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Posted: 2/7/2006 5:07:11 AM EDT



Are they like the Bushies or like the Armalites or something a little different from both?
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 5:15:04 AM EDT
Is the bolt catch invisible or do I just not see it? I thought the photo might be reversed, but they've got the relief cut for the cam pin showing. Hmmm
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 5:22:27 AM EDT
There's Shot Show thread in GD (I think) that says RRA designed and built most of the parts for the now defunct Bushy 308.

When Bushmaster dropped the 308, RRA saw itself with left over inventory and a hole in the marketplace. So they apparently decided to fill it.

I'm going to have to get me one.

Might be the thing to build an XM110 SASS clone without breaking the bank.
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 5:32:36 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/7/2006 5:34:09 AM EDT by Yojimbo]
Interesting, RRA's new .308 AR does indeed look like the discontinued Bushmaster. You can see the FAL syle bolt release under the mag release button.

IIRC, wasn't RRA somehow involved in the development of the Bushmaster .308 AR?
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 6:20:00 AM EDT
hmmm....mid length AR-10?


I like
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 6:23:02 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/7/2006 6:23:19 AM EDT by BravoCompanyUSA]
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 6:24:43 AM EDT
Fortunately, Armalite still holds the trademark and patent on the "AR-10".

From what is being written over in the AR Variant forum the prices are situated properly, and the RRA Rep says they will likely offer chromelined barrels in the future and probably several different accessories.

Might be good for the market, i.e. lower prices on the Armalites, assuming they are successful.
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 6:33:47 AM EDT
are they going to sell the uppers and lowers seperatly?
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 6:41:45 AM EDT
I was considering an SBR AR10. Now with RRA using FAL mags, good or bad I have plenty of them, I'm leaning towards using the RRA for the project. I like the idea of common mags with my other long gun. We'll see when they get some press time.

Link Posted: 2/7/2006 6:48:34 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/7/2006 6:52:04 AM EDT by SHIVAN]

Originally Posted By want2race:
I was considering an SBR AR10. Now with RRA using FAL mags, good or bad I have plenty of them, I'm leaning towards using the RRA for the project. I like the idea of common mags with my other long gun. We'll see when they get some press time.



There are lots of things the RRA .308 will be good for, an SBR wouldn't rank very high up there.

The receiver is about 1.5" longer than an Armalite AR-10, which kind of defeats the point of cutting off 4" of barrel or so....

hell, I even considered SBR'ing my Armalite, but it is just so big that is doesn't really make sense in my mind.

Not nearly as handy as an SBR'ed AR15.
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 7:18:37 AM EDT
Who the hell hunts varmints with .308? Sounds like fun, though.
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 7:49:17 AM EDT
Ummmm, am I the only person here who forsees a bunch of broken bolts, just like Bushmaster's gun had?
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 8:11:14 AM EDT

Originally Posted By bolster:
Ummmm, am I the only person here who forsees a bunch of broken bolts, just like Bushmaster's gun had?



I think Bushmaster had remedied the situation at the very end. RRA probably avoided that bolt tail spec.
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 8:11:31 AM EDT

Originally Posted By bolster:
Ummmm, am I the only person here who forsees a bunch of broken bolts, just like Bushmaster's gun had?



you'd think (and hope) that RRA would remedy this problem before dumping money into the manufacturing, marketing, etc. of a platform that historically had these issues.


besides RRA has the "enhanced BCG"
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 8:18:18 AM EDT
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 8:21:05 AM EDT
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 8:23:36 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/7/2006 8:23:49 AM EDT by SHIVAN]

Originally Posted By Aimless:
I think the Bushies were about $ 1400



The least expensive street price was around $1250, IIRC.
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 8:26:22 AM EDT
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 8:27:39 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Aimless:

Originally Posted By SHIVAN:

Originally Posted By Aimless:
I think the Bushies were about $ 1400



The least expensive street price was around $1250, IIRC.



I just looked real quick at Impact Guns and they were in the 1300-1400 range mostly.



