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Posted: 2/11/2006 1:42:48 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/11/2006 3:02:03 PM EDT by Ky_Bob]
I got to shoot my 11.5" upper with the Noveske brake on it today at the farm and after a bit I noticed that there was a rim of what appears to be carbon seeping out around the thread adaptor. After closer inspection it appears that metal has actually been applied to the outside of the barrel.

I really love this brake as it really quiets down the short barrel and hides the flash very well. Here are some pics. Hopefull ythey will show what I am talking about.

Anyone else have a similar experience?









Bob
Link Posted: 2/11/2006 3:26:11 PM EDT
have you forward this to noveske?
Link Posted: 2/11/2006 3:50:10 PM EDT

Originally Posted By eklikwhoa:
have you forward this to noveske?




Yes I have. While I was looking over his site I noticed a recall on the stainless cone inside the brake. I will take mine apart and see if it has a problem. I know it is stainless.

Bob


Link Posted: 2/11/2006 4:06:41 PM EDT
Link Posted: 2/11/2006 4:15:41 PM EDT
I am pretty sure it will, judging by his reputation on the board. If not I can just have someone weld up the crack and see how that works.

Bob
Link Posted: 2/11/2006 5:06:04 PM EDT
If I had my guess, I'd say it was a combo of lube/oil and carbon working its way out from the thread area. The main reason for this is the increased back/muzzle pressure of the Krink break. It should quit as the thread space fills with carbon and the lube works its way out. If it REALLY bothers you, take it off. Disassemble it, run it through a sonic cleaner, then solder the adaptor thread area shut with silver solder. I would just clean the outside until the leakage stops.
Link Posted: 2/11/2006 6:07:46 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/11/2006 6:09:51 PM EDT by Ky_Bob]

Originally Posted By Cyclic:
If I had my guess, I'd say it was a combo of lube/oil and carbon working its way out from the thread area. The main reason for this is the increased back/muzzle pressure of the Krink break. It should quit as the thread space fills with carbon and the lube works its way out. If it REALLY bothers you, take it off. Disassemble it, run it through a sonic cleaner, then solder the adaptor thread area shut with silver solder. I would just clean the outside until the leakage stops.



Yeah, it "REALLY" does bother me. That's why I posted the information here...

I cleaned it up and chipped off the gunk with an edge and it looks like new. But I am sure it will recur after the next outing.

Here are some pics of it after cleaning. Apparently it was just carbon.

I think this may be why the stainless cones are being replaced. This had a much sharper edge to it when it was new.




Here is the cleaned up outside. Just like new.

Bob




Bob
Link Posted: 2/11/2006 6:20:42 PM EDT
send the cone back and get the new upgrade one
Link Posted: 2/11/2006 7:18:04 PM EDT
My KFH does that too. My ADCO Krink does not leak though. I sent my cone back for a replacement, still waiting on that...
Link Posted: 2/12/2006 9:51:43 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/12/2006 9:54:21 AM EDT by ru4freedom]

Originally Posted By Ky_Bob:

www.kf3.org/~bob/noveske/noveske5.JPG


www.kf3.org/~bob/noveske/noveske6.JPG






Those sure are some nasty looking welds for a finished product!!!
Link Posted: 2/12/2006 10:00:54 AM EDT
Hot carbon deposits are like that. Inside an M60 gas system it looks like that, as well as inside an MP5SD suppressor. Hard, baked on, has to almost be chiseled out. An ultrasonic cleaner or soaking doesn't do it.
Link Posted: 2/12/2006 10:03:25 AM EDT
I had this same problem with the KFH. It is leaking between the tread adapter and body of the krink. Just let Noveske know, he will take care of you.
Link Posted: 2/12/2006 10:07:55 AM EDT
What would the leak hurt? It doesn't look as if it would affect function...
Link Posted: 2/12/2006 10:20:54 AM EDT
Curious: What type of ammo?
Link Posted: 2/12/2006 10:22:41 AM EDT
Maybe it's me but they NEVER responded to my inquiry about getting a replacement cone.


