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Posted: 1/18/2006 7:08:04 AM EDT
What do the members think? Convert my AR?
Link Posted: 1/18/2006 7:43:13 AM EDT
Lightweight? GO for it!

I had a bunch of worries the whole time my carbine kit with a .525" barrel was on order, but having shot it now ~300rnds., it's the greatest thing. I still have a soft spot for HBARs, but they're clearly not needed, at least in a carbine... as far as I can tell (from the Dissy I used to own), it's just extra weight you're slinging around. I'm not exactly shooting FA, but any/all my concerns about accuracy from the thinner barrel have proven unfounded.

...or do you mean Leitner-Wise?
Link Posted: 1/18/2006 7:52:23 AM EDT
The Leitner Wise is something I plan on doing when I get the funds- only after I buy one more Bulgarian AK. It's always just one more..sickness. Anyway, my thought is that I don't see any significantly improved weapon systems being released for an affordable price to the civilian market just yet.

I truly believe that the AR design may be perhaps the most evolving design ever created. The system continually gets upgraded to make it more reliable than before, and the LW conversion, gas piston system is perhaps one of the more significant improvements. Most improvements to the system so far have been in ergonomics, rail systems, allowing for various options. The piston system improves the heart of function for the weapon, increasing an ever more reliable system.
Link Posted: 1/18/2006 8:20:31 AM EDT
Leitner-Wise
Link Posted: 1/18/2006 9:16:16 AM EDT
I had a conversion and went back to direct gas..I wont turn over the shit so it stinks but I wouldnt do it.My biggest issue was why the company had to send off my upper to be tested some where else and where I wont mention but I would think they would test it or have the ability to tets it at their factory.I know a few things now dont use 9mm buffers or AR firing pins with the conversion.I was told any carbine buffer up to H3 will work but no 9mm ones.And only mil-spec larger collar firing pins although later i was told AR pins are ok.Just get all the facts from them as far as the conversion,how long it will take and any particulars dos or donts before getting it done so you dont end up frustrated and feeling ill informed and feeling like you did something wrong even though you asked about it beforehandFrom now on Im not changing anything on my ARs until the Army or Marines officialy adopt something or at least some information on whatever they were testing performed and how it performed.Im not changing until the services officialy do...when and if they switch to gas pistons and from who is when Ill take the plunge again and only then.
Link Posted: 1/18/2006 10:11:05 AM EDT
Get the POF. At least they provide spare parts so you can self repair. Not to meantion you can maintain the piston easier with the POF
Link Posted: 1/18/2006 11:16:07 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/18/2006 11:21:20 AM EDT by Ridge]
I would go with a complete LW upper and sell your DI upper, you will end up getting a better value and have a fresh new upper.

My LW uppers are very easy to maintain. I use a big brush and brush the carbon residue off of the handguards after shooting, I wipe down the bolt and carrier (I do not dissassemble), and clean the bore as you would any other rifle. Slap on the light coat of oil just out of habit and snap her back together.

Maybe I'll take it completely apart 1/year just cuz I like to take stuff apart.

If anything breaks, I do not have to buy replacement parts, they will be provided to me under warranty.

Edited to add: The only downside with the LW is the waiting (ugh) and the price (worth it but I big chunk of change).
Link Posted: 1/18/2006 3:03:27 PM EDT
I think the gas piston AR has a future, but I would wait until LW becomes readily available, if ever, or get the POF because of easy to obtain parts. Personally, I'm sticking with my DI AR's unless the truly unthinkable happens and HK starts selling uppers/rifles to us lowly civilians.
Link Posted: 1/18/2006 3:21:04 PM EDT
Ridge: Any reliability issues with the conversion? Many poster's have mentioned that they will wait until the Armed Services take the "piston plunge"; but what about the spec-ops units that issue the LW and H&K version's? Any dealer's see any issue's?
Link Posted: 1/18/2006 3:42:34 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/18/2006 3:43:34 PM EDT by Ridge]

Originally Posted By TEMPLARKNIGHT:
Ridge: Any reliability issues with the conversion? Many poster's have mentioned that they will wait until the Armed Services take the "piston plunge"; but what about the spec-ops units that issue the LW and H&K version's? Any dealer's see any issue's?



Mine are not conversions they are complete uppers, so far I have had no issues.

I've shot wolf, Black Hills Blue Box, and Winchester White box, and Guatamalan Surplus.

Only have a few hundred round through them so far, haven't had them long.
Link Posted: 1/18/2006 3:42:55 PM EDT
What is the problem getting parts from LW? If the need ever arises for a replacement part, you contact LW and they send you a new one free of cost.
Link Posted: 1/18/2006 6:12:07 PM EDT
It's nice to have high-speed shit, but I would wait a while on this. The piston systems are really new and it seems all are proprietary (share no parts). I would wait until the market balances out and determines which systems will survive. If you think parts are scarce now, just wait 'til some of these projects go tits up and companies move on or disappear.

