheep ammo, and burn up there high doller bench rest gun!

Quoted: Quoted: People treat these rounds like they are as different as night and day.  In reality, there will perform very similarly.  0.3mm is hardly perceptible, and at realistic ranges they will have about the same amount of drop.  I did a point blank range analysis a few years ago, and the Grendel outranged the 6.8 by only 7%.  The only difference between these two cartridges is that the Grendel is a flatter shooting cartridge at ranges that most people can not and should not shoot. IMHO, the jury is still out on both cartridges.  I think you are suddenly seeing more activity with the Grendel because Alexander Arms unwisely restricted licensing.  He made the rifles he wanted, not what most AR shooters wanted.  Now that he is licensing some more customer-oriented businesses to produce rifles, it is natural for there to be pent up demand.  Grendel shooters are finally able to get what they want, which SPC shooters have been doing for years.  Now that rifles and ammo will be available for both cartridges, we should see in the next few years which one of these will succeed like the 243, and which will be marginalized like the 6mm Rem. They ARE as different as night and day. The 6.5 Grendel loads have some of the best BC of ANY bullet on the market in ANY caliber. Its supersonic past 1200 yards. Yeah, I guess there similiar in the sense they both get shot out of a gun, they both have a bullet, powder, primer and a shell casing. But the comparisons end about there. Might as well compare .243 to 30-06 and say "Gee whiz, there the same cause at 100 yards they both do sub MOA"

Specop, you have perfectly proved my point.  Internet commandos focus on the superiority of Grendel at 1200 yards, which is completely outside of practical rifle range.  Very, very few shooters have the opportunity, equipment or skill to shoot past 300 to 500 yards, let alone 1200.  At realistic ranges, or even way beyond that point, there is little practical differences between the cartridges when it comes to field shooting.

Except for the few people who have the opportunity, skill and equipment to shoot past point blank range, 6.5 v. 6.8 is as dumb as .243 v. 6mm Rem or .270 v. .280.

My hats off to the Members here who like the 6.5 Grendel, you now have more options then spending a $1000 for an upper and $22 for a box of 20 rounds of ammo. I do not need a 1000 yard AR. I gather most AR owners are not target shooters\benchrest shooters and do not need this capability. Knowing that the 6.5 Grendel is base on a round of our foreign enemies, with a foreign made bullet, ammo made by a foreign company, and with no need for a 1000 yard AR. The 6.5 Grendel in not on my list.

BTW ritch5000 +1

Yes, it's coming to an end for me as well...  

Reading all of these posts, makes me even more inclined to stick with my 5.56 AR's & .308's (M1A & HS Precision).  I'll spend the money I'm saving from not buying a 6.5 or 6.8, and spend it on a ton more ammo for the completely functional tools I already have.  

I will never personally encounter any situation where I'd be wishing I had a 6.5 or 6.8.  Anything I'll encounter I can handle with a .22, a .223, a .308, or a .45 -- and I personally like to stick with ammo that you're likely to find in your neighbor's house, so-to-speak.



Now a .50 Beowulf is likely on my list!    That's in a class all it's own.

Quoted: Quoted: You can buy 3 boxes of plinker 6.5 for the cost of 2 boxes of plinker 6.8 this is true.  However 6.5 is a long range round.  When was the last time you heard of anyone doing target shooting with Wolf? Wolf is match grade. Some of the best ammo out there, probably superior to Black Hills even.....

You jerk!  Just spray my Magic Hat #9 all over my monitor and keyboard.

This $5-$7 a box of Grendel ammo made by Wolf is absolute nonsense!  How in the hell can the price point be $5 for brass cased, boxer primed and a high BC bullet when the Wolf .308 ammo is $4.00 a box with the steel case, berdan primed and shitty BC FMJ.  Not going to happen.  Hell PMC .223 ammo is $5.00 a box.  Sure, the distributor will get the 6.5 Grendel for $5-7 a box, but not the end user.  Shooting Wolf in a 6.5 upper is like taking a Victoria's Secret model to your prom.  You may look like the big man on campus, but that dress is NOT coming off.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Who knows, Armalite may come on the list (did I say that),,, Lets not forget, y'all now have 25 round magazines and Wolf Ammo will be here just in time for letting loose this summer. Independant reports (other then Wolf) have told me that the company actually making the brass for Wolf turns out an impressive product that exceeds the quality of what Winchester turns out. If Wolf loaded ammo sells for 25 cents a round, maybe we might have brass at 10-12 cents a piece... should make the highpower shooters happy to have a cartridge that can shoot 600 yards with ease with brass at the same price as WW .223... It would be nice to see that happen. The ammo is already out at SHOT.  Why is it so hard to believe that it IS happening?

