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Posted: 1/19/2006 7:39:54 PM EDT
What are your opinions about the Bushmaster Carbon 15 M4 series? Any pros from buying these rather than the conventional A3M4s? Also, there are 2 versions, the flat-top and the one with the high rail, which one would be a better buy? Thanks in advance.
Link Posted: 1/20/2006 3:40:50 AM EDT
do a search on it


but for the most part, they have their problems. if you still decide to get one go with the flattop model since it will offer a wider option for mounting optics
Link Posted: 1/20/2006 4:04:39 AM EDT
You should buy one!
Link Posted: 1/20/2006 4:44:12 AM EDT
I really like them, my buddy has one and we've beat on it with no issues encountered yet.


- rem
Link Posted: 1/20/2006 5:01:00 AM EDT
Link Posted: 1/20/2006 8:53:31 AM EDT

Originally Posted By bigbore:
Run away! Run away!



Bigbore, what sort of problems have you seen with these?
Link Posted: 1/20/2006 9:47:23 AM EDT

Originally Posted By bigbore:
Run away! Run away!



This from a VERY knowledgable vendor. Listen to him.
Link Posted: 1/20/2006 10:37:35 AM EDT
Link Posted: 1/20/2006 10:40:49 AM EDT

Originally Posted By YELLOWV:

Originally Posted By bigbore:
Run away! Run away!



This from a VERY knowledgable vendor. Listen to him.



Yeah, one who sells RRA.

If you want a lighter weight AR (the only redeeming factor of the carbon), get a pencil or fluted barrel. Why? Cause we know that works. The carbons for the most part seem to work ok, but I've seen a couple that didn't work AT ALL, with milspec mags and ammo.
Link Posted: 1/20/2006 10:53:10 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/20/2006 10:54:14 AM EDT by CBON15]
From experience, it seems the only people who have a good opinion to offer on the carbon guns are those that own one. I suppose a dealer whose customers had bad guns is justified, but 99% of the unfavorable opinions offered here come from folks who have not owned one and simply have a bias against the material. I have two, one has broken twice, and has been fixed twice. I have two aluminum guns also. They are not better, but rather just different than the carbon guns. One of them has broken also, and has been fixed. That said, I don't slam the alloy guns simply because one of mine has had problems.

The carbon guns are fun to shoot, light weight, can be easily modified like anything else, and have limitations, like anything else. My guns are toys, for sport. I don't pretend that my guns are going to be used to break down doors, used for entry breaching, or dragged through dirt and mud. They will not see tactical or sniper use, and I don't give a rats ass whether I have a BUIS to cover me if the scope malfunctions.

As stated before:

THIS IS MY GUN, THERE ARE OTHERS LIKE IT BUT THIS ONE IS MINE.
Link Posted: 1/20/2006 1:25:49 PM EDT
Thanks everyone for their infos.

BTW, does Bushmaster carbon lines share the same lower and upper receiver?
Link Posted: 1/20/2006 1:26:40 PM EDT
J-U-N-K
Link Posted: 1/20/2006 1:31:15 PM EDT
Once again.....

The AR15 was designed to be made of aluminum, not steel, not plastic, not carbon fiber.

When you make an AR15 out of anything other than aluminum you are not taking advantage of the inherent strengths of the material used.

If you designed an AR15 to be made of carbon fiber it would not look like an AR15 that is made of aluminum.

Link Posted: 1/20/2006 2:20:20 PM EDT

Originally Posted By ecmdu:
Thanks everyone for their infos.

BTW, does Bushmaster carbon lines share the same lower and upper receiver?




basically
Link Posted: 1/20/2006 2:43:56 PM EDT
When you make an AR15 out of anything other than aluminum you are not taking advantage of the inherent strengths of the material used.

No, you are not. You are making it out of something BETTER! God, I can't believe the crap I read here some of the time! Did you get your Camo panties in a knot after you washed them??? FACT, Carbon 15 material is stronger than STEEL. FACT, steel is STRONGER than Aluminum. FACT, they don't make Carbon fiber brake rotors for Formula 1 cars because they are weaker. or Carbon Monocoques to protect the driver for the same reason. Wake up. Just because you don't like, or agree with something doesn't mean it isn't right, or better. FACT. Bushmaster Carbon 15 guns are selling very well, and are working even better. FACT. They quit making the .308 and Bullpup models so they could take advantage of the floor space to produce even MORE Carbon 15 models because, THEY ARE SELLING THEM FASTER THAN THEY CAN MAKE THEM! If you don't like something, thats one thing, but don't cut it down because you lack knowledge of the said product. From your last post, you've proven that. Bill T.
Link Posted: 1/20/2006 3:27:01 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Hylton:
J-U-N-K



