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Posted: 2/6/2006 9:55:44 AM EDT
Is the standard shooting practice of NTCH cheekweld no longer in vogue by most shooters? What is the consensus these days? For those that do not shoot NTCH do so because you are not using a stock that facilitates this, i.e.: a Magpul or fixed stock? Have you adopted your shooting style to the stock instead of using a stock that accomodates a NTCH cheekweld? If you do not use NTCH how do you obtain a consistent cheekweld from shot to shot and from rifle to rifle? Do you change your cheekweld on rifles with different optics? Or when going from optics to irons?
Link Posted: 2/6/2006 9:58:48 AM EDT
what works for you?
what does it matter what others are doing?
if it's comfortable to you why not use it?
Link Posted: 2/6/2006 10:14:17 AM EDT
Why is it not in use by most shooters? A lack of training perhaps? That's just a reference method anyway, used to teach basic rifle marksmanship. Like eklikwhoa said, it's all about what works for you.

Most of the red dot sights that make use of the Bindon aiming concept don't really require a cheek to stock weld. You can hit targets as without a ctsw, so long as you can maintain the sight picture through the break.

For instance... a CQB M4 with en EOtech mounted 4 inches off the upper receiver. No cheek to stock weld on that, but with the rifle butt mounted firmly on your chest you can manage recoil much better while still getting a good sight picture. Sure, the mechanical offset is weird, but the setup works like a champ.
Link Posted: 2/6/2006 10:38:14 AM EDT

Originally Posted By eklikwhoa:
what works for you?
NTCH
what does it matter what others are doing?
I was so absolutely fucking bored with my existence that I felt like asking a question on the interet in order to validate myself in comparison to others.
if it's comfortable to you why not use it?
I do.


Link Posted: 2/6/2006 10:44:45 AM EDT
I do not shoot NTCH, but I hit, so whatever. I shoot almost NTCH, but not quite, to cut down on the gas and shit that gets blown into my nose and up my glasses.
Link Posted: 2/6/2006 10:49:54 AM EDT
I was brought up shooting bolt guns. Only been into the black rifles since about 95'. The only time I do not get a good/consistant cheek weld is when I shoot my wifes 4pos telestock. I have no problems maintaining a good weld with a 6pos stock.

I tried the NTCH a few times and it just felt too akward and my accuracy suffered beacuse of it. Also it was very uncomfortable.

Just to add, I never had an issue with my IMI UZI either, and the folding stock on it is just a little shorter than my 6pos. <shrug>

Link Posted: 2/6/2006 10:50:09 AM EDT
People who dont shoot nose to charging handle generally lay their head over to the side instead of down and forward. In my way of thinking this is a bad habit as it becomes more difficult to get a repeatable head position and stay balanced while moving if its not as vertical as possible and with some sort of point to idex your mouth, lip, or nose off of. Then again I cant even do a propper front roll because I have some weird "must keep head vertical" balance phobia.
Link Posted: 2/6/2006 11:04:24 AM EDT
Link Posted: 2/6/2006 11:10:44 AM EDT
I shoot NTCH, head vertical, with the stock almost all the way in. If I shoot with a VLTOR all the way in, I sometimes put my nose beside the CH, with the CH on my cheek.
Link Posted: 2/6/2006 11:19:33 AM EDT
I also shoot NTCH. I find that it yields a superior sight picture when using standard iron sights, my only option at this time.
Link Posted: 2/6/2006 11:36:37 AM EDT

Originally Posted By eklikwhoa:
what works for you?
what does it matter what others are doing?
if it's comfortable to you why not use it?

+1
Link Posted: 2/6/2006 11:38:23 AM EDT

Originally Posted By ConditionOne:
I also shoot NTCH. I find that it yields a superior sight picture when using standard iron sights, my only option at this time.


Same here. A repeatable position that centers your aiming eye in the rear aperture is essential for shooting well with iron sights.
Link Posted: 2/6/2006 11:46:29 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/6/2006 11:47:22 AM EDT by Stickman]
It depends what I'm doing. When I clearing buildings, I'm up real tight on the weapon, with other things, not as much.