Out at SHOT does not mean SHIT!  Out on the shelves.......different story.

Doesn't only once company make uppers for the 6.5?

I have my doubts that the 6.8 SPC will even be around as a factory chambering within the next decade (all though I could be wrong).  Remington has really dropped the ball marketing for this round, and I cannot figure out why.  Instead of selling it in target and custom shop rifles, they should be building a 18-20" compact deer rifle out of it on a Model 7 action.  The 6.8 makes an excellent 200 yard deer gun, and recoil is negligible.  It would make a perfect kids/female gun.  I actually picked up a 26" Encore in 6.8 for my girlfriend to use next deer season, and I hope the cost of brass keeps coming down.  Right now you can get Rem brass for $26/100, which is still a little steep.  But its a lot cheaper now than it was 6 months ago!  

I really like the cartridge, but I have no plans for building one in an AR unless the brass and magazines becomes a little cheaper.  I will keep shooting it in my Encore, though.  

Quoted: Also, the 9mm vs 45acp debate has ended. 9mm is the winner.

Really, I guess you didnt hear about the JCP trials then, dumbass.  

Quoted: I have my doubts that the 6.8 SPC will even be around as a factory chambering within the next decade (all though I could be wrong).  Remington has really dropped the ball marketing for this round, and I cannot figure out why.  Instead of selling it in target and custom shop rifles, they should be building a 18-20" compact deer rifle out of it on a Model 7 action.  The 6.8 makes an excellent 200 yard deer gun, and recoil is negligible.  It would make a perfect kids/female gun.  I actually picked up a 26" Encore in 6.8 for my girlfriend to use next deer season, and I hope the cost of brass keeps coming down.  Right now you can get Rem brass for $26/100, which is still a little steep.  But its a lot cheaper now than it was 6 months ago!   I really like the cartridge, but I have no plans for building one in an AR unless the brass and magazines becomes a little cheaper.  I will keep shooting it in my Encore, though.

I don't disagree that it makes a great youth/ladies starter rifle, especially for the 200 yd range envelope.  But I've got to ask what the ".270 Win Light" does that the .257 Roberts or .260 Remington don't.  

To me the only advantage is that it works in an AR magwell where the Roberts and anything based on a .308 (.243, 260, etc) don't.  And since Remington doesn't make ARs, it never made any sense to me that they'd get involved, unless initially for developing ammunition that the military would use, and then latch onto that for civilian sales in some other platform more akin to Remington's product line (Model 7).  But when the mil side of things fizzled out, that resulted in a big setback for the round.  Now maybe that Horandy's making ammo and Silver State and if others jump on board, then maybe it will rebound.  

Quoted: Doesn't only once company make uppers for the 6.5?

If I'm not mistaken, Alexander is beginning to license other mfg's to build 6.5 uppers.

24" Target barrel A4 in 6.5 with a PRS stock and some nice optics would be a nice lil couter sniper rifle.  

Quoted: Quoted: Doesn't only once company make uppers for the 6.5? If I'm not mistaken, Alexander is beginning to license other mfg's to build 6.5 uppers.

Liscensed?

Does this mean that the owners of the cartridge are not allowing people to free produce parts?

Does the 6.5 not work in a standard AR upper receiver?

Why don't we ask Wolf nicely to start making 6.8mmSPC ammo. They seem to be open to suggestions from the shooting public(7.5mm, .303 Brit, etc), why not ask them to add one more round. Could drive down the cost of 6.8mm to about the same as Wolf 6.5mm.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Doesn't only once company make uppers for the 6.5? If I'm not mistaken, Alexander is beginning to license other mfg's to build 6.5 uppers. Liscensed? Does this mean that the owners of the cartridge are not allowing people to free produce parts? Does the 6.5 not work in a standard AR upper receiver?

