Warning

 

Close

Confirm Action

Are you sure you wish to do this?

Confirm Cancel
Member Login
Site Notices
Posted: 1/21/2006 5:55:36 PM EDT
Given the shortage of XM193, would you trust your life to a commercial load such as American Eagle AE223 during a SHTF / home defense situation?

It has run flawlessly in my AR. The specs say it has the same muzzle velocity as M193. Although, it will probably not fragement like the M193.

What do you think? Would the bad guy know the difference?
Link Posted: 1/21/2006 6:05:58 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/21/2006 6:07:25 PM EDT by luckypunk]
Great shit.

the last case I opened has:
sealant, haven't tested it though.
NATO brass
crimped canelure

<2"@100ADL

There is an Ammo forum
Link Posted: 1/21/2006 6:07:13 PM EDT
I like the stuff. It's run in my rifles before.

Fact is, when the chips are down decent ammo that works is better than no ammo at all. As long as it cycles, you use what you have, imo.
Link Posted: 1/21/2006 6:16:39 PM EDT
Yes...never had a single problem with it.
Link Posted: 1/21/2006 7:35:52 PM EDT
Decent ammo but it wouldn't be my first choice for a SHTF situation. XM193 is not impossible to find. Just a little pricey but if you want it just to store just in case a little extra money is worth the piece of mind. I would go w/ Black Hills Blue Box over Fed AE if you cant get XM193. I keep some TAP and XM193 on hand just in case.
Link Posted: 1/21/2006 7:39:38 PM EDT
Wouldn't be my first choice, but if I didn't have a choice I'd be glad to use it.
Link Posted: 1/21/2006 7:44:26 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/21/2006 7:44:49 PM EDT by heavytank2]
+1 for black hills.

Probably go with some 77gr Sierras for a CQB type encounter, since, stability wouldn't be too large of an issue at 100ft or less with a 1:9 barrel. $22 a box of 50 at my local store, kinda pricey but worth it if all you need is a mag or two for "just incase".
Link Posted: 1/21/2006 7:56:44 PM EDT
I have had good results with American Eagle, UMC, Winchester white box, S. African battle packs, and Black Hills. Nothing bad to say about any of these.
Link Posted: 1/21/2006 8:14:30 PM EDT
+1 for AE, it rules for plinking and the 55gr should be fine for self defense. I've purchased probably 4000 rnds of 55gr and 62gr over the last couple years and I've yet to see a single problem which is amazing.

Shot some 55gr out to 700 yds today and it didn't drop nearly as fast as I thought it would, it was a lot of fun. Normally I use it for 75yd and 100yd shooting and have a lot of fun.


- rem
Link Posted: 1/21/2006 8:24:26 PM EDT
Black Hills OTM would be my first choice, with Q3131 running close second.
Link Posted: 1/21/2006 8:44:41 PM EDT
I trust my life to God and proper shot placement. It wouldn't be my first choice, but I've got someAE223 laying around that I wouldn't hesitate to use if there was no choice.

I'm with heavytank2 in that I would spend a little more to get a premium round like the 68-77 grain from Black Hills if money were an issue. A mag or 2 of the good stuff and making sure it will function in your weapon is money well spent.


XM193 and Q3131A still dominate my stockpiles, but I have no shame in shooting just about anything.
Link Posted: 1/21/2006 8:48:27 PM EDT

Originally Posted By dave3006:
...The specs say it has the same muzzle velocity as M193. ...?



Umm I don't know what 'Specs' your reading buy my chrono puts the AE at a significantly lower MV.

Don't confuste the 3200fps from a 24" test barrel for the AE vs the 3200 fps M193 spec from a 20" GI barrel. That's apples to oranges.

BTW AE will fragment somewhat, there was a recent post on it as well as test results on Federal's website.

Not my first choices. But if I used up my first choice (all my 75gr stocks) then my secondary stocks (Q3131A - the IMI M193), and I had to choose between AE or Wolf or Remington 55gr I'd take the AE.
Link Posted: 1/21/2006 8:51:01 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Forest:

Originally Posted By dave3006:
...The specs say it has the same muzzle velocity as M193. ...?



Don't confuste the 3200fps from a 24" test barrel for the AE vs the 3200 fps M193 spec from a 20" GI barrel. That's apples to oranges.



Indeed.

From Bushmaster's website, they have 3315 fps for M193 fired through 24" barrel. (3259 fps through 20" barrel)
Link Posted: 1/21/2006 8:53:28 PM EDT
Yes I would
Link Posted: 1/21/2006 9:09:08 PM EDT
It's Federal. That means that it is quality. Yes, I prefer XM193, but I'm hoarding that stuff right now. I wouldn't feel uneasy using AE. Me and some pals shot an IPSC rifle match with nothing but AE and had no problems. And these rifles were dirty!
Link Posted: 1/21/2006 9:17:04 PM EDT
It's good ammo, I used about 1600rds of it during a class... No problems.