Bomber
Link Posted: 2/12/2006 10:37:15 AM EDT
Heck , there are a few who weighed in here, and all had the same issue.

suggesting either this is inherent to the design, or Noveske piece has a manufacturing flaw.

Anyone know whether the Krink brakes (AK) have similar stories?
Link Posted: 2/12/2006 11:26:50 AM EDT
I have a Real Bulgarian Krink 4-piece FH on my DPMS Varmint barrel with absolutely no leaks or any other issues!!

Must be a Noveske thing!!
Link Posted: 2/12/2006 11:53:45 AM EDT
My Krink from ADCO is nothing more than a Bulgarian Krink, with a threaded adapter which was made to the exact thread pitch to ensure a tight seal. As stated before I don't get the leakage with it. BUT it doesn't have a fire breathing pig either I had the ADCO Krink Gunkoted with Flat Dark Earth to roughly match the other shizzle on my upper... No issues with the coating.
Link Posted: 2/12/2006 12:07:23 PM EDT

Originally Posted By thebomber:
Maybe it's me but they NEVER responded to my inquiry about getting a replacement cone.


Bomber


I never received a response either

Sean
Link Posted: 2/12/2006 12:33:48 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Irish317:

Originally Posted By thebomber:
Maybe it's me but they NEVER responded to my inquiry about getting a replacement cone.


Bomber


I never received a response either

Sean



Here's what my cone looks like:




Bomber
Link Posted: 2/12/2006 1:15:56 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/12/2006 1:58:20 PM EDT by Sinister]
It's working the same as a blast baffle in a suppressor. Most suppressor manufacturers will usually use an Inconel (a very, VERY hard, abrasion-resistant alloy) blast baffle due to the same erosion issues. If you can find some photos of fighter jets flying with afterburner applied you will see the "Petals" at the very rear of the engine necking down to force the exhaust through a smaller aperture -- those petal vanes are made of Inconel.

Think about it -- coming out of an 11.5-inch barrel the unburned powder grains and kernels are being blasted at very high pressure and temperature against that stainless "Cone". It's the same principle as sand or bead-blasting. What is leaking out the rear is powder fouling.
Link Posted: 2/12/2006 1:42:49 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Sinister:
It's working the same as a blast baffle in a suppressor. Most suppressor manufacturers will usually use an Inconel (a very, VERY hard, abrasion-resistant alloy) blast baffle due to the same erosion issues. If you can find some photos of fighter jets flying with afterburner applied you will see the "Petals" at the very rear of the engine necking down to force the exhaust through a smaller aperture -- those petal vanes are made of Inconel.

Think about it -- coming out of an 11.5-inch barrel the unburned powder grains and kernels are being blasted at very high pressure and temperature against that stainless "Cone". It's the same priniciple as sand or bead-blasting. What is leaking out the rear is powder fouling.



Turbocharger wastegates and the heat shields on charbroilers like you see in Carl's Jr. are also made of Inconel.
Link Posted: 2/12/2006 1:51:10 PM EDT
Link Posted: 2/12/2006 1:57:00 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/12/2006 2:00:49 PM EDT by Sinister]
On the Krinkov / AKSU the first part of the brake is an exansion chamber (not sure if it has a baffle), with a flash-hider cone on the end. Not sure if it's the same type of chamber as on the AK74 (which has the integral muzzle brake instead of the cone).
Link Posted: 2/12/2006 2:03:16 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/12/2006 2:05:42 PM EDT by bigbore]
Link Posted: 2/12/2006 2:06:01 PM EDT

Originally Posted By mongo001:
Curious: What type of ammo?

All sorts. It's first weekend out was at the Frozen Buckeye Shoot in Ohio. I was letting anyone who had factory brass cased ammo shoot it. I also ran a few hundred rounds of Wolf through it.

This weekend it was reloads using Accurate's 2200 Data powder.

Bob
Link Posted: 2/12/2006 2:09:26 PM EDT

Originally Posted By FedDC:
What would the leak hurt? It doesn't look as if it would affect function...



