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Posted: 1/17/2006 8:18:13 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/18/2006 5:51:16 AM EDT by WILDBILL756]
Can any body tell me where to look or post some Pictures of Delta Boys and their 15.4 M4's, I would to make a clone of their M4. I would like to build one not thhe Ranger 20. A2
Link Posted: 1/17/2006 8:22:00 PM EDT
get the DVD?

btw, did you resolve your finish issues?
Link Posted: 1/17/2006 8:41:27 PM EDT
Resove my issues with what? What in the world are talking about?
Link Posted: 1/17/2006 8:48:51 PM EDT
You know what issues you have..
Link Posted: 1/17/2006 8:55:31 PM EDT
I guess you are talking about my Colt LE6920 Problem, well I shipped it back to C.M.C. to fix it. Why does it bother everyone about my issues? I hope that Colt will make me a Happycamper and fix it for me. I am sorry that my first cup of CoolAid was Sour.
Link Posted: 1/17/2006 8:57:32 PM EDT
I already own the DVD, I just wanted to get all the details correct about delta M4.
Link Posted: 1/17/2006 9:10:13 PM EDT
Not that this is an issue or anything like that, but you might slow down enough to allow your typing finger to catch up with your brain. Then we might be able to truly understand what the f*ck you are trying to say.

Just a suggestion
Link Posted: 1/17/2006 9:14:30 PM EDT


looks like an A2 upper with regular handguards, regular oldschool colt stock ,an aimpoint (which isn't period correct, atleast the model in the movie isn't),14.5 A2 flash suppressor, and a barrel mounted light mount.

most of the delta members had commando uppers.



many pics of delta
Link Posted: 1/17/2006 9:30:51 PM EDT

Originally Posted By netwt12:
www.webbedcrow.com/fichtnerfansite/film/bhdown/bhd_se01.jpg

looks like an A2 upper with regular handguards, regular oldschool colt stock ,an aimpoint (which isn't period correct, atleast the model in the movie isn't),14.5 A2 flash suppressor, and a barrel mounted light mount.

most of the delta members had commando uppers.

www.webbedcrow.com/fichtnerfansite/film/bhdown/bhdown_024.jpg

many pics of delta




An M4 is not period correct for Blackhawk Down.
Link Posted: 1/17/2006 9:37:41 PM EDT
The Army didn't have any M4s by then? The Marine Corps has had them since 86.
Link Posted: 1/17/2006 9:41:02 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/17/2006 9:43:59 PM EDT by scottryan]
We went over this in five pages of topic last year with this exact same topic about Blackhawk Down.

The M4 didn't exist until 1994.
Link Posted: 1/17/2006 9:42:53 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:
The Army didn't have any M4s by then? The Marine Corps has had them since 86.



Just because something has an M4 type barrel or a carbine is in the hand of a US serviceman, doesn't make it an M4.
Link Posted: 1/17/2006 10:33:49 PM EDT

Originally Posted By scottryan:

Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:
The Army didn't have any M4s by then? The Marine Corps has had them since 86.



Just because something has an M4 type barrel or a carbine is in the hand of a US serviceman, doesn't make it an M4.



I was told by an instructor/armorer that the M4 carbine was developed in cooperation with the Marine Corps, who then did not buy thm in quantity. The term M4 was specifically used. The conversation started with a game to see who in the class could guess the date that the M4 was developed. IM me for the name and contact information of the instructor, if you want to check.

I hope that didnt sound combative, it wasn't meant to be.
Link Posted: 1/18/2006 3:50:16 AM EDT
I was trying to find out what the Guys SF used in Real Backhawk down not the movie, sorry I can't type worth a crap.
Link Posted: 1/18/2006 4:18:13 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/18/2006 4:53:08 AM EDT by QUIB]
Are you trying to replicate the weapons from the movie or from that time period?

If from the movie, here you go.




If from that time period, I asked the same question a while back while doing research for my CAR15 build. I don’t remember who it was here on the board or where they got the info. They had a link I believe to another web site that made reference to CAR’s being used by Delta at that time.

Regardless I had intended from the beginning to build an AR similar to the carbines used by the military before the introduction of the M4. Many others with their retro build carbines were going back as far as the late 60’s, early 70’s. It proved a challenge to find a new A1 upper with FA and no BD, so I went with Bushmasters A1/C7 upper, and instead of a 14.5” barrel I went with 16”.



Here are the pics I gathered while doing my research. Hope they can provide some help.




Link Posted: 1/18/2006 4:25:12 AM EDT






Kind of small, but maybe these can help.
Link Posted: 1/18/2006 4:50:51 AM EDT
In an article by "Dale B. Cooper" published in SoF magazine Sept. 94:

"equipped only with scoped M16A2 rifles and Beretta pistols, Gordon and Shubert fought their way through a dense maze of shanties and shacks to reach the critically injured crew...."

