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Posted: 1/24/2006 8:27:01 PM EDT
I'm a noob who's been thinking about an AR15 purchase for 20 years. But, 4 weeks ago I was at a gun auction and I bought 2 'cause I had to.ht
Pics here: Click Here

My questions are:

1) Is this an A2 Lower mixed with an A1 Upper? (no fwd asst, et al.)

2) It's marked 223 and I have been shooting XM193... Is this OK?

http://www.auctionadvisory.com/ar15/ar15colt3.jpg

http://www.auctionadvisory.com/ar15/ar15colt4.jpg



Link Posted: 1/24/2006 8:39:23 PM EDT
One more question....

Is this a 6500?
Link Posted: 1/24/2006 8:42:11 PM EDT
That is CLEARLY not an A2 lower. Note the old style front pivot pin (no reenforcements), note the lack of magazine release fence (which actually started on the M16A1s), and the lack of the reenforced rear for the receiver extension. Also on A2 lowers you generally cannot see the area where the rear takedown pin detent is housed (in the earlier lowers that area is raised).

Yes it's ok to shoot 5.56 in a Colt barrel. Is the barrel marked .223 or the lower?
Link Posted: 1/24/2006 8:48:08 PM EDT
I guess I'm confused...

Doesn't this mean it's an A2 lower (AR-15 A2) ...?

http://www.auctionadvisory.com/ar15/ar15colt5.jpg

Link Posted: 1/24/2006 8:55:02 PM EDT

Originally Posted By thanegrooms:
I guess I'm confused...

Doesn't this mean it's an A2 lower (AR-15 A2) ...?

www.auctionadvisory.com/ar15/ar15colt5.jpg




LOL! No!

You'll learn this about Colts. They like to use up old stock willy nilly even when putting out new models. At one time that SP1 lower might have had an A2 upper (hence the markings) but it is NOT an 'A2 Lower'. Looks like someone used the lower to make a retro M16/M203 combo.

I'm sure some of the Colt experts will chime in tomorrow with the details on how/why Colt does this kind of thing.
Link Posted: 1/24/2006 8:57:46 PM EDT
what was it that someone once told me? "In Colt, all things are possible"

It looks to me like the "2" is rollmarked a little deeper than the rest of the lettering. I might be looking too deep into things.
Link Posted: 1/24/2006 8:59:44 PM EDT
Here are pics of an proper A2 lower:


Compare the rounded lower portion of the front take down pin of the above lower to the squared off one on yours. Also note how thick (see the band) the area is around the area where the receiver extension is screwed in (next to the buttstock).


Now on the other side you can clearly see the fence around the magazine release. Also note there is no horizontal raised area leading to the rear detent pin from the stock. But note the entire area is built up (reenforced). Also note the selector markings on this side.
Link Posted: 1/24/2006 9:01:23 PM EDT
I'd also point out that in 1974 there was no 'M16A2' - I'm hoping coldblue will chime in with dates (as the M16A2 was his baby).
Link Posted: 1/24/2006 9:08:46 PM EDT
First I would like to say WOW!!!!! You should have been playing the lottery.

Your Colt looks exactly like my SP1 except for the SPORTER II on the receiver. Slick sided receiver, no fwd. assist, and no shell deflector. The lower has no mag fence, and has the take down screw instead of a push pin. Is it a large hole receiver? My SP1 is a large hole. That might be the change from the SP1 model. I bought mine in "73" for $239.00 and I do not know the model numbers.
Using mil spec ammo in the .223 should be fine. I bought surplus ammo after Viet Nam and have never had a problem with any of it. The dimensional differences are very small. I don't really think that when your or my rifle were built they really differentiated between .223 and 5.56 mm.
Link Posted: 1/24/2006 9:10:34 PM EDT
Thanks Forest.

I guess for the near term, my statements of fact will be in the form of questions.hat
Or more correctly... Is this a 1974?

Link Posted: 1/24/2006 9:15:34 PM EDT

Originally Posted By alex_all_alone:
It looks to me like the "2" is rollmarked a little deeper than the rest of the lettering. I might be looking too deep into things.



Now that you mention it... That 2 does look a little "post production"
Link Posted: 1/24/2006 9:16:57 PM EDT

Originally Posted By thanegrooms:
By the SN it should be 1974.



If that is so (and I wouldn't know I'm no Colt expert) than the AR15A2 would not imply a direct relationship with the M16A2 as the lowers are very different. I'm sure guys like Ekie will have the scoop come morning. Or you could post this in the Colt forum in the Industry section, I find the guys there know their Colts.
Link Posted: 1/24/2006 9:21:40 PM EDT

Looks like someone used the lower to make a retro M16/M203 combo.