I was playing with a 3x & Eotech yesterday. I end up with the 3x up much farther than most people, however, it works well for me. I can shoot and move both eyes open without seeing the magnification, but by switching to dominant right eye, the magnification works well. I don't this this is something that most people would find comfortable, or effective, but it works for me. Running in this configuration, I am up close on the gun.

In the big scheme of things, I only care about what works for me and my team.


How people get rounds on target doesn't matter, as long as they do.

Link Posted: 2/6/2006 12:13:25 PM EDT
I shoot NTCH if only because I'm guaranteed to have a more consistent sight picture. An added bonus (if your shooting the right ammo) is the smell of burnt gunpowder. However if your shooting Wolf or some of that other foreign stuff the smell of ammonia will nearly knock you down.
Link Posted: 2/6/2006 2:25:42 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/6/2006 2:49:59 PM EDT by Yojimbo]
Regardless of where your cheekweld is what matters is that you are consistent and use the same one time and time again. The NTCH is just a good training technique that allows people to have a physical index point in order to achieve a consistent cheekweld.

As Grant mentioned with modern 1x red dot sights a consistent cheek weld is not critical like when using iron sights. As long as you can see the dot on the target you can make hits.
Link Posted: 2/6/2006 2:46:40 PM EDT
Link Posted: 2/6/2006 4:13:48 PM EDT
it has been replaced with CHUN... Charging Handle Up Nose



...sorry, but that site just cracks me up
Link Posted: 2/6/2006 5:18:14 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/6/2006 5:21:19 PM EDT by Matt_B]

Originally Posted By jvicent:
Most of the red dot sights that make use of the Bindon aiming concept don't really require a cheek to stock weld.

Not to be picky but BAC refers to magnified optics and OEGs.

I know why sovereign is asking this question but I'm not telling (not that it's a big secret).
Link Posted: 2/6/2006 5:45:07 PM EDT
I was pretty sure that I shoot NTCH, so I checked some pics.

Pretty dang close, but not as close as I thought.



Link Posted: 2/6/2006 5:52:44 PM EDT
Link Posted: 2/6/2006 5:57:15 PM EDT
I'm close to NTCH, but I must have a sensative nose or something because I can't stand something hitting me in the nose after every shot. I figure I'm about an inch behind NTCH but I seem to do it consistantly.

WIZZO
Link Posted: 2/6/2006 6:08:44 PM EDT
I shot my Beowulf NTCH......once.
Link Posted: 2/6/2006 7:17:21 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Matt_B:

I know why sovereign is asking this question but I'm not telling (not that it's a big secret).



OK, it's the Accupoint

I was just curious if I would have to change my shooting style to use an Accupoint, even with Larue's extended mount. Not trying to prove what is best, or who is right or wrong, or even to know what everyone else is using so I can emulate them. Just wondering if I will have to change more than I am willing to use an Accupoint. I didn't want it to seem like I was trying to start a pissing contest with Grant in the other thread or make it seem like I was bashing the Larue mount, so I asked some blanket questions here without reference to a specific optic. I have spent a couple grand at least with Grant in the last year and own a few rifles equipped with Larue gear so obviously that was not my intent. Thanks to those who provided some straight forward answers.
Link Posted: 2/6/2006 7:58:45 PM EDT
...LOL....
Link Posted: 2/6/2006 8:07:32 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/6/2006 8:08:07 PM EDT by MudBug]

Originally Posted By C4iGrant:

Originally Posted By MudBug:
I was pretty sure that I shoot NTCH, so I checked some pics.

Pretty dang close, but not as close as I thought.

www.goobage.com/pics/training/443.jpg

www.goobage.com/pics/training/197.jpg



Most folks think they are NTCH shooters and I always ask them if they have ever seen a pic of themselves shooting (as they are sometimes mistaken).



C4



I was being over zealous about testing that TR21 around my house with my nose right up against the CH. Maybe when I get out this weekend and just shoot naturally I'll find that I was completely wrong and with my natural cheek weld I'll be right where I need to be.
Link Posted: 2/6/2006 8:15:34 PM EDT
I shoot best with the stock all the way out and my nose far from the CH. I have no desire to shoot NTCH. Also, doesnt work with big bore ARs, not that that matters really for this discussion. I let a man shoot a 50 calliber upper at the range one day and he busted his nose first round. blood everywhere.
Link Posted: 2/6/2006 8:16:56 PM EDT

Originally Posted By MudBug:
I was pretty sure that I shoot NTCH, so I checked some pics.