Cheers
Link Posted: 1/18/2006 7:10:32 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/18/2006 7:11:03 PM EDT by DevL]
The LW piston system will outlast your AR. You could wear out your rifle, buy a new one, and keep the used piston components as spares. I dont understand all the fuss over LW and spare parts. Sure thats an issue with POF as your rifle would be useless. If the world ended and my LW system went down it takes all of a single push of a pin to reconvert it back to the original DI system. POF cant do the and neither can HK. You people are paranoid and lack vision if you cant see that the investment in the piston system itslef is the only monetary risk... not the entire rifle/upper.

I second the suggestion of selling your upper and getting a complete LW rifle. LW upped the conversion price 17 days ago.
Link Posted: 1/18/2006 7:25:58 PM EDT
I will definalty be waiting for a while longer before I take the plunge.
Link Posted: 1/18/2006 8:10:06 PM EDT
LW will build an upper to your spec (for the right money). This is by far the best way to go. Converting stuff is just a crapshoot.....canted FSBs, out of spec components etc. is why the conversion price has gone up.

Either keep the DI upper for nostalgia....or sell it to fund the new one.

LW will even honour their warranty if you run non-standard parts on your AR and cause damage to it.

MisterJG and 48th will be very glad for people to sit it out for now.

Simon
Link Posted: 1/18/2006 8:21:40 PM EDT
Here is my only deal with the system. I only want it because it keeps the inside of the reciever cleaner which in turn will make it more reliable. However now you have to deal with carbon fouling under the handguards. Why don't they design a small tray running the length of the system under the handguards to keep the debris off the barrel and reduce area of exposure so you only have to clean maybe once a year? How messy is this system- at least before the carbon was contained inside the reciever, now they just moved it to a more difficult area to clean considering removal of handguards esspecially if on a free float system is a pain in the ass.

Creeper
Link Posted: 1/18/2006 8:34:13 PM EDT
Creeper.....cleaning under the handgurads is really easy with the ARM-R rail as the whole upper half is designed to be removed to give access to the gas piston.

Like this.......



This is Knob Creek's baby in her original format. He was using some filthy ammo that dumped copper particles all over the place. In a DI gun, it would be all around the bolt carrier group. That's after about 2.500 rounds.

As you see....maintenance could not be easier.

OTH if you like to really scrub.....this is not the gun for you.
Link Posted: 1/18/2006 8:34:32 PM EDT
If converting stuff is a crap shoot maybe one should not do conversions.And if certain parts are required only to use with the system while other parts should not be used that information should be given as well before one attempts a "Crap shoot" and wastes $600.If certain parts are required like say an M16 firing pin then the conversion should have the parts needed before it comes back.And if certain parts hsould not be used..knowing there are some that say use this certain part I would think the manufacturer would say something like using this part will cause damage and or increased recoil say.Of course that wouldnt be known if the system was never tested through the full spectrum of possibilities.You would simply have to wait for a problem to arise.They do test their weapons on site first dont they?
Link Posted: 1/18/2006 8:45:15 PM EDT

Originally Posted By SimonTan:
Creeper.....cleaning under the handgurads is really easy with the ARM-R rail as the whole upper half is designed to be removed to give access to the gas piston.

Like this.......

img325.imageshack.us/img325/2916/piston4wl.jpg

This is Knob Creek's baby in her original format. He was using some filthy ammo that dumped copper particles all over the place. In a DI gun, it would be all around the bolt carrier group. That's after about 2.500 rounds.

As you see....maintenance could not be easier.

OTH if you like to really scrub.....this is not the gun for you.



Incidently, the residue that is left on the barrel and FSB comes off very easily with a brush, it's not like scraping carbon off of your bolt carrier etc.

Link Posted: 1/18/2006 8:46:29 PM EDT
We have NEVER shipped a weapon that has not been tested it that i know off. That would be TOTALLY unacceptable.
Link Posted: 1/18/2006 8:54:40 PM EDT
They do test everything that goes out. BUT....when they test uppers.....it's on their own lowers with milspec H-buffer. When they shoot for fun, it's with the Enidine. It never did occur to them that someone might use a 9mm buffer.....

The moral of this tale is.....if you intend to deviate from the path, it's a good idea to ask first. That said, they still fixed the problem.

The other moral would be......get a compelte gun!

Simon
Link Posted: 1/18/2006 8:59:24 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/18/2006 9:04:47 PM EDT by DevL]

Originally Posted By Creeper:
Here is my only deal with the system. I only want it because it keeps the inside of the reciever cleaner which in turn will make it more reliable. However now you have to deal with carbon fouling under the handguards. Why don't they design a small tray running the length of the system under the handguards to keep the debris off the barrel and reduce area of exposure so you only have to clean maybe once a year? How messy is this system- at least before the carbon was contained inside the reciever, now they just moved it to a more difficult area to clean considering removal of handguards esspecially if on a free float system is a pain in the ass.