The "Chief Armalite Troll", gaijin, got his at Davidson's Online for $1270-ish IIRC....
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 8:33:38 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/7/2006 8:57:21 AM EDT by MonkeyGrip]
For those of you with AR-10s or the DPMS equiv; answer me this:

I'm an FAL guy who wants one of these 'cause FALs don't ACOG well and I've got 60- FAL mags many of which are new. I love the FAL but my eyes need an optic now. I've been debating trying to ACOG one of my FALs for years now but the imagined result is always disapointing. This looks (LAR-10) like it would be satsifying.

I'm a little worried about the direct gas injection dirtying up the guts though.

- Will the 308 ARs run like the 223 ARs as far as number of rounds before residue build-up starts to impeded function? Or do the 308 ARs tend to foul to the point of impacting reliablity at some round count lower than that of the 223 ARs?

I might prefer the 308 SCAR/ARM thing due to the gas piston but I probably won't be able to wait.
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 9:13:32 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/7/2006 9:13:50 AM EDT by SHIVAN]

Originally Posted By MonkeyGrip:
- Will the 308 ARs run like the 223 ARs as far as number of rounds before residue build-up starts to impeded function? Or do the 308 ARs tend to foul to the point of impacting reliablity at some round count lower than that of the 223 ARs?



Some 7.62N is a lot dirtier than it's 5.56N counterparts. Add to that more gas and you have more POTENTIAL gunk in the works.

In my experience with several Armalite AR10's, they will run about as well as their 5.56N little brothers. They do need cleaning, but it's not unheard of to run 500-700rds without cleaning.

Hell, I did about 1500rds on one of my old AR10 uppers before I swapped the barrel and foreend -- which is when I cleaned it.

Anyway, it's direct impingement, this is ALWAYS a concern.
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 9:38:42 AM EDT
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 9:58:00 AM EDT
Actually, if left unremedied, it is a dig against RRA. If left unremedied, it is a well deserved dig against RRA.
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 10:08:44 AM EDT
It was my understanding that thier in-ability to remedy the broken bolt issue, as well as some other things lead Busmaster to cease production on the BAR10...after all, there were other guns that could have gone first to free up production capacity. During the ban, this was an excellent idea because M14 and SR25 magazines were expensive and capacity of new magazines was restricted. From what I heard, the idea is fundamentally flawed and it isn't something that can work reliably. I trust RRA, but I also trusted Bushmaster....so, as far as I am concerned, they jury is still out. I would much rather stick with a more compatible magazine design from DPMS,KAC or even Armalite. FAL magazines are usually of a lower quality....and they can be because they rely on the weapon for proper function. Outside of a FAL, its just a crappy magazine, not choosen on its virtues like the M14 or KAC magazine, but because of availibility. With current magazine prices, its really not as much of a factor. I will wait until I actually get one to fail as I did with the BAR or witness one personally failing before I make my "official" opinion....but for now, I will give RRA the benefit of the doubt as far as thier ability to improve the design as much as possible, but I still have my reservations about the design, no matter who makes it.
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 10:11:36 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Troy:
In order to feed ammo from the very narrow FAL mag (which is designed for a gun that can feed from the center of the mag), it is necessary to delete the 6 o'clock locking lug in the barrel extension. Now you have TWO bolt lugs that aren't supported, and they are near each other, causing the pressure distribution to be even more lopsided. The predictable result is that bolts will break regularly, as Bushmaster found out.



From accounts of Bushmaster .308 owners, they have all their lugs, except the one where the extractor is, and they have all the corresponding barrel extension lugs as well.

Maybe some Bushie .308 owners could post some pics???
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 10:13:57 AM EDT

Originally Posted By rob78:
hmmm....mid length AR-10?


I like



That picture is not a midlength AR10.

Hmm, got two midlength AR10s. Nothing new.

BTW, RRA is not building AR10s and they might have to change the LAR-10 name the way Bushmaster had to quit using the BAR-10 designation.
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 10:15:57 AM EDT

Originally Posted By want2race:
I was considering an SBR AR10. Now with RRA using FAL mags, good or bad I have plenty of them, I'm leaning towards using the RRA for the project. I like the idea of common mags with my other long gun. We'll see when they get some press time.




