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Posted: 1/29/2006 1:09:07 PM EDT
The AR15 is an awesome rifle. It is the most ergonomic rifle I have ever fired. It is accurate and handles well. It is reliable enough to get the job done. However, with common ammo currently available it seems to force the user to make some trade offs:

If you want maximize your ability to defeat cover, you must go to a SS109 or M855 type round. You get good penetration. But, you give up lethality on targets in the open.

If you want to maximize lethality vs. an adversary in the open, you chose the M193 round. This gives you a very effective fighting rifle at 125 yards. Of course, it is still lethal at longer distances. But, you loose the ability of the bullet to fragment. With the M193 you give up the ability to penetrate cover as much as in the M855.

With a .308 or 30-06 you get the best of both worlds. You can have excellent target incapacitation at short or long distances AND the ability to penetrate cover. You loose the ability to carry as much ammo as the man with the AR15. And, you will be slower engaging multiple targets. Smaller shooters will have more trouble with the larger rounds. Even larger people will tend to shoot the .223 more accurate do to the lower recoil.

Summary: AR15 is easy to shoot well. The commonly available ammo must be chosen based on tradeoffs between penetration and target incapacitation. The .30 rounds penetrate and incapacitate better. But, they have limitations in firepower and practical accuracy for many people. Neither one is perfect.
Link Posted: 1/29/2006 1:24:20 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/29/2006 1:24:48 PM EDT by ALPHAGHOST]
obervation or a question?

just about everything in the world is a compromise....
Link Posted: 1/29/2006 1:29:57 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/29/2006 1:30:19 PM EDT by JaketheSnake]

Originally Posted By ALPHAGHOST:
obervation or a question?

just about everything in the world is a compromise....


That's right, until we get plasma rifles in the 40 watt range, you'll just have to make due. For an all purpose rifle the AR is hands down a great choice for whatever the mission calls for. It excells in some areas and falls short in other areas. But that is the same with any rifle.
Link Posted: 1/29/2006 1:50:07 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/29/2006 1:50:47 PM EDT by Bill2k]
im just glad to see that this is someone posting with an understanding that all rifles have flaws and that no single rifle is the perfect weapon for any circumstance...when i saw the title i thought to myself..here we go again... but after reading i was pleasantly surprised
Link Posted: 1/29/2006 1:53:56 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Bill2k:
im just glad to see that this is someone posting with an understanding that all rifles have flaws and that no single rifle is the perfect weapon for any circumstance...when i saw the title i thought to myself..here we go again... but after reading i was pleasantly surprised



What are you talking about? All my rifles are perfect. They do exactly what I want them to do, punch holes in paper.

If I ever have to kill a guy, I want to do it with my bare hands. That way I can see the look in his eyes as he's about to die.

<­BR>
I'm not really insane, I just play it on AR15.com...
Link Posted: 1/29/2006 2:06:35 PM EDT

Originally Posted By dave3006:
The AR15 is an awesome rifle. It is the most ergonomic rifle I have ever fired. It is accurate and handles well. It is reliable enough to get the job done. However, with common ammo currently available it seems to force the user to make some trade offs:

If you want maximize your ability to defeat cover, you must go to a SS109 or M855 type round. You get good penetration. But, you give up lethality on targets in the open.

M855 is a poor barrier round at it sheds the penetrator and has rather poor performance on tissue after penetrating intermediate barriers

If you want to maximize lethality vs. an adversary in the open, you chose the M193 round. This gives you a very effective fighting rifle at 125 yards. Of course, it is still lethal at longer distances. But, you loose the ability of the bullet to fragment. With the M193 you give up the ability to penetrate cover as much as in the M855.

M193 penetrates cover better than M855 at the 125 yard ranges you speak of.

With a .308 or 30-06 you get the best of both worlds. You can have excellent target incapacitation at short or long distances AND the ability to penetrate cover. You loose the ability to carry as much ammo as the man with the AR15. And, you will be slower engaging multiple targets. Smaller shooters will have more trouble with the larger rounds. Even larger people will tend to shoot the .223 more accurate do to the lower recoil.

Summary: AR15 is easy to shoot well. The commonly available ammo must be chosen based on tradeoffs between penetration and target incapacitation. The .30 rounds penetrate and incapacitate better. But, they have limitations in firepower and practical accuracy for many people. Neither one is perfect.

Link Posted: 1/29/2006 2:54:14 PM EDT
After firing 200 rounds out of my 30-06 my shoulder was bruised badly, and it hurt every time I fired.

I can shoot a .223 all day long for days and never get a bruise.


A 06 or .308 is best for sniping IMO. 1 shot 1 kill.

.223 = more firepower and easier to carry ammo. Use it for CQB.


Just my idea on the weapons.
Link Posted: 1/29/2006 3:40:48 PM EDT
I would say that like the above posters, I think every firearm has a purpose and the AR-15 does its very well. That said, if I HAD to choose one SHTF (I mean a lot of S hitting the F, like the 2nd revolution or something) firearm, it would probably be an M1A or FAL .308 for it's versatility in pentration, distance effectiveness, and wound ballistics. Luckily, I don't have to choose just one. In true SHTF, I would want a handgun for close in protection, an AR for patrol work, a .308 for taking out the bad guys before they could get me with their carbines, and maybe a scoped .30-06 (or .308 to avoid adding another caliber) bolt rifle for long distance.
Link Posted: 1/29/2006 7:27:09 PM EDT
My SHTF plan is to use my Garand in the daytime because of the superior penetration and incapacitation aspects of the 30-06 round. At night, I will use my Eotech / AR15 due to the vastly better handling characteristics and superior sighting.

That is my plan. I brought my M1 Garand to an "urban rifle" class once. It kept up well until the night shoot. The red dot scoped ARs ruled.

Link Posted: 1/29/2006 7:49:10 PM EDT
The M-16 design is IDEAL because it is intended for a squad/platoon where there are heavier caliber support weapons that can provide the functions that the M16/M4 may not be ideal at. The additional weight savings of the 5.56 vs. 7.62 are also an important logistical issue that may be more important to the military.

For an individual, then you have to start thinking very carefully about what your needs are, and what tradeoffs you are willing to live with.
Link Posted: 1/29/2006 8:26:04 PM EDT
All commando fantasies aside, consider what type of situation the average citizen would have to use a rifle for a serious purpose. For almost any situation you can think of, the AR platform is as perfect as it gets. I don't see making an 800m shot against heavy cover being a real likely situation for the deployment of a rifle for lawful purposes.
Link Posted: 1/29/2006 8:34:39 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/29/2006 8:35:17 PM EDT by dave3006]
Katrina proves that SHTF is not fantasy commando stuff. Sure, 800 round shots are not realistic. But, you may NEED to shoot through a car, fence, or similar object 50 yards away to stop a threat. When the shooting starts, that is when people hide behind things.

The AR15 is by far my favorite rifle. The Garand is a close second. Both will fill a specific role for me if things ever get crazy like they did when the Rodney King riots hit.
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