Creeper



Why do you need to clean that area to increase reliability? I am not seeing how it can possibly cause a stoppage.

Or do you mean it will no longer reliably impress your obsessive compulsive neatnick friends?
Link Posted: 1/18/2006 9:23:29 PM EDT
To Simon..if they do why did they send off my upper to grenadier precision to be tested..they told me they handle the waruntee work.My prorblem was probably the first Im sure thats why they didnt know what was going on until tested but they knew I was running one when it got to them 5 days earlier.So when you make a product dont you think every variable should be tested to know what does and does not work.If I used the buffer knowing I shouldnt then shame on me but if I use it and you the company and me dont know until there is a problem then shame on them for not testing every variable something that could have been easier to swallow had I not been made to feel I did something wrong or used the wrong parts..but if they didnt know then how would I.

If the enedine buffer is whats specified now then I couldnt have been the only one with a hard running system.Reserach and development is done before the product hits the market not after.And after everything else has anyone had any proof in the form of official reports how this system is working with the Marines.A raeson given why the conversion was taking so long.I was told they received an order for 250 to be field tested..that was seven months ago.When I see these Ill shut my pie hole and chalk it up to a learning experience.
Link Posted: 1/18/2006 9:36:32 PM EDT
Does any manufacturer test their weapon with all available parts that they don't offer or haven't endorsed?

In the automotive industry....running a non-stock part in your car that causes it to fail voids your warranty.

Grenadier is handling their warranty work....and do a very good job of it. Darren and Jesse refinished the upper for you gratis. What's not to like?

Simon
Link Posted: 1/18/2006 10:35:28 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/18/2006 10:36:42 PM EDT by DevL]
I was about to compare the warranty to cars as well. Does Ford put every availble combination of rim/tire on the car? Every exhaust every header etc? Of course not an no mabufacturer does this. What you are saying they should have done is the height of ego mania and self centeredness (is that a word?) to believe you are 'owed' or entitled to this by a manufacturer.

If you put a tiny or huge exhaust on your new Mustang and it had an emission computer error you are going to blame Ford for not thinking to try your particular brand of custom exhaust to see if it works? Ridiculous. I am goin to go out on a limb and say it would be IMPOSSIBLE for them to account for ALL variables and combinations of products.
Link Posted: 1/18/2006 11:13:37 PM EDT
I know it's been discussed before, but I read on this site so much that it's hard to keep track of EVERYTHING I've read. How do the LW uppers compare with a DI upper as far as recoil and muzzle flip. I've heard that the LW is both better and worse, depending on who's talking.
Link Posted: 1/18/2006 11:32:36 PM EDT

Originally Posted By DevL:
The LW piston system will outlast your AR. You could wear out your rifle, buy a new one, and keep the used piston components as spares. I dont understand all the fuss over LW and spare parts. Sure thats an issue with POF as your rifle would be useless. If the world ended and my LW system went down it takes all of a single push of a pin to reconvert it back to the original DI system. POF cant do the and neither can HK. You people are paranoid and lack vision if you cant see that the investment in the piston system itslef is the only monetary risk... not the entire rifle/upper.

I second the suggestion of selling your upper and getting a complete LW rifle. LW upped the conversion price 17 days ago.



Here here! Only thing holding me back aside from not having the money is what will i choose to buy once saved up. Im stuck between the full LW upper or a whole rifle. Uppers are pricey but if theyre all that ppl say they are then it would be like buying a whole new weapon itself.

Do it.....do it
Link Posted: 1/18/2006 11:52:10 PM EDT
Not without reading the LW Group Buy thread first. I know its long, but its worth it.
Link Posted: 1/19/2006 6:00:54 AM EDT
Hey, I just noticed, my 100th post on page 1 ; it took me long enough...
Link Posted: 1/19/2006 6:39:41 AM EDT

Originally Posted By pun:
To Simon..if they do why did they send off my upper to grenadier precision to be tested..they told me they handle the waruntee work.My prorblem was probably the first Im sure thats why they didnt know what was going on until tested but they knew I was running one when it got to them 5 days earlier.So when you make a product dont you think every variable should be tested to know what does and does not work.If I used the buffer knowing I shouldnt then shame on me but if I use it and you the company and me dont know until there is a problem then shame on them for not testing every variable something that could have been easier to swallow had I not been made to feel I did something wrong or used the wrong parts..but if they didnt know then how would I.

If the enedine buffer is whats specified now then I couldnt have been the only one with a hard running system.Reserach and development is done before the product hits the market not after.And after everything else has anyone had any proof in the form of official reports how this system is working with the Marines.A raeson given why the conversion was taking so long.I was told they received an order for 250 to be field tested..that was seven months ago.When I see these Ill shut my pie hole and chalk it up to a learning experience.