Bushy could not make the FAL work consistently. I can't recall who, but it also seems someone else tried it, so what is going to be different this time?
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 10:16:51 AM EDT

Originally Posted By LARRYG:

Originally Posted By want2race:
I was considering an SBR AR10. Now with RRA using FAL mags, good or bad I have plenty of them, I'm leaning towards using the RRA for the project. I like the idea of common mags with my other long gun. We'll see when they get some press time.




Bushy could not make the FAL work consistently. I can't recall who, but it also seems someone else tried it, so what is going to be different this time?



ASA...

Link Posted: 2/7/2006 10:17:20 AM EDT

Originally Posted By SHIVAN:

Originally Posted By Aimless:

Originally Posted By SHIVAN:

Originally Posted By Aimless:
I think the Bushies were about $ 1400



The least expensive street price was around $1250, IIRC.



I just looked real quick at Impact Guns and they were in the 1300-1400 range mostly.



The "Chief Armalite Troll", gaijin, got his at Davidson's Online for $1270-ish IIRC....



And it worked perfectly. I guess that's why it is no longer being produced.
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 10:26:47 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Troy:
Guys,

The bolt-breaking problem is NOT going to go away. It's a design problem that can't really be fixed.

A normal AR-type rotating bolt is already missing one locking lug, where the extractor is located on the bolt. That stresses the bolt, because the pressure isn't evenly distributed, and in practice causes bolts to break (usually after a long life, but every once in a while, a bad batch of bolts will start breaking within a few hundred rounds).

In order to feed ammo from the very narrow FAL mag (which is designed for a gun that can feed from the center of the mag), it is necessary to delete the 6 o'clock locking lug in the barrel extension. Now you have TWO bolt lugs that aren't supported, and they are near each other, causing the pressure distribution to be even more lopsided. The predictable result is that bolts will break regularly, as Bushmaster found out.

No FAL-mag-based AR has ever been successful for this reason. Bushmaster's was the 3rd version, and they have more resources than anyone, can't couldn't make it work, because it won't work.

This is not a dig against RRA; they make great ARs. It's simply an engineering issue that can't be dismissed.

You have been warned.

-Troy



Be quiet, knave! You are injecting reality into this thead. The FAL mag bolt breaking has been magically cured this time, just like it was with Bushie.
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 10:27:43 AM EDT

Originally Posted By rob78:

Originally Posted By bolster:
Ummmm, am I the only person here who forsees a bunch of broken bolts, just like Bushmaster's gun had?



you'd think (and hope) that RRA would remedy this problem before dumping money into the manufacturing, marketing, etc. of a platform that historically had these issues.


besides RRA has the "enhanced BCG"



Well, it was nothing new when Bushie tried and that hasn't been long ago.
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 10:39:02 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Troy:
Guys,

The bolt-breaking problem is NOT going to go away. It's a design problem that can't really be fixed.



I disagree that the problem can't really be fixed. What needs to happen is that the original bolt locking configuration needs to be scrapped and a new design with a lesser number of larger lugs (like the Benelli R1) needs to be incorporated into a new bolt that still interfaces with the original carrier.

I am envisioning a bolt that has four large lugs at 90 degrees from each other, with the top lug rotated 45 degrees from top dead center when the bolt is out of battery. That leaves room for the extractor to ejector relationship to remain about where it is now without compromising any lug.

The problem is that completely new bolts would have to be machined. You won't be able to modify existing bolts by whacking off the inconvenient lugs.
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 11:29:11 AM EDT
4 lugs might be an idea, but the bolt doesn't rotate that far so lockup contact might still be small.

The M249 has two lugs and it also rotates. It feeds from the 9 and 7:30 positions too.



I didn't realize that the RRA receivers would be 1.5 inches longer than the Armalites. Either of the two will still be shorter overal with collapsalbe stock than my FAL. I'm looking for a shorter length of pull which is not easy to do on an FAL. No, a .308 SBR isn't very "practical", but should be fun.