One of the stated functions of the device is to direct sound downrange so you are not blasting those near you on the firing line. If it is leaking backwards towards the shooter then I wold think sound might also be directed towards the shooter. It also makes a mess, looks like hell, and I expected better.

Unfortunately mine does not have a fire breathing pig either.

Bob
Link Posted: 2/12/2006 2:42:52 PM EDT

Originally Posted By bigbore:
I was thinking the same thing the other day. I dont think I have ever seen a picture of a Krinkov with this style of flash hider. All the Krinkovs I see have goofy looking flash hider that has an ice cream cone on the end. Maybe the Reds are using the other flash hider for this reason?




Here's my Bulgarian Krink with the 4 piece FH/booster

Link Posted: 2/12/2006 3:04:18 PM EDT

Originally Posted By TapperMan:

Originally Posted By bigbore:
I was thinking the same thing the other day. I dont think I have ever seen a picture of a Krinkov with this style of flash hider. All the Krinkovs I see have goofy looking flash hider that has an ice cream cone on the end. Maybe the Reds are using the other flash hider for this reason?




Here's my Bulgarian Krink with the 4 piece FH/booster

199.197.64.17/pics/krink/BulgyKrink.jpg



Very nice
Link Posted: 2/12/2006 4:18:37 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/12/2006 4:28:40 PM EDT by ru4freedom]

Originally Posted By bigbore:

Originally Posted By Sinister:
On the Krinkov / AKSU the first part of the brake is an exansion chamber



Its the expansion chamber that is the actual useful part of these muzzle devices. If the AKSU offers all the benefits it was designed to give these SBRs, wouldnt that be why I never see any of the other style on Krinkovs?

I dont know jack about AKs, so if my thinking is off, let me know.

this is the ice cream cone thing I'm talking about
www.k-var.com/shop/images//d_655.jpg



That is not the style Noveske copied! The one we are refuring to is the "Bulgarian KRINKOV 4-Piece Flash Suppresser" not the standard Krinkov FH as shown in the K-Var parts kit image in your post!

Completely differant animal!
Link Posted: 2/12/2006 4:26:12 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/12/2006 4:29:10 PM EDT by ru4freedom]


Sorry......, double post!
Link Posted: 2/12/2006 4:27:59 PM EDT
Here's my Bulgarian Krink with the 4 piece FH/booster

199.197.64.17/pics/krink/BulgyKrink.jpg


That's the one!!
Link Posted: 2/12/2006 4:29:06 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/12/2006 4:37:34 PM EDT by bigbore]
Link Posted: 2/12/2006 4:43:19 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/12/2006 5:47:33 PM EDT by ru4freedom]




I understand, and thats my point. There are 2 expansion chamber flash hiders made for the krinkov.
Style A is 4 piece model that everyone basicically decided to put on their SBR ARs overnight, and style B is pictured above, which is more commonly used on the Krinkov.

When you see real world pics of Krinkovs, almost every one has cone style muzzle device. This leads me to believe its better option.

If I'm wrong tell me why, I would like to know.

Maybe I made the wrong choice when I screwed the Bulgarian 4 piece model on my 10.5" barreled AR.



I think you made the right choice. The 4-Piece is awesome! I 've had a Bulgarian 4-Piece on my Varmint AR long before Noveske ever thought of it! It couldn't work better on my rig! It eliminates muzzle flash for low light Coyote hunting, and concentrates the muzzle blast forward so I no longer need hearing protection while hunting & predator calling!!!

The differance in my case is that I used a Real Bulgarian 4-Piece threaded directly onto my .940" barrel. No Adaptor!!

If I understand correctly..., the Noveske's gas leak is @ the adaptor. I would imagine if they (or someone) were to make a better adaptor everything would be right with the world!! A poorly designed adaptor will ALWAYS be a weak link for any application!!

But I'm still not clear on how replacing the Cone would effect the gas leak either way??????


