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Posted: 2/3/2006 3:35:17 PM EDT
1. Questioning the lifespan of the AR15 construction.

I was wondering how long a lifespan is for a high-quality Ar15 which has recieved proper maintanance?
I'm talking about everything from component failure to major parts like barrel upper/lower receiver wear and tear!

By quality I mean these 4 brands:
1. Armalite
2. Bushmaster
3. Knights Armament
4. Rock River Arms
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2. Questioning the lifespan of the caliber selection, contra material used.

Most, if not every AR upper/lower receiver are made of Aluminum 7075-T6 for strength.
But caliber like .308 win also share the same material as a .223 rem.
Since the same material is used the life span must be very different between the .308 win and .223 rem due to heavier recoil and tougher treatment to the barrel?
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PS: The wear and tear questions are in context with the average US soldier in iraq and their use of weapons. A place where things really getting hot! To know the real difference

h.gif
Link Posted: 2/3/2006 5:14:09 PM EDT
I'm pretty sure the M-16 I used in USAF training was an original model with no forward bolt assist. That would have made it 20+ years old when I used it. Those were fired a lot, but with .22lr ammo. I know people who have had AR-15s in civilian use for 15+ years. My personal AR is only about 4 years old, but looks like brand new and has fired over 1000 rds.

I would think that the basic rifle should work for many 1000s of rounds without having to replace anything serious. If you can change the bolt and the barrel I can't imagine why your AR would ever stop running permanently, save for serious damage from an accident or combat action.

SP

Link Posted: 2/3/2006 5:14:36 PM EDT
Q is not a vowel. Therefore, don't use "an".
Link Posted: 2/3/2006 5:20:01 PM EDT
THe AR's that you have listed won't last long at all. Now if they were Colts, they'd last forever. We all know Colts never wear out.


-Coltaide drinker
Link Posted: 2/3/2006 5:21:19 PM EDT

Originally Posted By cms81586:
THe AR's that you have listed won't last long at all. Now if they were Colts, they'd last forever. We all know Colts never wear out.


-Coltaide drinker



Yep Colt!

Forgot that one.

Danny
Link Posted: 2/3/2006 5:25:35 PM EDT
Well, any firearm, regardless of manufacturer will las a considerable amount of time, given the proper maintenance. People own Mosin Nagants that are over 60 years old and perform like new, again with the proper maintenance and careful ammo selection.

Is all a matter of taing care of your weapons, cleaning them after use and using quality ammunition loaded to factory specs.
Link Posted: 2/3/2006 7:39:56 PM EDT
Hejsa igen

For range use, a properly maintained AR15 will practically last forever. I think the life of a barrel is probably about 10000 rounds, and obviously common parts like springs, gas rings, bolt cams, extractores, etc. might need to be replaced over time as well, I can't really think of anything that would just "wear out" - I guess, if you are unlucky, an AR (or rather M16) that is used a lot in full auto MIGHT start to deform the pin holes in the lower, but my impression is that is very unusual and very rare. Even with "hard" use - shooting thousands of rounds and treating the rifle hard, with regular maintenance, a AR will easily last decades.

Hell - the Danish army was using M1 Garands from World War 2 up into the 1990's (called gevær m/50) - and some of those had been used very hard over the years. THEN, those same garands were returned to the U.S. and sold to civilians, and they still work perfectly. That's over 60 years of military use, and the rifles function perfectly.

Here are some of my garands - all of these are original WW2 Garands, and at least three of them were issued to the Danish army from 1950 to the mid 1990s.


If they can last 60 years in military service and still function perfectly and shoot accurately, I think you can EASILY assume decades of proper function in an AR if properly maintained, even if used hard.
Link Posted: 2/3/2006 7:52:48 PM EDT
My lower receiver in basic training in 1989 was an XM177E1, not sure how old that would make it but I'm guessing 25+ years. Anyway, there is no telling how many thousands of rounds had been fired with that lower but it was in fine shape.
Link Posted: 2/4/2006 12:45:17 AM EDT
Hej igenhat
Well I think normal use I can pass it to my grandchildrenhat
So the heavier caliber .308 win doesn't batter the receiver and other parts faster than if it was chambered in .223 rem, sounds weird?! I mean it's not logical!