Link Posted: 2/7/2006 11:30:49 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/7/2006 11:32:29 AM EDT by 200-10x]
Wouldn't the only problem with 4 vs 6 lugs (or 5 if you count the cut-out for the extractor), is that the bolt needs to rotate 90 degrees vs 60 degrees.... ??


eta: Beat me by a minute, want2race.... but great minds do think alike, lol
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 11:38:16 AM EDT

Originally Posted By want2race:
No, a .308 SBR isn't very "practical", but should be fun.



Completely agree, I am STILL contemplating doing a 10" bbl Armalite AR-10 and cutting down a LaRue 13.2 to fit....
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 11:38:42 AM EDT
The only thing I see is that they can make the lugs deeper and longer. You cannot make them wider due to the extra rotation necessary.
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 11:39:11 AM EDT

Originally Posted By 200-10x:
Wouldn't the only problem with 4 vs 6 lugs (or 5 if you count the cut-out for the extractor), is that the bolt needs to rotate 90 degrees vs 60 degrees.... ??


eta: Beat me by a minute, want2race.... but great minds do think alike, lol


Yes, but the cam pin slot can be lengthened to suit.

Guys, open your eyes to other firearm designs outside of the .mil. The Benelli R1 has three huge lugs on its rotating bolt head, and it takes the stress of shooting 300 Winchester Magnums just fine.
Link Posted: 2/9/2006 12:13:42 PM EDT


Still easier to just buy a FAL.
Link Posted: 2/9/2006 12:24:23 PM EDT

Originally Posted By MonkeyGrip:
I'm an FAL guy who wants one of these 'cause FALs don't ACOG well and I've got 60- FAL mags many of which are new. I love the FAL but my eyes need an optic now. I've been debating trying to ACOG one of my FALs for years now but the imagined result is always disapointing. This looks (LAR-10) like it would be satsifying.


What about DSA?
Link Posted: 2/9/2006 1:05:03 PM EDT
Still no chrome lining...
Link Posted: 2/9/2006 1:14:20 PM EDT
Tag for more debate.
Link Posted: 2/9/2006 1:24:57 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/9/2006 1:40:28 PM EDT by rob78]

Originally Posted By LARRYG:

Originally Posted By rob78:
hmmm....mid length AR-10?


I like



That picture is not a midlength AR10.

Hmm, got two midlength AR10s. Nothing new.

BTW, RRA is not building AR10s and they might have to change the LAR-10 name the way Bushmaster had to quit using the BAR-10 designation.



sorry

I like the idea of a mid-length Ar-10RRA .308...new or not.

hmm, you're jaded

edited to appease the technical bunch

Link Posted: 2/9/2006 1:39:05 PM EDT

Originally Posted By rob78:
I like the idea of a mid-length Ar-10...new or not.


Aren't all of Armalite's carbines midlengths?

RRA's .308s aren't really an "AR-10" because they use different mags, bolt catch, bolt, etc.
Link Posted: 2/9/2006 1:39:23 PM EDT

Originally Posted By rob78:

Originally Posted By LARRYG:

Originally Posted By rob78:
hmmm....mid length AR-10?


I like



That picture is not a midlength AR10.

Hmm, got two midlength AR10s. Nothing new.

BTW, RRA is not building AR10s and they might have to change the LAR-10 name the way Bushmaster had to quit using the BAR-10 designation.



sorry

I like the idea of a mid-length Ar-10...new or not.

hmm, you're jaded




A midlength AR10 would be an ArmaLite, not this RRA rifle. It has been around about 10 years. You go hmm about this as if you weren't aware that a midlength .308 has been around that long.
Link Posted: 2/9/2006 1:42:42 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Mike_L:

Originally Posted By rob78:
I like the idea of a mid-length Ar-10...new or not.


Aren't all of Armalite's carbines midlengths?

RRA's .308s aren't really an "AR-10" because they use different mags, bolt catch, bolt, etc.



They aren't an AR10 because they are not an ArmaLite. As you noted, they aren't even really an AR10 clone due to the differences.