Again, it would help everyone here if you can state why they are junk and which model you have.
Link Posted: 1/20/2006 3:27:17 PM EDT


AVOID
Link Posted: 1/20/2006 4:03:29 PM EDT
I own one of those Bushmaster C15M4 carbines. I've had it 11 months now and ran a little over 1400 rounds through it without any problems other than some double feeds when I tried to use Colt mags in it. If I run Bushy, Okay, or DH mags, it has no problems. The pros to it are: light weight, easy to manuever in tight quarters (14.5" plus/Izzy brake), the chrome lined barrel and chamber are a plus for cleaning. The cons are: the stock single stage trigger sucks, the muzzle brake is loud and allows for large fireballs, the slightly elevated picatinny rail does not co-wittness the iron sights properly with the EOTech I mounted on it. I purchased a RRA UTE2 16" six months after the C15M4, ran just about the same number of rounds through it and overall - I like the UTE2 much, much better. It's not chrome lined, but is noticably more accurate even in my poor hands, the properly elevated picatinny rail co-witnesses the irons and my other EOTech sight 100%, it has the ejection port cover and forward assist that the Bushy does not, the 2 stage trigger is as smooth and crisp as can be. The fit and finish on the RRA is noticably better too with one exception - the bolt and bolt carrier in the Bushy are smoother and the finish holds lube better. Is the C15M4 a real rifle? Yes it is. Do I regret buying it after owning the UTE2? No. It has its place and purpose, but for as a SHTF or TEOTWAWKI rifle - get something like the UTE2 or other quality metal AR15. Hope this is some help to you.
Link Posted: 1/20/2006 5:11:00 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Nliten:
I own one of those Bushmaster C15M4 carbines. I've had it 11 months now and ran a little over 1400 rounds through it without any problems other than some double feeds when I tried to use Colt mags in it. If I run Bushy, Okay, or DH mags, it has no problems. The pros to it are: light weight, easy to manuever in tight quarters (14.5" plus/Izzy brake), the chrome lined barrel and chamber are a plus for cleaning. The cons are: the stock single stage trigger sucks, the muzzle brake is loud and allows for large fireballs, the slightly elevated picatinny rail does not co-wittness the iron sights properly with the EOTech I mounted on it. I purchased a RRA UTE2 16" six months after the C15M4, ran just about the same number of rounds through it and overall - I like the UTE2 much, much better. It's not chrome lined, but is noticably more accurate even in my poor hands, the properly elevated picatinny rail co-witnesses the irons and my other EOTech sight 100%, it has the ejection port cover and forward assist that the Bushy does not, the 2 stage trigger is as smooth and crisp as can be. The fit and finish on the RRA is noticably better too with one exception - the bolt and bolt carrier in the Bushy are smoother and the finish holds lube better. Is the C15M4 a real rifle? Yes it is. Do I regret buying it after owning the UTE2? No. It has its place and purpose, but for as a SHTF or TEOTWAWKI rifle - get something like the UTE2 or other quality metal AR15. Hope this is some help to you.



Nliten, thanks for the detailed review. I'm sure that 1.5" longer barrel of the RRA helps with the accuracy???
Link Posted: 1/20/2006 5:35:00 PM EDT
I have a Bushy Carbon Model 4 and it has been a great rifle. Bought it back in July and have over 2000 rounds through it now and only problem I have had was a couple FTE's with Wolf ammo. Now that the rifle is broken in it will shoot Wolf all day long. Its not any less reliable then any other AR, and I would trust my life on it as a home defense weapon. Only drawback I can see is the lack of foreward assist and port door, but I have not yet needed either of them.
Link Posted: 1/20/2006 6:06:24 PM EDT

J-U-N-K

AVOID



WHY Without reasons your stated opinions are pretty much worthless. Why are they J-U-N-K? Why AVOID them? What reasons? Do they jam all the time? Do they break? Do they fall apart into pieces at your feet? What is so bad about them then?
Link Posted: 1/20/2006 6:26:55 PM EDT

Originally Posted By KA3B:
Once again.....

The AR15 was designed to be made of aluminum, not steel, not plastic, not carbon fiber.

When you make an AR15 out of anything other than aluminum you are not taking advantage of the inherent strengths of the material used.