No it does not.  The 6.5G upper that were originally built had an enlarged port opening.  Fat little cases need a fat hole to get out of...............

The 6.X argument is over.  Period.  The winner?  The consumer.  The military had nothing to do with either now, as both are going to be strictly geared towards the commercial market and few misc. LEO.  There is definitely enough AR related mania to foster the commercial production of both cartridges and related firearm parts.

ETA: Forget it. not worth the effort.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Doesn't only once company make uppers for the 6.5? If I'm not mistaken, Alexander is beginning to license other mfg's to build 6.5 uppers. Liscensed? Does this mean that the owners of the cartridge are not allowing people to free produce parts? Does the 6.5 not work in a standard AR upper receiver?

Grendel is NOT a SAAMI approved round.  Once a round is submitted to SAAMI, it's brass dimensions, reamer dimensions, and pressure levels are public domain and free for all to use.  It uses 7.63x39 bolts and requires a larger port opening in the upper.  It's not rocket science for a WECSOG graduate to figure out, but damn inconvienent!

AA has had license agreements on the table with some of the best custom tube makers for quite some time now (some for over a year), but the final legal paperwork has NOT been approved, at least when I last heard a few days ago.

As such, when they do license it (and it is clear that they are LICENSING it, not submitting it to SAAMI), it will still NOT be a SAAMI round.  Everywhere that I've seen Grendel advertised as "coming soon" also listed it as a "premium caliber" with an additional surcharge.  I guess AA's gotta get it's $$ not matter who turns out the screw tube!

Put me in the 'cautiously optimistic' crowd.  I think it's great that the shooting consumer will soon see a close in the price gaps so that we can actually begin to compare things side by side for ourselves.

Tom  

Armalite is coming out with a Grendel, when????

I can not confirm this, but this was taken from another site where the fella talked with Bill A at Shot and a Wolf Rep.

 6.5 Grendel has been acepted by the DOD for SOCOM operations. 6.5 Grendel M4 to be used for designated marksman. In order to get production up, deal has been cut with Armalite. Marine corp has really pushed this and has done most of the DOD testing for combat troops but Army AMU has done accuracy/sniper tests. The 6.5 has more flexibility than the 6.8.
Wolf production will be out July/August. Nice brass case stuff. Salesman said in quanity (1000rds) $.12-.15/rd depending on bullet. J&G and the other big Wolf distributers will carry it first. (On a side note a large shipment of 5.45mm is coming in. The Wolf rep said that 5.45 was a relatively slow mover. so they only had orders for a small replace volumes. He said about 6 months ago sales really took off so they had to redo there orders to the factory.)
The SOCOM guys will use a 120gr bullet. Standard military will be 103 gr.  

Also the CONSUMER is the winner!!!!  Lets stop the argument and talk about the Weather

Quoted: This 6.5 vs 6.8 debate is taking on LeMas for stupidity.

Fuck off, asshole.  And, it's your turn to hit the microwave for popcorn.  


BTW, I think ARMALITE should have gone Bi-BallisticMetro....

16"-20"  6.8 SPC and 20" 6.5 G Chrome-lined A4 uppers along with 24" A4(T) 6.5 G.  But, hell, after being away from humping/teaching the  M40A1 for 20 years and 4 glasses of Merlot... I might be RFA on the whole deal.  Naa, ain't hit the grain, yet.

Quoted: Grendel is NOT a SAAMI approved round.  Once a round is submitted to SAAMI, it's brass dimensions, reamer dimensions, and pressure levels are public domain and free for all to use.  It uses 7.63x39 bolts and requires a larger port opening in the upper.  It's not rocket science for a WECSOG graduate to figure out, but damn inconvienent! AA has had license agreements on the table with some of the best custom tube makers for quite some time now (some for over a year), but the final legal paperwork has NOT been approved, at least when I last heard a few days ago. As such, when they do license it (and it is clear that they are LICENSING it, not submitting it to SAAMI), it will still NOT be a SAAMI round.  Everywhere that I've seen Grendel advertised as "coming soon" also listed it as a "premium caliber" with an additional surcharge.  I guess AA's gotta get it's $$ not matter who turns out the screw tube! Put me in the 'cautiously optimistic' crowd.  I think it's great that the shooting consumer will soon see a close in the price gaps so that we can actually begin to compare things side by side for ourselves. Tom

IIRC, in order for a round to be SAAMI, it must be submitted to the organization by a member of the organization.  AA is not a member, therefore, cannot submit.  They have submitted the round to CIP, though.  