I would run with anything as long as it isn't the 62gr green tip.

Shot placement is really the key though.
Link Posted: 1/21/2006 10:07:48 PM EDT
yup, no prolems here.
Link Posted: 1/21/2006 11:30:11 PM EDT
if it does damage, yeah


i'd take a .22lr if thats what was left, hell even rocks
Link Posted: 1/22/2006 2:40:10 AM EDT

Originally Posted By AcidGambit:
It's good ammo, I used about 1600rds of it during a class... No problems.

I would run with anything as long as it isn't the 62gr green tip.

Shot placement is really the key though.



1st - wow! 1,600 rounds is a busy class.

and 2nd, what problems do you have w/ green tip?
Link Posted: 1/22/2006 4:54:41 AM EDT
The Federal datasheet shows the velocity approximately the same

http://www.miragetechnologies.net/PDF%20Files/XM193%20Spec%20Sheet.pdf

Unfortunately, they appear to be using different length barrels! Like a previous poster said, apples and oranges. When they say "AR15" barrel, I am guessing this means the comparison was between a 24" and a 20" barrel.

Link Posted: 1/22/2006 5:20:21 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Forest:

Originally Posted By dave3006:
...The specs say it has the same muzzle velocity as M193. ...?



Umm I don't know what 'Specs' your reading buy my chrono puts the AE at a significantly lower MV.

Don't confuste the 3200fps from a 24" test barrel for the AE vs the 3200 fps M193 spec from a 20" GI barrel. That's apples to oranges.



Thanks! I'm glad somebody pointed that out!

w00t!
Link Posted: 1/22/2006 5:23:52 AM EDT

Originally Posted By AcidGambit:

I would run with anything as long as it isn't the 62gr green tip.




Green tip is my last choice too, but I wouldn't throw my weapon down and run if that's all that I had!

I'm always amazed at the people who actually want that ammo on this site!
Link Posted: 1/22/2006 6:35:40 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/22/2006 6:48:34 AM EDT by forgiver]
In response to the original question, if AE .223 is sufficiently hot to cycle reliably, it would probably work just fine.

I cache XM193 for SHTF, even if only about 1500 rounds. I also pick up Remington UMC and store/shoot it as needed.

For home defense I have a few mags of XM193 around, but my load of choice is a Winchester 40gr HP because I could double-tap an intruder and get the job done while not having to worry about the round reaching some unintended target down the road. I only have two mags loaded with these HP's, and I keep going back and forth between keeping it for HD or blasting it downrange forever. Lastly, I used Wolf 55gr for some double-tap and hammer training yesterday and it worked out really well. Inside of 25ft, Wolf would ruin your day too.
Link Posted: 1/22/2006 7:31:30 AM EDT

Originally Posted By demigod:

Originally Posted By AcidGambit:

I would run with anything as long as it isn't the 62gr green tip.




Green tip is my last choice too, but I wouldn't throw my weapon down and run if that's all that I had!

I'm always amazed at the people who actually want that ammo on this site!



My first tier HD ammo is M855. The reason is I have current production IMI M855 and it gets bumped to the top over the XM193 only because of consistency and reliability issues.
Link Posted: 1/22/2006 7:33:12 AM EDT

Originally Posted By forgiver:
In response to the original question, if AE .223 is sufficiently hot to cycle reliably, it would probably work just fine.

I cache XM193 for SHTF, even if only about 1500 rounds. I also pick up Remington UMC and store/shoot it as needed.

For home defense I have a few mags of XM193 around, but my load of choice is a Winchester 40gr HP because I could double-tap an intruder and get the job done while not having to worry about the round reaching some unintended target down the road. I only have two mags loaded with these HP's, and I keep going back and forth between keeping it for HD or blasting it downrange forever.

Lastly, I used Wolf 55gr for some double-tap and hammer training yesterday and it worked out really well. Inside of 25ft, Wolf would ruin your day too.






You are kidding right?
Link Posted: 1/22/2006 7:35:17 AM EDT
Dam, I think 3 well placed shots center mast of anything would take someone down?
Link Posted: 1/22/2006 7:47:08 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Stove_Pipe:

hock.gifhock.gifhock.gif

You are kidding right?



A little. haps
Really though, does anyone here have any real world data that 6-7" of penetration on a badguy is insufficient? I have a hard time seeing that this would not be sufficient to stop an intruder.

I pay careful attention to what those in the know say about ammunition on this forum, and I am very close to blasting it away purely because 99% of the folks here advise against 40gr HP for anything other than varmints. I only have 40 rounds or so...
Link Posted: 1/22/2006 7:58:27 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Rush0212:
Dam, I think 3 well placed shots center mast of anything would take someone down?