It was a Stembridge Movie Rental Gun, so this would make sense.
Link Posted: 1/24/2006 9:23:14 PM EDT
tag for answers
Link Posted: 1/24/2006 9:23:47 PM EDT
It looks like a Colt 6551 Lower, I have seen a few 6551's with A-1 Uppers
Link Posted: 1/24/2006 10:23:16 PM EDT
It's a Colt R6500 A2 which was made from '84 to '89.

I had one of these in '85 which was the next model I bought after my former '71 SP-1.

It came with the A2 1/7 barrel, FS, handguards, delta ring, grip and buttstock but it had the older A1 upper with forward assist and A1 lower (without mag fence).

The Colt SP-1 is the only model available in '74 if I remember correctly.


Ref. Biggerhammer.net link


Link Posted: 1/24/2006 10:30:35 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Alpha-Romeo3:
It's a Colt R6500 A2 which was made from '84 to '89.

I had one of these in '85 which was the next model I bought after my former '71 SP-1.

It came with the A2 1/7 barrel, FS, handguards, delta ring, grip and buttstock but it had the older A1 upper with forward assist and A1 lower (without mag fence).

The Colt SP-1 is the only model available in '74 if I remember correctly.

Ref. Biggerhammer.net link



I have looked at that grid on biggerhammer several times and it just does not add up with this serial number.
Link Posted: 1/24/2006 10:43:06 PM EDT

I have looked at that grid on biggerhammer several times and it just does not add up with this serial number.


Oops... My SN is a 6 digit number. The previous owner thought this was a '74,.... and it was sold to me as such. Maybe since they were going for the retro build, it just became a '74 in their mind?
Link Posted: 1/24/2006 10:50:45 PM EDT

Originally Posted By thanegrooms:

Originally Posted By Alpha-Romeo3:
It's a Colt R6500 A2 which was made from '84 to '89.

I had one of these in '85 which was the next model I bought after my former '71 SP-1.

It came with the A2 1/7 barrel, FS, handguards, delta ring, grip and buttstock but it had the older A1 upper with forward assist and A1 lower (without mag fence).

The Colt SP-1 is the only model available in '74 if I remember correctly.

Ref. Biggerhammer.net link



I have looked at that grid on biggerhammer several times and it just does not add up with this serial number.



Take a look at the serial numbers below the year 1978 of the Biggerhammer page, the eight line below the '78 which shows "SP360200 and Below".

There were no AR-15A2 made yet in '74, only SP-1 model back then.

The upper of your rifle is not original because there is no forward assist and looks like they used a SP-1 upper with M203 hardware.

If your barrel is still original it should be 1/7 twist and marked on top of the barrel, in front of the front sight.

I remember the Sporter II came out in '84 when I moved from Washington state to California, I wanted to buy it then but have to buy mine one year later when I had more money.
Link Posted: 1/24/2006 11:04:03 PM EDT
Alpha_Romeo3,

I think I agree with you. But, as alex stated....


Originally Posted By alex_all_alone:
what was it that someone once told me? "In Colt, all things are possible"

It looks to me like the "2" is rollmarked a little deeper than the rest of the lettering. I might be looking too deep into things.



And look at this closeup of the stamp... Looks like a re-do (see grinding marks?)

http://www.auctionadvisory.com/ar15/ar15close.jpg
Link Posted: 1/24/2006 11:44:59 PM EDT

Originally Posted By thanegrooms:
Alpha_Romeo3,

I think I agree with you. But, as alex stated....


Originally Posted By alex_all_alone:
what was it that someone once told me? "In Colt, all things are possible"

It looks to me like the "2" is rollmarked a little deeper than the rest of the lettering. I might be looking too deep into things.



And look at this closeup of the stamp... Looks like a re-do (see grinding marks?)

www.auctionadvisory.com/ar15/ar15close.jpg




The SP-II were really marked same as yours as you could see from this picture from AR-15.com Lower Receiver & Mag Floorplate Rollmarks, Logos and Markings thread in the Rifles, Uppers, Lowers, Barrels and More forum (link).

The grind marks are so shallow that it doesn't look like they tried to alter the markings.

Even when Colt released their real AR-15A2 uppers in '86 which I bought the H-BAR model, the lower was the same as yours which was the A1 type without the mag fence.

It was in '88 when Colt came out with all A2 features which was the model R6550 Gov't Model.

Your rifle looks great and a good buy.
Link Posted: 1/25/2006 3:45:32 AM EDT
You got a smokin' deal
Enjoy the Colt, half the fun of a Colt is trying to figure why they do what they do
Link Posted: 1/25/2006 7:20:43 AM EDT
In keeping with the original line of questions.....

My Sporter II is a s/n SP32xxxx range, what would have been the likely upper on this? I realize a 20", but would it have had A1 or A2 sights, and the round HG's? The lower is an A1, slabside, large hole.