There are currently reamers available for purchase at Midway, so the chamber dims are already available to the public.  The licensing is to prevent other business from producing Grendels for a profit.  Individuals are not subject to trademark, IP rights, so you are free to bulid your own Grendel already.

Issues with building your own Grendel are as follows in a post from Bill Alex taken from 65Grendel.com:

"Compatability of the parts sort of depends what model you are working from.

All Grendels use a reciever with an enlarged ejection port. This is nominally 0.050" taller but the outside frame dimensions remain the same to ensure the port door fits. The rail dimensions and rail height are standard. Depending upon the manufacturer and where they are on the tolerance some existing recievers may work and some may not. For example I have an AO upper that the brass case will not fit through the port.

The receiver parts are standard
The carrier is standard
The charging handle is standard

The bolt and extractor are specific to caliber. The extractor may be replaced with a 223 unit but needs some simple mods and may not be totally reliable. All other bolt parts are common. Remember that you are dealing with a larger case so springs must be the best you can buy. I use chrome silicon for the factory rifles.

Now we get to the messy bit. All the stainless barrels set for accuracy, essentially the premium grade stuff, use a 0.906" gas block journal. Gas tubes are standard, being either A2 or mid length. Where the barrel has a flash hider this is a 3/4-28 RH The heavier profile breach to muzzle prevents whip and allows for better heat sink capability.

The new carbine barrels that are being launched for SHOT next year use a 0.750" gas block journal. The muzzle thread for these is 9/16-24 RH. The typical 1/2-28 thread was stretching the rifling at the muzzle and accuracy was all over. 9/16-24 was chosen as the next standard size and it allows most brakes/flash hiders to be drilled out and rethreaded.

Obviously the barrel extension is specific to the Grendel as are the magazines.

I have been toying about with the idea of offering parts kits for the build it youself junkies, but when you look at detail at what you really save, the answer is the carrier, the charging handle, the delta assembly and the gas tube. I feel that the current approach of building a $550 carbine with a chrome lined barrel will allow people to tear down these to make any changes they need (little detail, I intend to fix the front sight with parallel dowel pins so that they can be removed without huge effort). It also ensures that the receiver/carrier group/barrel work in harmony for any future build.

And for those who shout that they know all this, a little fact you may not: 1 degree of alignment error on the reciever index position will knock the front sight out of square and cause intermitent function problems depending upon it being a clockwise or anticlockwise error. 3 degrees and your gun will close but never open again.

Bill Alexander"  

Quoted: Armalite is coming out with a Grendel, when???? I can not confirm this, but this was taken from another site where the fella talked with Bill A at Shot and a Wolf Rep.  6.5 Grendel has been acepted by the DOD for SOCOM operations. 6.5 Grendel M4 to be used for designated marksman. In order to get production up, deal has been cut with Armalite. Marine corp has really pushed this and has done most of the DOD testing for combat troops but Army AMU has done accuracy/sniper tests. The 6.5 has more flexibility than the 6.8. Wolf production will be out July/August. Nice brass case stuff. Salesman said in quanity (1000rds) $.12-.15/rd depending on bullet. J&G and the other big Wolf distributers will carry it first. (On a side note a large shipment of 5.45mm is coming in. The Wolf rep said that 5.45 was a relatively slow mover. so they only had orders for a small replace volumes. He said about 6 months ago sales really took off so they had to redo there orders to the factory.) The SOCOM guys will use a 120gr bullet. Standard military will be 103 gr.   Also the CONSUMER is the winner!!!!  Lets stop the argument and talk about the Weather

I just need to quote this.  6.5 G ammo for  $.12-.15 per round.  Geez, regular Wolf .223 barely cost more.  This speculated cost of Grendel ammo needs to stop.  It's insulting.  Why would any Arms manufacturer put all of his eggs in one basket in regards to having their highly touted cartridge made by a company that does not produce brass cased ammo on a regular basis?  If mass produced .308 brass costs $.09 a peice, how in the hell is the 6.5 Grendel come in at .$15 for the round.  Again, I must raise .