But with the pitch and yaw of the ship, 3 shots center mast could take a whole mag to do. Or were you thinking center mass?
Link Posted: 1/22/2006 8:19:04 AM EDT
Link Posted: 1/22/2006 8:38:08 AM EDT
Link Posted: 1/22/2006 8:47:47 AM EDT

Originally Posted By HeavyMetal:

Really though, does anyone here have any real world data that 6-7" of penetration on a badguy is insufficient? I have a hard time seeing that this would not be sufficient to stop an intruder.


You are presuming he is going to present a target chest forward with nothing between you and the chest.

What if he is bladed and has an arm between you and his side? That puts his vitals beyond the maximum penetration you specified.



Point well taken HeavyMetal. I had not thought of it from that perspective, no pun intended. An intermediary obstacle does completely change the capability of the round. Ok, varmints only for the 40gr HP, just like the box said.
Link Posted: 1/22/2006 9:06:40 AM EDT
I dont think you BAD GUY could tell if he was Hit in the head with AE 55 or M193

IS MONEY A FACTOR?

AE55 wouldnt be my first pick but if you cant get M193/M855/ss109 then go for it

Might try BTHP/SP

Federals 69bthp shoots great out of 1/9 bushwacker that I had
Link Posted: 1/22/2006 9:18:33 AM EDT
Critera for "SHTF" ammo.

1. Is it the right caliber for my rifle or pistol? "Yes"

2. Proceed to use it.

These discussions slay me. Are you people actually saying, that in a true "SHTF" or "TEOTWAWKI" situation, you're going to be an ammo snob?

"Oh, I know I'm totally out of Gucci ammo, but I'm not going to use (fill in the blank) because some guy on the retardweb said (fill in the blank) about it."

I trust my life to me. Not my rifles, my pistols, my ammunition, etc. Me.
Link Posted: 1/22/2006 9:25:55 AM EDT

Originally Posted By FMJ:
I dont think you BAD GUY could tell if he was Hit in the head with AE 55 or M193

IS MONEY A FACTOR?

AE55 wouldnt be my first pick but if you cant get M193/M855/ss109 then go for it

Might try BTHP/SP

Federals 69bthp shoots great out of 1/9 bushwacker that I had



What do you think of Federal's GMM rounds with the69 grainers? shot out of a 16", as THE ammo to use in the life or death situation. Apart from the price, of course.... I believe, you'll never shoot more than 5 or 6 rounds anyway, we're not in f**ing sandbox here so the 23$ per box aint an issue
Link Posted: 1/22/2006 10:02:30 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/22/2006 10:04:11 AM EDT by FMJ]
FEDERALS 69gr BTHPMATCH would be a good pick if you have a 1/9 twist.

with 1/7 twist you can go to 77grOTM!

But yes I Do feel safe with my1/9 15 inch plus bird cage A1 Shorty w/ ML2 loaded with FEDS 69BTHPM or M193

Link Posted: 1/22/2006 10:29:06 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Stove_Pipe:
The reason is I have current production IMI M855 and it gets bumped to the top over the XM193 only because of consistency and reliability issues.



M855 has some serious terminal performance constistancies thanks to it's complex SS109 projectile.

XM193 might have some MV consistancy issues, but it's more predictable in what the results will be. Considering the ranges for home defense. Any variances in MV won't be an issue for shot placement or terminal performance.
Link Posted: 1/22/2006 10:31:54 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Rush0212:
Dam, I think 3 well placed shots center mast of anything would take someone down?



The question then becomes will you get 3 shots, let alone 3 well placed shots?

That why each shot counts - you can't rely on a 3rd or even a 2nd shot.
Link Posted: 1/22/2006 10:34:44 AM EDT

Originally Posted By forgiver:
Really though, does anyone here have any real world data that 6-7" of penetration on a badguy is insufficient? I have a hard time seeing that this would not be sufficient to stop an intruder.
..



Yes, I'd suggest you get a copy of (and READ) Dr Andersons foresic review of the Miami Shootout (do not read near a meal time ). (Anderson, W. French, M.D.: Forensic Analysis of the April 11, 1986, FBI Firefight. W. French Anderson, M.D., 1996 (127 pages, paperback)

Insufficient penetration of a 9mm silvertip was an issue. The round passed through and arm before making into the body cavity (a common occurance).
Link Posted: 1/22/2006 10:37:04 AM EDT

Originally Posted By FMJ:
I dont think you BAD GUY could tell if he was Hit in the head with AE 55 or M193




Well trained snipers rarely take head shots - what makes you think you'll be able to hit a small moving target at O'dark thirty when you've just been woken up and possibly your muscles are shaking due to the adrenaline rush.

Leave the movie tactics for Rambo..
Top Top