Link Posted: 2/12/2006 5:15:13 PM EDT
Link Posted: 2/12/2006 5:46:30 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/12/2006 5:47:03 PM EDT by bigbore]
Link Posted: 2/12/2006 6:44:05 PM EDT
One other option for sealing the thread adaptor is clean it as best you can and apply the purple thread locker. Its designed to infiltrate between the threads before hardening. As far as the inner cone getting caked-up, that is what happens. Thats why its easy to take apart to clean the cone. You could coat the inner cone with anti-seize (silver or copper) which will limit any hard to remove build-up. With it on there it will probably just wipe off when ever you clean it (just remember to re-apply it). I have two of them, both set asside for future SBR's. A 11.5 AR15 and a SW52.

Right now I use it on a standard 16 inch AR and absolutely love it. I would love to see one on a 13 inch FAL it would look and function great!!!
Link Posted: 2/12/2006 6:49:28 PM EDT
Link Posted: 2/14/2006 8:27:16 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/14/2006 12:19:06 PM EDT by Ky_Bob]

Originally Posted By Cyclic:
One other option for sealing the thread adaptor is clean it as best you can and apply the purple thread locker. Its designed to infiltrate between the threads before hardening. As far as the inner cone getting caked-up, that is what happens. Thats why its easy to take apart to clean the cone. You could coat the inner cone with anti-seize (silver or copper) which will limit any hard to remove build-up. With it on there it will probably just wipe off when ever you clean it (just remember to re-apply it). I have two of them, both set asside for future SBR's. A 11.5 AR15 and a SW52.

Right now I use it on a standard 16 inch AR and absolutely love it. I would love to see one on a 13 inch FAL it would look and function great!!!



The cone being caked up is not the issue. The fact that the cone is eroding away like a decaying tooth is the issue.

I called Noveske today about getting my cone replaced and will be sending it in to them. They evidently do not read the mail they get from their website "contact us" form very often as I have not heard back from them yet on this thread.

ETA: I received a reply from John thi afternoonn and they are sending out a replacement cone ASAP accoring to the email and I am to send my old cone back when I get the chance.

He also stated in the email that they are working on an even better material than the carbon ones they are currently sending out. Maybe they will be iconel.


Bob
Link Posted: 2/14/2006 5:13:50 PM EDT
I got an automated response from UPS that Noveske is sending me a package- My replacement cone is on its way!!!
Link Posted: 2/14/2006 5:28:00 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/14/2006 5:32:05 PM EDT by Capn_Crunch]

Originally Posted By bigbore:

Originally Posted By Sinister:
Think about it -- coming out of an 11.5-inch barrel the unburned powder grains and kernels are being blasted at very high pressure and temperature against that stainless "Cone". It's the same priniciple as sand or bead-blasting. What is leaking out the rear is powder fouling.



I was thinking the same thing the other day. I dont think I have ever seen a picture of a Krinkov with this style of flash hider. All the Krinkovs I see have goofy looking flash hider that has an ice cream cone on the end. Maybe the Reds are using the other flash hider for this reason?



The Bulgarians designed the 4-piece flash suppressor for use with the short 7.62 milled receiver "AKSU" style rifles they make. It also appears on the 5.56 milled receiver "AKSU" style rifles that were produced. It is only a Bulgarian thing, and only on those two calibers. How many "real world" photos of Bulgarian "AKSU" style Kalashnikovs have you ever seen? Much less the underfolding 7.62 or 5.56 milled receiver ones?

The Russians use the cone style booster on the AKS-74U because it is what they originally designed for it, and did not change during the time that particular rifle was in production. You see these in "real world" photos more often because the Russians use their AKS-74U's a helluva lot more than the Bulgarians use ANY of their weapons. A very similar design is also on the AK-100 series of rifles meant for export.

Back to the original subject, Sinister nailed it on the head. Stainless, and even CM steel do not do well in this application, and Inconel is preferable.
Link Posted: 2/14/2006 5:42:44 PM EDT

Originally Posted By bigbore:

I understand, and thats my point. There are 2 expansion chamber flash hiders made for the krinkov.
Style A is 4 piece model that everyone basicically decided to put on their SBR ARs overnight.
Style B is pictured above, which is more commonly used on the Krinkov.