We (Grenadier Precision) did not perform the conversion on Pun's gun. The first time we received his upper from LW, it was sent to us so we could permantly attach a FH. Instead of just refinishing the forward part of the barrel and muzzle device, Darren and I decided to refinish his whole upper. Since the upper had already been test fired at LW we saw no need to test fire it prior to shipping.

The only reason LW sent us Pun's upper a second time was simplely because the range at which LW test fires weapons (Waldorf private range in MD I believe) was off limits for nearly a month due to deer season. Instead of making the customer wait, it was sent to us.

Link Posted: 1/19/2006 4:09:13 PM EDT

Originally Posted By misterjg:

Originally Posted By pun:
To Simon..if they do why did they send off my upper to grenadier precision to be tested..they told me they handle the waruntee work.My prorblem was probably the first Im sure thats why they didnt know what was going on until tested but they knew I was running one when it got to them 5 days earlier.So when you make a product dont you think every variable should be tested to know what does and does not work.If I used the buffer knowing I shouldnt then shame on me but if I use it and you the company and me dont know until there is a problem then shame on them for not testing every variable something that could have been easier to swallow had I not been made to feel I did something wrong or used the wrong parts..but if they didnt know then how would I.

If the enedine buffer is whats specified now then I couldnt have been the only one with a hard running system.Reserach and development is done before the product hits the market not after.And after everything else has anyone had any proof in the form of official reports how this system is working with the Marines.A raeson given why the conversion was taking so long.I was told they received an order for 250 to be field tested..that was seven months ago.When I see these Ill shut my pie hole and chalk it up to a learning experience.



We (Grenadier Precision) did not perform the conversion on Pun's gun. The first time we received his upper from LW, it was sent to us so we could permantly attach a FH. Instead of just refinishing the forward part of the barrel and muzzle device, Darren and I decided to refinish his whole upper. Since the upper had already been test fired at LW we saw no need to test fire it prior to shipping.

The only reason LW sent us Pun's upper a second time was simplely because the range at which LW test fires weapons (Waldorf private range in MD I believe) was off limits for nearly a month due to deer season. Instead of making the customer wait, it was sent to us.


I'll vouch for the range being "off limits." I shoot there too.
Link Posted: 1/19/2006 6:06:34 PM EDT
Too bad nobody told me..something so simple.And we are not talking car waruntees we are talking guns.I was told it was tested on a machine so no one ever shot it to see what I meant about the harder recoil.There is another member here that will go nameless who was told it would be a month before his upper could be tested with no explanation given at all.Something as simple as the range being closed should have been a simple enough response to him instaed of no explanation at all..secrets,secrets secrets...glad Im back to direct gas..as far as unauthorized parts if they knew the 9mm buffer shouldnt be used I take it they would have mentioned it to me when I first told them my set up wich was first told to them in a note sent with the upper before the conversion as I was asked then too how I run it and if I use anything special..the 9mm buffer was my reply.But thats ok Ill take fault for that too.
Link Posted: 1/19/2006 11:48:03 PM EDT
Link Posted: 1/20/2006 5:15:11 AM EDT
Link Posted: 1/20/2006 5:23:40 AM EDT
I think that it's a very interesting option for AR's, but until the price comes down, I cannot even entertain the ideal of getting one...I'm not made of money, regardless of what my kids think.

On the other hand, I have never had a AR go down due to fouling. I shoot alot and tend to really heat up my AR's with alot of rounds...

If I was going into combat, in a dusty enviroment, then I would take a long hard look at the LW upper..

Maybe if someone wants to buy me a conversion...
Link Posted: 1/20/2006 6:53:09 AM EDT

Originally Posted By TEMPLARKNIGHT:
What do the members think? Convert my AR?



Yes, as I have one and it works perfectly.

I would have one built up by LW.
Link Posted: 1/20/2006 7:56:23 AM EDT
I need more time on my uppers to really assess it, but right now I can't really tell much difference in recoil between an LW and a DI upper.

The recoil might be more linear in the LW system, but like I said I need more time on it.

IMO, it really is splitting hairs, if your decision to get the piston upper is based on recoil don't worry about it. get it.

Just don't use a 9mm buffer.
Link Posted: 1/20/2006 9:09:26 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Ridge:
I need more time on my uppers to really assess it, but right now I can't really tell much difference in recoil between an LW and a DI upper.

The recoil might be more linear in the LW system, but like I said I need more time on it.

IMO, it really is splitting hairs, if your decision to get the piston upper is based on recoil don't worry about it. get it.

Just don't use a 9mm buffer.



I agree. Recoil related characterisitcs is not the primary differenting factor.
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