Quoted: Also, the 9mm vs 45acp debate has ended. 9mm is the winner.

I think the whole "The consumer is the winner" is right on.  Having 4-5 different sources of 6.5 uppers is going to do a lot for the popularity of the cartrige.  Hopefully the manufacturers will be smart enough to use a twist rate fast enough to stabalize the 140 high BC bullets available for 6.5.  This is the problem that has plagued the 260 Rem, fast twists incompatable with the higher BC bulets.

I've been toying with building a bolt gun in 6.5 (something) for a while now, with 6.5-284 near the top of the list, purposed as a lightweight deer/antelope/2-legged snake rifle, but I might just have to get a 6.5 Grendal upper instead.

The 6.8 SPC has a few things going for it, and it could make a dandy police round for  <200 yard urban SWAT use where overpenetration with a .308 is an issue, but for general purposes the 6.5mm bullets outperform .270 bullets in just about every category.

So is there any actual new information, or are we just rehashing the old shit over and over again?

I just got back from SHOT.  I heard a lot of talk about the new SIG rifle, the SCAR, and the Elcan Specter VR.   Didn't hear any people talking in the isles about 6.5 or 6.8.   My impression of this thread is that it's trying to make something out of nothing regarding SHOT show news.

-z

Quoted:Why would any Arms manufacturer put all of his eggs in one basket in regards to having their highly touted cartridge made by a company that does not produce brass cased ammo on a regular basis?

When are you going to learn that Wolf MAKES NO AMMO.  They BUY ammo made to their specs, produced by different manufacturers around the world.  Those manufacturers are selected based on the price point of the ammo in question.

Wolf rimfire match ammo is made by SK Jagd, in Germany.

Wolf Gold 6.5 Grendel is made by Prvi Partizan in Serbia.  And yes, they have been making brass cased ammunition for quite some time now.  Like decades.

Steel-cased Wolf budget ammo is made by various Russian ammo plants.

Learn before ranting.  You can raise all the BS flag you like, but you have to know what you are talking about to be taken seriously.

The answer is more effective 5.56 ammunition that can be used in existing firearms, like Mk262.

Go ahead and buy your 6.X--the military isn't going to retrofit 1000s of rifles when they can use Mk262 and its successors.

Quoted: So is there any actual new information, or are we just rehashing the old shit over and over again?-z

Ford....Chevy....Ford....Chevy....Chevy....Ford....    


Read the article below and know that it is not just the 6.Xers that argue:  

Ford, Chevy Spar Over 2005 Sales Data By DEE-ANN DURBIN, AP Auto Writer
48 minutes ago

ORLANDO, Fla. - Ford Motor Co. told dealers Sunday that new data shows the Ford brand outsold the Chevrolet brand in 2005, contradicting General Motors Corp.'s claim that Chevy came out on top.

Ford said it will ask GM to stop referring to Chevrolet as the nation's No. 1 brand in its ads, but GM said it's standing by its numbers.

Full-year sales results released by both GM and Ford last month showed Chevrolet was the best-selling brand in 2005, outselling Ford by about 21,100 vehicles.

But Ford spokesman Jim Cain said Sunday that new data from R.L. Polk & Co. shows Ford beat Chevrolet by 5,000 in the number of new vehicle registrations. Southfield, Mich.-based R.L. Polk collects and interprets automotive data.

Cain said Ford planned to contact GM as early as Monday. He said Ford has no plans to run similar ads, saying the company is thinking beyond competing with GM. If the new numbers hold, Ford can claim to be the best-selling brand in the nation for 18 consecutive years.

Registration numbers may not match sales because a vehicle could be sold in one year and registered to an owner the next, GM spokesman Jeff Kuhlman said. He said sales figures — not registrations — give a more accurate picture.

"I know 100 percent that our numbers are accurate," Kuhlman said.

The spat showed the intense competition dealers are facing in a market that is growing increasingly crowded. Earlier this week, Ford Americas President Mark Fields said there will be 300 nameplates in the U.S. market by the end of the decade, up from 215 in 2002.