Its sprorting an A1 no FA, 20" w/ triangle HG's now.

Thanks in advance,
Link Posted: 1/25/2006 7:35:00 AM EDT
I bought a new 16" inch AR-15A2 Sporter II carbine in 1986. It had an A1 lower, slabside, large hole. The upper had A1 sights, but it did have tear drop FA.

It appears to me that you have an 1985-88 factory Colt.
Link Posted: 1/25/2006 7:52:52 AM EDT
The Colt AR-15A2 SPORTER II has been messed with. At least the barrel, handguards, buttstock, and grip have been swapped out for older parts. The lower should date from 85-86 (would have to look it up to be sure).

That said, it is possible that this rifle left the factory like that, but the odds are very remote, it is just not a good idea to say "never" when it comes to Colt.

The Carbine is total custom job, no way to know what all the parts are till you get it and go threw it. The upper receiver appears to be a mid to late 1960's though, those are hard to find.
Link Posted: 1/25/2006 8:16:55 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/25/2006 9:35:11 AM EDT by thanegrooms]

Originally Posted By Ekie:
The Colt AR-15A2 SPORTER II has been messed with. At least the barrel, handguards, buttstock, and grip have been swapped out for older parts. The lower should date from 85-86 (would have to look it up to be sure).

That said, it is possible that this rifle left the factory like that, but the odds are very remote, it is just not a good idea to say "never" when it comes to Colt.

The Carbine is total custom job, no way to know what all the parts are till you get it and go threw it. The upper receiver appears to be a mid to late 1960's though, those are hard to find.



Thanks. I re-labeled it on the page... Click Here

The Carbine is starting to grow on me. The only thing I don't like is the flash hider is fixed.

Link Posted: 1/25/2006 8:29:32 AM EDT

Originally Posted By thanegrooms:
...The Carbine is starting to grow on me.


It looks like a nice XM177E2 clone.


The hammer, trigger, safety, are all select fire type (DIAS needed),

I'd replace those NOW with standard AR parts...


The only thing I don't like is the flash hider is fixed.

It has to be unless you have a NFA tax stamp for a SBR.
Link Posted: 1/25/2006 8:38:45 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/25/2006 9:34:23 AM EDT by thanegrooms]
Well, I learned something.
Link Posted: 1/25/2006 8:46:52 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/25/2006 8:47:14 AM EDT by AssaultRifler]
Looks like a real A2 Sporter II, here's mine

Mine has the fwd assist, not all Sporter II's did.

Sporter II's weren't made until 1985 FWIW







Link Posted: 1/25/2006 8:47:49 AM EDT

Originally Posted By L0CK_N_L0AD:
In keeping with the original line of questions.....

My Sporter II is a s/n SP32xxxx range, what would have been the likely upper on this? I realize a 20", but would it have had A1 or A2 sights, and the round HG's? The lower is an A1, slabside, large hole.

Its sprorting an A1 no FA, 20" w/ triangle HG's now.

Thanks in advance,


Your rifle should likely have an A1 upper with tear drop type FA, A2 round HG and A2 1/7 twist Gov't profile barrel.

Your lower is correct with A1, slabside, large pivot hole but it should likely have an A2 grip also.

Like I posted earlier on this thread my former '85 SP-II had these features but with Colt there could be some few with different configuration.
Link Posted: 1/25/2006 8:55:30 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/25/2006 8:57:10 AM EDT by AssaultRifler]

Originally Posted By Alpha-Romeo3:
Your rifle should likely have an A1 upper with tear drop type FA, A2 round HG and A2 1/7 twist Gov't profile barrel.

Your lower is correct with A1, slabside, large pivot hole but it should likely have an A2 grip also.

Like I posted earlier on this thread my former '85 SP-II had these features but with Colt there could be some few with different configuration.



Not all sporter II's had forward assists. Mine did but it's serial number SP327xxx. Also my plunger is large round button clipped on one side, not a tear drop (see my first pic). So there's variations. Also, I've only seen an orange tipped black buffer from Colt Sporter II's and no other gun

Link Posted: 1/25/2006 8:55:45 AM EDT

Originally Posted By thanegrooms:
Damn those GDMF Gun Laws! I forgot to mention the bolt carrier is also...

Do I really have to swap out? I live in WA.



As long as WA still still part of the Union the same rules apply to you.
Link Posted: 1/25/2006 11:27:40 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/25/2006 11:34:50 AM EDT by Bumblebee_Bob]
Tag-a-rooni

Scratch that!

What I really should be saying is: "Nice rifles! That Palmeto XM177 clone is a cool gun. And you scored good on the Colt rifle! Congrats! "
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