The 4 brands I mentioned, which one would any of you take without looking back if you were going to a third wolrd war and your life was depending on it?
Link Posted: 2/4/2006 4:37:10 AM EDT

Originally Posted By walrus:
Q is not a vowel. Therefore, don't use "an".



Giving proper English lessons to our Euro friends?


AjilicQ........

all the Colt banter is about Colt products made before they began bastardizing them with large-sized fire control parts (.170) and odd bolt carriers (semi circle), etc.

Traditionalists look at the Colt AR15's made prior to 1990 as the "real Colt"

In all practical reality...........the new ones are just as good if not better.


as to lifespan in a war zone...............

Not as long for some as evidenced by this pic:



and non-mil AR's life will also depend on how you treat them........for example, this one......



will not last as long as.........say this safe queen:



Link Posted: 2/4/2006 4:48:53 AM EDT
Ha ha ha...yeah, my english is not very good, but good enough for people to understand.here
What happen to the Air-volley-AR15?!!

Is it a good idea to copy an upper/lower receiver in titanium 6al4v? would it be more solid?!
Link Posted: 2/4/2006 4:58:03 AM EDT

Originally Posted By AjilicQ:

What happen to the Air-volley-AR15?!!




Here is a photo taken after he gathered up the parts he could find




Click here for the Torture Test thread


Someone mentioned Ti receivers once and I think the challenge in working with it made it either impractical or too expensive.

I suppose its easier/cheaper to simply replace a $100 receiver than to try and build one that is indestructible.



Link Posted: 2/4/2006 5:05:35 AM EDT
Wow, that is pretty smashed up!!

Yeah you right, but having the right mill equipment, money, and the method of doing it I might consider it! The only issue may be the question about the law! Plus you can machine every component in that Ti-6AL4V!! That must be a dream rifle! And it won't corrode either!
Link Posted: 2/4/2006 5:31:51 AM EDT
I am going on 22 years with my SP1. It is still chuggin along and I have never had a gun related problem. Ammo and magazine problems, yes, but never gun related.

In 96, while at Silver Flag Alpha in Nevada, I was issued an ancient A1 that was damn near shot out. It was used for blank firing only. I gave it a good cleaning, lubed it up properly, and proceeded to chuck mag after mag of blanks full auto during our last big "attack". I was an AG on a 60 at the time, and the pig went tits up, but I was able to maintain so much simulated suppressive fire that the Umpires considered our position still in play, allowing all our forward positions to retrograde safely.

The guns were really worn out junk and the training cadre were damned impressed that I got one to shoot a full mag, let alone several on full auto.

Put a new barrel on that gun and I would have had no problems using it to qual.

And just how old was that gun? The lower was stamped Armalite AR15. Upper was Colt.

Link Posted: 2/4/2006 5:40:38 AM EDT

Originally Posted By redfisher:

Originally Posted By AjilicQ:
What happen to the Air-volley-AR15?!!


Here is a photo taken after he gathered up the parts he could find
img.photobucket.com/albums/v400/redfisher19/aa463c5e.jpg
Click here for the Torture Test thread
Someone mentioned Ti receivers once and I think the challenge in working with it made it either impractical or too expensive.
I suppose its easier/cheaper to simply replace a $100 receiver than to try and build one that is indestructible.



This is why carbine classes teach positive control of your weapon... This isn't positive control.

By the way, I would have caught it...
Link Posted: 2/4/2006 6:25:27 AM EDT
Personally, the only time I have seen a lower "wear out", as such, was from lower receiver erosion of the hammer and trigger pin holes---from the effect of the steel hammer-trigger pins turning/twisting in the aluminum housing. And, I suspect the two receivers that I saw like that probably had well over 100K rounds through them.

On the upper----as indicated, it's the barrel that "goes". In terms of good quality, long range, accuracy----8-10K rounds may be the life of a chrome-lined barrel. If you just want to shoot out to a couple of hundred meters with "okay" accuracty---I'd guess the barrel could go as much as 25-50K rounds before needing to be changed out.
Link Posted: 2/4/2006 11:02:50 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/4/2006 11:03:27 AM EDT by Sinister]
GI barrels approximately 5,000 - 10,000 rounds.