Ford released the numbers at a meeting with hundreds of dealers Sunday at the National Automobile Dealers Association's annual convention. Both Ford and General Motors Corp. sought to reassure dealers that their businesses are on the right track despite billion-dollar losses and continued declines in U.S. market share last year.

Tom Addis, a Ford, Lincoln and Mercury dealer from Coeur d'Alene, Idaho, and the head of Ford's dealer council, said dealers are pleased with Ford's new plan to give them more warning of marketing efforts and promotions so they can order vehicles accordingly. Addis said dealers used to find out about ads right before they ran, but starting this year, they will know Ford's plans at least one quarter in advance.

Fields and Rick Wagoner, GM's chairman and chief executive officer, reviewed the automakers' restructuring efforts in their dealer meetings, which were closed to the public and media. The companies plan to cut a combined 60,000 jobs and close more than a dozen facilities each over the next few years to restore profitability to their North American divisions.

GM dealers said the meeting showed dealers generally favor the company's decision to lower overall prices and rely less on costly incentives. GM announced the new pricing last month.

Dave Westcott, who sells Buick, Pontiac, GMC, Isuzu and Suzuki vehicles in Burlington, N.C., said customers are hesitant to buy because they're so conditioned to incentives, but he believes the effort will benefit the automaker in the long run.

Dealers also said they were reassured by Wagoner's comments.

"They have a consistent message and they're staying on course," said Patrick Campbell, a dealer from Baton Rouge, La., who sells seven of GM's eight brands. Campbell said his operations are profitable, but he's getting squeezed by the cost of utilities.

Mark LaNeve, GM's vice president of sales and marketing, said the company announced a program that will help dealers retain customers — and make more profit — by improving their service and parts departments.

Quoted: Quoted:Why would any Arms manufacturer put all of his eggs in one basket in regards to having their highly touted cartridge made by a company that does not produce brass cased ammo on a regular basis? When are you going to learn that Wolf MAKES NO AMMO.  They BUY ammo made to their specs, produced by different manufacturers around the world.  Those manufacturers are selected based on the price point of the ammo in question. Wolf rimfire match ammo is made by SK Jagd, in Germany. Wolf Gold 6.5 Grendel is made by Prvi Partizan in Serbia.  And yes, they have been making brass cased ammunition for quite some time now.  Like decades. Steel-cased Wolf budget ammo is made by various Russian ammo plants. Learn before ranting.  You can raise all the BS flag you like, but you have to know what you are talking about to be taken seriously.

And ultimately who will have to be responsible for any fuck-ups with production?  Wolf.

I know they are not the direct manufacturers, but it has their name on it.   And yes the majority of ammo they sell is Steel Cased.

What amount of knowledge do they have when it comes to brass cases?  What knowledge do they have except what AA gives them?  Certainly Wolf will not cut any corners with the specs they give their producers.............please.  Want to buy a bridge?

So who get sued by AA when they fail to meet the price point and production volume?

Furthermore,  another middle man!  Just proves my point even more.  Every time it touches another hand it costs more money.

I do not care who is or what smoke is blown up your ass, but the $.12-.15 price point per round for the consumer is IMPOSSIBLE for brass case boxer primer ammo!  We can not even get that with 5.56 nato which is made at 1000 per minute at Lake City Arsenal  

Quoted: Yes, it's coming to an end for me as well...  hese I will never personally encounter any situation where I'd be wishing I had a 6.5 or 6.8.  Anything I'll encounter I can handle with a .22, a .223, a .308, or a .45 -- and I personally like to stick with ammo that you're likely to find in your neighbor's house, so-to-speak. Now a .50 Beowulf is likely on my list!  hat

I am interested in the new cartridges.  But the more I am reading, the more I am looking to the 308.  The only attraction at this point is that they fit my RRA lower.  