Pretty dang close, but not as close as I thought.

www.goobage.com/pics/training/443.jpg

www.goobage.com/pics/training/197.jpg



Not to hijack a thread but..... Hey Mudbug, who's vest is that?

I was taught NTCH.... shot it just fine. Then as is the case when you start to think about it... experimented and then went back to it. I did the small arms firing school at Perry a couple of years ago... two shooters to each "coach". Had a Navy marksmanship team member as a coach and he does NTCH at prone, and moved back a bit as he went more verticle (sitting to offhand). That REALLY goofed me up..... sooooooo back to NTCH, lol.
Link Posted: 2/6/2006 8:33:28 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Wirebrush:
I shot my Beowulf NTCH......once.




i know where you are coming from the 'wulf is probably the only one that i shoot "face the hell away from anything on top of the upper"
Link Posted: 2/6/2006 8:34:46 PM EDT
I Michael Jordan it, and shoot tongue to charging handle.
Link Posted: 2/6/2006 8:42:37 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 200-10x:

Originally Posted By MudBug:
I was pretty sure that I shoot NTCH, so I checked some pics.

Pretty dang close, but not as close as I thought.

www.goobage.com/pics/training/443.jpg

www.goobage.com/pics/training/197.jpg



Not to hijack a thread but..... Hey Mudbug, who's vest is that?




It's an SDS IRACK with a couple ESSTAC Double mag pouches and some other random pouches. That was just after I got it. I've changed to TT triples, a TT utility pouch, an SOE IFAK, and some other stuff.

Great vest for what I do with it (training and 3-gun), very secure, very comfortable.
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 4:39:06 AM EDT
FWIW: Being a "lefty" with a "righty" AR is a good reason for me to back off the NTCH a little. Also, being an "old school/fart", my 50 plus years of not climbing the stock make the NTCH position feel very awkward for me. Also, since I have two different ARs, a 16" one with the 6 pos stock and the other a 24" Varmint with an A2, I use a different shooting position for each one.
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 5:16:20 AM EDT
I do it with irons because that's how I was taught. When I was helping my buddy learn to shoot his new AR, he found that he didn't like shooting that way. He said his nose hurt at the end of the day...
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 6:42:12 AM EDT

Originally Posted By sovereign:

Originally Posted By Matt_B:
I know why sovereign is asking this question but I'm not telling (not that it's a big secret).


OK, it's the AccupointI was just curious if I would have to change my shooting style to use an Accupoint, even with Larue's extended mount.

There ya go!. I was just trying to drag the "why" of your question out of ya, so everyone could give the best answers possible to your question.
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 6:50:52 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/7/2006 6:51:36 AM EDT by Bartholomew_Roberts]

Originally Posted By sovereign:
OK, it's the Accupoint

I was just curious if I would have to change my shooting style to use an Accupoint, even with Larue's extended mount. Not trying to prove what is best, or who is right or wrong, or even to know what everyone else is using so I can emulate them. Just wondering if I will have to change more than I am willing to use an Accupoint. I didn't want it to seem like I was trying to start a pissing contest with Grant in the other thread or make it seem like I was bashing the Larue mount, so I asked some blanket questions here without reference to a specific optic. I have spent a couple grand at least with Grant in the last year and own a few rifles equipped with Larue gear so obviously that was not my intent. Thanks to those who provided some straight forward answers.



As an ACOG shooter I can tell you that you WILL need a consistent cheek weld. You can use whatever method you like to get that cheekweld and you don't have to use NTCH at all; but the Accupoint (and ACOGs) are not red dots and if you change your cheekweld/move your head during shooting, you will see the point of impact shift.

It can be troublesome on scopes with big exit pupils (like the TA11 and Accupoint) because you can shift your head enough to change point of impact considerably without being aware of it visually. It looks like you have a perfect sight picture but your shots end up 8" low at 15yds and you are sitting there wondering "what the hell?" when you realize someone has adjusted your stock out 3 positions and your head is in a different spot.
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 8:56:18 PM EDT
ntch if using sights/scope. if reflexive fire, head is more upright, looking over sights. i do shoot my 308 ntch, but ill have to remember not to with the beowulf.
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