There was a guy raising hell about what a POS his AR10, ranting and raving. Of course, a few jumped in with "yeah, ArmaLite sucks......", that type of BS.

It turned out his rifle was a Bushy. So, AR10 IS an ArmaLite, period.
Link Posted: 2/9/2006 1:47:03 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/9/2006 1:48:55 PM EDT by rob78]

Originally Posted By LARRYG:

Originally Posted By rob78:

Originally Posted By LARRYG:

Originally Posted By rob78:
hmmm....mid length AR-10?


I like



That picture is not a midlength AR10.

Hmm, got two midlength AR10s. Nothing new.

BTW, RRA is not building AR10s and they might have to change the LAR-10 name the way Bushmaster had to quit using the BAR-10 designation.



sorry

I like the idea of a mid-length Ar-10...new or not.

hmm, you're jaded




A midlength AR10 would be an ArmaLite, not this RRA rifle. It has been around about 10 years. You go hmm about this as if you weren't aware that a midlength .308 has been around that long.



sorry I guess that was a bit misunderstood.

I have yet to fire a mid length 308. I owned an Armalite M-15 with the mid-length gas system and really liked it due to a variety of reasons...mostly because it seemed to cycle smoother (less abruptly) than my carbines.

I sold it.

stupid.


I haven't jumped into the world of 308 Ars due to numerous reliability problems read on this board.

My hopes are that RRA has remedied the previously discussed issues.

hence the "hmmm"

I'm a little excited at the fact that this could (if the issues were resolved) be my chance to "get my feet wet".

no problems

edit: Larry, read your sig and now understand why you're adamant that ppl. stop refering to this rifle as an "AR-10".
Link Posted: 2/9/2006 1:58:49 PM EDT


Originally Posted By MonkeyGrip:
I'm an FAL guy who wants one of these 'cause FALs don't ACOG well and I've got 60- FAL mags many of which are new. I love the FAL but my eyes need an optic now. I've been debating trying to ACOG one of my FALs for years now but the imagined result is always disapointing. This looks (LAR-10) like it would be satsifying.




Why are you not able to mount optics on a FAL? There are at least half a dozen high quality standard 1913/picatinny rail options out there now that work very well.

My L1A1 clone. Either has the Aimpoint or a 6X fixed power.
No problems, steady as a rock.

Link Posted: 2/9/2006 2:47:04 PM EDT
ACOGed or scoped FAL issues: Cheek weld, eye relief, no BUIS, scope is mounted on a modified dust cover which represents extra parts. It just doesn't sound like I want to go there. Thus, the RRA 308. Maybe.
Link Posted: 2/9/2006 3:00:46 PM EDT
Link Posted: 2/9/2006 3:19:14 PM EDT

Originally Posted By rob78:
[I haven't jumped into the world of 308 Ars due to numerous reliability problems read on this board.

My hopes are that RRA has remedied the previously discussed issues.

hence the "hmmm"

I'm a little excited at the fact that this could (if the issues were resolved) be my chance to "get my feet wet".

no problems

edit: Larry, read your sig and now understand why you're adamant that ppl. stop refering to this rifle as an "AR-10".



Just to let you know, a lot (not all) of the problems you heard about were a couple of blowhards. It turned out that some of their "problems" didn't exist and when they had real problems they wouldn't send their rifles in for warranty repair (lifetime warranty). They would whine about ArmaLite customer service while most of us never had a problem with the rifles nor ArmaLite customer service. A lot of how customer service anywhere reacts to people is how they come across.

I have 4 AR10s that run flawlessly. The only problems I had were a couple of mags that were supposedly "factory" but turned out to be "backyard conversions". ArmaLite even replaced those for about half price.

Two of my AR10s are carbines..........1 10T carbine and 1 A2 carbine. They run like Swiss watches.
Link Posted: 2/9/2006 3:50:53 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/9/2006 3:51:51 PM EDT by bigcraig]
<<<<--------I have been researching all of the "AR10's" and their variants. IMHO Armalite is the only way to go. They are making new magazines. The whole FAL magazine based guns are IMHO a waste of time, especially now.
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