If you designed an AR15 to be made of carbon fiber it would not look like an AR15 that is made of aluminum.




We could have learned this same lesson by studying history. Knives were originally designed to be made of stone. Then we screwed up and started making them out of bronze. Now knives are made of tempered steel, and they don't much look like the original stone ones.

We did the same thing with arrowheads. History really does repeat itself.
Link Posted: 1/20/2006 6:39:59 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Unicorn:

J-U-N-K

AVOID



WHY Without reasons your stated opinions are pretty much worthless. Why are they J-U-N-K? Why AVOID them? What reasons? Do they jam all the time? Do they break? Do they fall apart into pieces at your feet? What is so bad about them then?



There is nothing wrong with Carbon 15 Bushmaster guns, except for the fact people don't want to except them. Some people. Not the majority. Proof of that is in the sales. They are booming. They said the same thing about the Glock when it was introduced. Some enjoy hitting their head with a hammer because it feels better when they stop! Bill T.
Link Posted: 1/20/2006 6:49:51 PM EDT

Originally Posted By bigbore:

Originally Posted By khadux:

Originally Posted By bigbore:
Run away! Run away!



Bigbore, what sort of problems have you seen with these?




I've had 4 unhappy customers who I sold them to. They simply dont go bang with each pull of the trigger.



I may be getting too much into technicality here but don't they use the same bolt and carrier as the standard ar?
Link Posted: 1/20/2006 7:12:40 PM EDT
I recently bought a used Bushy Carbon-15, I haven't shot it much, but it hasn't failed yet. I also have a Bushy V-Match, it has failed, but I'm not dogging it. Actually the problems I've had with it were most likely due to cheap USA Magazine brand steel mags.

If I had to choose a favorite, I'd say the CAR-15, but really only for the weight difference. The V has a 20" target barrell, and a standard full length stock. That all adds up to a lot of weight. Doesn't make it worse, just less prefferable for the shooting I do.

I like the Bushy line, but really, that's all I know.

The only other AR's I know, were Uncle Sam's, most of which were beaten and abused junk, but they still worked.

btw, I too like my glocks.
Link Posted: 1/20/2006 7:29:15 PM EDT
Funny, when the ALUMINUM / PLASTIC AR15 came out, people who thought that guns should only be made of steel and wood refused to accept IT too.
Link Posted: 1/20/2006 7:33:09 PM EDT
I say do not buy one. IMO, it is a total waste of money. The only thing that I see that the Carbon15 has going for it is the 1-2 lbs less weight it has. Is that really worth the extra $200-400? Just build your own rifle, you'll be happier and have more money to buy toys or ANOTHER rifle with.
Link Posted: 1/20/2006 8:00:13 PM EDT
This has been an interesting debate. I want to hear from some of you who owned one and have experienced problems. What are your thoughts and how was Bushmaster's customer service in terms of repairs helping you resolving the problem?
Link Posted: 1/21/2006 9:01:35 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/21/2006 9:03:35 AM EDT by DoorKicker]
Well I currently have two of the Carbon 15's from Bushmaster.

My first was the AR pistol that was my first purchase after the ban was over. I had attempted to build my own AR pistol before that but couldn't get it to function properly, and even if it would have, the weight was just too much to be worth it.

I wanted an AR pistol, but didn't like the post ban models, so as soon as the no ban model came out it was mine.

I have fired it several thousand times (I would estimate 3-4)and had no problems to speak of. It did FTF on a real dirty chamber, after about a thousands rounds. (several range trips without cleaning) I cleaned it and it was fine. Pistols seem to get dirtier then Carbines when you shoot them????? maybe it is just me?

Although I have never had a quality control problem with Bushmaster products, I have a buddy that did once (during the pre Y2K production ) and they fixed the problem first time. If I ever have to return a weapon, I feel confident that they will fix it.

This is why I went with the 9mm Carbon 15. I already had a 9mm set up that I built on a Colt 9mm LEO lower(without block) and an OLY upper. While I like it a lot, it dosen't have bolt lock open on the last shot and I have always wanted that. If the BM 9mm didn't have that option, I would have never bought it.

I have yet to fire it but like I said, IF I have problems I feel confident that BM will fix it.

I doubt that I will ever buy a regular Carbon model simply because I prefer Mil Spec AR's. But when you are talking about AR pistols and sub caliber AR's, neither is issued to the military so I figured what the heck

I guess what I am saying is that while I think that they are fine weapons, for me they don't replace the real thing but are fine additions to them.....
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