Personally, I use the AR for its intended purpose.  Not a long range target shooter.  Most real engagements less than 150 meters, if that.  But, if there is a long shot, behind some cover, I would like the 308.  What say anybody.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted:Why would any Arms manufacturer put all of his eggs in one basket in regards to having their highly touted cartridge made by a company that does not produce brass cased ammo on a regular basis? When are you going to learn that Wolf MAKES NO AMMO.  They BUY ammo made to their specs, produced by different manufacturers around the world.  Those manufacturers are selected based on the price point of the ammo in question. Wolf rimfire match ammo is made by SK Jagd, in Germany. Wolf Gold 6.5 Grendel is made by Prvi Partizan in Serbia.  And yes, they have been making brass cased ammunition for quite some time now.  Like decades. Steel-cased Wolf budget ammo is made by various Russian ammo plants. Learn before ranting.  You can raise all the BS flag you like, but you have to know what you are talking about to be taken seriously. And ultimately who will have to be responsible for any fuck-ups with production?  Wolf. I know they are not the direct manufacturers, but it has their name on it.   And yes the majority of ammo they sell is Steel Cased. What amount of knowledge do they have when it comes to brass cases?  What knowledge do they have except what AA gives them?  Certainly Wolf will not cut any corners with the specs they give their producers.............please.  Want to buy a bridge? So who get sued by AA when they fail to meet the price point and production volume? Furthermore,  another middle man!  Just proves my point even more.  Every time it touches another hand it costs more money. I do not care who is or what smoke is blown up your ass, but the $.12-.15 price point per round for the consumer is IMPOSSIBLE for brass case boxer primer ammo!  We can not even get that with 5.56 nato which is made at 1000 per minute at Lake City Arsenal

I guess well have to see.  Based on Wolf's ability to source world class rimfire match ammo at substantially lower prices than its competition, I have no problems believing that they will do so again with CF ammo.

Quoted: I don't think that the 6.8 is died! I just pick up my second one last weekend, It was the last one they had, everything is on back order, the supply and demand for 6.8 has hit an all time high!  It appears anything to do with 6.8, by the 6.5 crowd, was given a blind eye at shot show. One last thing, the ballistics table I just seen is bogus, the 115gr OTM was not design for Match are long range shooting, you guys are as bad as Democrats trying to put a spin on shit! then you have everyone thinking that they can go buy cheep ammo, and burn up there high doller bench rest gun!

[Capt.Kirkvoice]da-da-damn, you.  You've almost turned me into a spelling/grammer nazi.  And I am one of the biggest violators.[/Capt.Kirkvoice]  

Quoted: So is there any actual new information, or are we just rehashing the old shit over and over again? I just got back from SHOT.  I heard a lot of talk about the new SIG rifle, the SCAR, and the Elcan Specter VR.   Didn't hear any people talking in the isles about 6.5 or 6.8.   My impression of this thread is that it's trying to make something out of nothing regarding SHOT show news. -z

Sour grapes eh?

Lots of news for 6.5 Grendel, not so much for 6.8.   The most significant new info pertaining to 6.8 vs 6.5 is that all the talk about how the 6.5 Grendel wouldn't perform in 16" barrels because it's supposedly "too overbore" has been proven to be BS.  Real world testing has shown that it scales very well as you shorten the barrel.   The only remaining BS to disprove is the assertion that for some arcane reason, it doesn't perform in gelatin tests.

Quoted: The only remaining BS to disprove is the assertion that for some arcane reason, it doesn't perform in gelatin tests.

I would honestly love to see that proven or disproven either way.

Quoted: Quoted: This 6.5 vs 6.8 debate is taking on LeMas for stupidity. Fuck off, asshole.  And, it's your turn to hit the microwave for popcorn.   BTW, I think ARMALITE should have gone Bi-BallisticMetro.... 16"-20"  6.8 SPC and 20" 6.5 G Chrome-lined A4 uppers along with 24" A4(T) 6.5 G.  But, hell, after being away from humping/teaching the  M40A1 for 20 years and 4 glasses of Merlot... I might be RFA on the whole deal.  Naa, ain't hit the grain, yet.

Someone needs to take their meds.

I would honestly love to see that proven or disproven either way.

Same here.  So far, the only credible tests I know of were performed by DocGKR.

We refer to the Colt fanatics as "Kool Aid Drinkers."

I hereby nominate the term "Reavers" for the Grendel fanatics.  All you have to do to stir them up into a violent frenzy is shout "SPC!" at them.