Upper approximately 25,000 - 50,000 depending on wear at cam pin recess.

Bolts approximately 10,000 - 15,000 rounds.

Trigger and hammer springs approximately 12,000 cycles.

Lower receiver has very little stress on it.
Link Posted: 2/4/2006 11:37:47 AM EDT

Originally Posted By AjilicQ:
Wow, that is pretty smashed up!!




But remember that the rifle in the picture isn't permanently "broken" but merely temporarily out of action - it just needs a new buffer tube and grip, and will be working perfectly again after a 5-minute installation of new parts!!

Link Posted: 2/4/2006 12:12:52 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Sinister:
GI barrels approximately 5,000 - 10,000 rounds.




Its way way higher than that.

like 25,000-50,000 rds depending on the amount of full or near to full auto fire.
Link Posted: 2/4/2006 3:51:00 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/4/2006 3:51:29 PM EDT by Bartholomew_Roberts]

Originally Posted By JBowles:

Originally Posted By Sinister:
GI barrels approximately 5,000 - 10,000 rounds.




Its way way higher than that.

like 25,000-50,000 rds depending on the amount of full or near to full auto fire.



I'd guess Sinister has more experience on this subject since he works with AMU. However, if you have a contrary experience, I'd love to hear it.

I suspect part of it might be defined by how you use the barrels. My 16" Bushy HBAR made it about 6k and then accuracy at longer ranges (600yds) started to fall off. By 9k I decided to replace the barrel; though the barrel still shot fine at 100yds.
Link Posted: 2/4/2006 5:33:57 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Bartholomew_Roberts:

Originally Posted By JBowles:

Originally Posted By Sinister:
GI barrels approximately 5,000 - 10,000 rounds.




Its way way higher than that.

like 25,000-50,000 rds depending on the amount of full or near to full auto fire.



I'd guess Sinister has more experience on this subject since he works with AMU. However, if you have a contrary experience, I'd love to hear it.

I suspect part of it might be defined by how you use the barrels. My 16" Bushy HBAR made it about 6k and then accuracy at longer ranges (600yds) started to fall off. By 9k I decided to replace the barrel; though the barrel still shot fine at 100yds.



Well I bet our defination of a servicable barrel varys a bit.

but for refernce

www.bushmaster.com/faqnew/content_by_cat.asp?contentid=173&catid=100

I cant find the thread but a test was done with DPMS 1:9 4140 non cromed barrels where they would shoot 200 rounds FA let the gun cool run a boresnake though and do it angain, these barrels where lasting between 17000 and 21000 rounds, I have no doubt a Milspec barrel shot on semi only would last 50000 rds before it wasnt worth shooting at someone.
Link Posted: 2/4/2006 6:15:12 PM EDT

Originally Posted By JBowles:

Well I bet our defination of a servicable barrel varys a bit.

but for refernce

www.bushmaster.com/faqnew/content_by_cat.asp?contentid=173&catid=100

I cant find the thread but a test was done with DPMS 1:9 4140 non cromed barrels where they would shoot 200 rounds FA let the gun cool run a boresnake though and do it angain, these barrels where lasting between 17000 and 21000 rounds, I have no doubt a Milspec barrel shot on semi only would last 50000 rds before it wasnt worth shooting at someone.



Welll, Bushmaster's note seems to pretty well mirror my experience with their barrel, except that copper fouling was certainly not the problem with my barrel.

As for that barrel thread, I've handled the same barrels mentioned in that thread personally. Not all of those barrels made 21k rounds. I was told at least one died before it hit 4.5k (i.e. burst wide open, not just inaccurate). Also, there is no accuracy requirement for those barrels. They can keyhole rounds and still be serviceable for what they are being used for.
Link Posted: 2/5/2006 2:16:10 AM EDT
Wow, that is very much compared to a sniper rifle only holding up around 5000-10000 MAX!

By the way, no one answer the question in detail about the effect generated by the powerful 308win. There must be some more stress on the upper and lower when shooting with 308win, since the upper/lower are the same material 7075T6?? [³²¹]
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