When you see real world pics of Krinkovs, almost every one has the cone style. This leads me to believe its the better option.



bigbore, I have the B style device you mentioned on a Bulgarian 5.45 KRINK AK.
No baffles inside, just one big chamber. Mine leaks like a sieve around the threads.
I used Teflon plumbing tape to try and seal it a little. The gas is so strong some of the tape started to get blown out.
Link Posted: 2/14/2006 6:18:16 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/14/2006 6:19:33 PM EDT by bigbore]
Link Posted: 2/14/2006 7:51:37 PM EDT

Originally Posted By bigbore:

Originally Posted By Capn_Crunch:
Back to the original subject, Sinister nailed it on the head. Stainless, and even CM steel do not do well in this application, and Inconel is preferable.



Thanks for the info, I wouldn't know the difference between Bulgarian or a Russian AK anything.
So you are saying, the 4-piece devices are flawed by design? I believe the real Bulgarian pieces are CM steel which have been hard chromed.
So to make these things the correct way, tehy would need to be made from Inconel? What does that material cost?

If the cone style booster works (and obviously it does) isnt it a much better choice than the 4-piece Bulgarian design?




For the way the armies of the Eastern Bloc planned on fighting during the time these items were designed, a material that worked for 800 rounds was fine.

When adapting these to something used on a MK18 that will see 8000+ rounds in its lifetime, yes, choosing SS or CM steel over Inconel wouldn't be MY choice. Hard Chromed CM steel still wouldn't be my choice over inconel.

As to what Inconel costs, it's pretty damn pricy, and it's hard to work with from what I hear.

And the cone style booster does indeed increase back-pressure, but it doesn't direct blast from the shooter nearly as well as the 4-piece.

If you want me to REALLY go into depth, IM me a phone number and I'll LYK the full scoop on the materials. I'm too lazy to type anything else technical tonight.
Link Posted: 2/15/2006 4:49:45 AM EDT
Link Posted: 2/15/2006 6:45:43 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/15/2006 9:15:45 AM EDT by Ky_Bob]
I wonder if a ceramic would hold up in this application? It would probably be crazy expensive.


I received an automated email message that my replacement cone had shipped.

Bob
Link Posted: 2/15/2006 1:10:50 PM EDT
A very hard heat-resistant / abrasive resistant ceramic material (like a Space Shuttle tile?) would probably be perfect but very, very pricey. Might also risk cracking.
Link Posted: 2/15/2006 6:33:51 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Sinister:
A very hard heat-resistant / abrasive resistant ceramic material (like a Space Shuttle tile?) would probably be perfect but very, very pricey. Might also risk cracking.



That's a good idea, but would it necessarily be better than inconel for the application? Inconel would be heavier, but it's what KAC and the like use in their cans...

Steve, ceramic coatings are actually fairly inexpensive nowadays. Fit4duty.com has them listed, IIRC. I've got a rifle with one of the Cerakote variants in the bore, and it has held up pretty darn well over the limited number of rounds through it. Might be worth checking into.

And as far as replacing the cones, it would be nice if Noveske just sold replacement cones... One could just replace them when they replaced the extractor springs, or somewhere wlse on their PMCS schedule. I'd clean mine every time I cleaned the rifle, however. Excessive carbon fouling on the cone leads to a decrease in the ability of the device to suppress flash.
Link Posted: 2/22/2006 5:10:50 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/22/2006 5:13:00 PM EDT by Ky_Bob]

Originally Posted By watersniper:
I got an automated response from UPS that Noveske is sending me a package- My replacement cone is on its way!!!



Did you receive it yet? My cone has not arrived yet.

Edit to add, I just checked the tracking and it is supposed to be delivered tomorrow.

Bob

Link Posted: 2/22/2006 8:25:42 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Ky_Bob:

Originally Posted By watersniper:
I got an automated response from UPS that Noveske is sending me a package- My replacement cone is on its way!!!



Did you receive it yet? My cone has not arrived yet.

Edit to add, I just checked the tracking and it is supposed to be delivered tomorrow.

Bob




Huh,

ME TOO

Mass shipment early last week then?
Link Posted: 2/23/2006 4:31:04 AM EDT
I am going to have to call! I never got confirmation

Sean
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