July '94 article:

"the PJ's(Not rangers, BTW) were weighted down with M16A2M4 carines, M9 Beretta pisols, ..."

Not a SINGLE picture of an M4 was shown in three different articles, but several M16A2's are shown, and even a M16A1.

Paladin
Link Posted: 1/18/2006 5:43:19 AM EDT

Originally Posted By scottryan:
We went over this in five pages of topic last year with this exact same topic about Blackhawk Down.

The M4 didn't exist until 1994.



You guys read to many books. We had m4s in the ranger batt in 1989.

Was it called "m4"?? We called em shorties, but they had 14.5" barrels with the grenade launcher step and sometimes had the 203 attached, collapsible butstocks too and were full auto. I'm sure someone will say it was not an "M4" if the box it was shipped in didn't say so. Sorry but these rifles that we had looked like they had been inservice a couple years when I got there.
Link Posted: 1/18/2006 5:44:03 AM EDT
I think my brain is bleeding...

Shughart and Gordon were packing a CAR-15 and an M14. Forget who had what.

The Marines didn't have much anything to do with the M4 development. The concept has been around for a while. Hell, M16 carbines were being toyed around with in Nam. The Marines have only recently warmed up to the M4. Kind of hard to like a weapon with less long range potential when you are trained to shoot people five football fields away.
Link Posted: 1/18/2006 5:47:52 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/18/2006 5:49:39 AM EDT by Black-Tiger]
The models carried by the DELTA Force shooters during the Battle Of The Black Sea were Colt Model 727 (Fixed carry handle M4s) and Model M733 (Colt Commando) carbines, perhaps even M16A2 Carbines, which is like the 727, but without the M4 profile barrel. As to the types of optics they actually carried, I am unsure; probably "off the shelf" optics like 30mm red dot scopes and foregrip mounted Surefires or Streamlight Scorpions.
Link Posted: 1/18/2006 6:11:14 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Black-Tiger:
As to the types of optics they actually carried, I am unsure; probably "off the shelf" optics like 30mm red dot scopes and foregrip mounted Surefires or Streamlight Scorpions.




Aimpoint 3000, as many of the above pics show.


Launched 1989

In 1989 Aimpoint’s best seller, Aimpoint 3000, was introduced. Unlike Aimpoint 2000, this new model had a manual light adjustment and a smaller battery section. Aimpoint 3000 was awarded as the optical product of the year in both the US and France. This sight served with elite forces in Operation Desert Storm.

A full-length sight with 1” (25,4 mm) tube. Mounted in the usual way with two 1” rings.



www.aimpoint.com/o.o.i.s?id=46&prev_id=46&product_id=85
Link Posted: 1/18/2006 6:15:03 AM EDT

Originally Posted By AgentFork:
Shughart and Gordon were packing a CAR-15 and an M14. Forget who had what.



Do you have a source on that? Not that I’m doubting you, but as I mentioned early on I did some research my self and came up with very little to nothing. Basically the few pics we have here.
Link Posted: 1/18/2006 7:16:28 AM EDT
Link Posted: 1/18/2006 7:27:43 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/18/2006 7:28:49 AM EDT by Ekie]
As Scott said, there were no M4's issued prior to 1994. There were various commercially purchased Colt's Carbines in service. Some had M4 profile barrels. All though not marked M4, they were frequently referred to as M4's or XM4's or even M16A2M4's unofficially.


Originally Posted By Black-Tiger:
The models carried by the DELTA Force shooters during the Battle Of The Black Sea were Colt Model 727 (Fixed carry handle M4s) and Model M733 (Colt Commando) carbines, perhaps even M16A2 Carbines, which is like the 727, but without the M4 profile barrel. As to the types of optics they actually carried, I am unsure; probably "off the shelf" optics like 30mm red dot scopes and foregrip mounted Surefires or Streamlight Scorpions.



That is an excellent description, and here are some pictures of an example:

www.autoweapons.com/photosn/postm16m4.html
Link Posted: 1/18/2006 7:34:30 AM EDT
Classic IDIOTIC ARFCOM semantics PISSING CONTEST!!
Link Posted: 1/18/2006 8:03:03 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/18/2006 8:03:56 AM EDT by scottryan]

Originally Posted By jjmcrowell:

Originally Posted By scottryan:
We went over this in five pages of topic last year with this exact same topic about Blackhawk Down.

The M4 didn't exist until 1994.



You guys read to many books. We had m4s in the ranger batt in 1989.

Was it called "m4"?? We called em shorties, but they had 14.5" barrels with the grenade launcher step and sometimes had the 203 attached, collapsible butstocks too and were full auto. I'm sure someone will say it was not an "M4" if the box it was shipped in didn't say so. Sorry but these rifles that we had looked like they had been inservice a couple years when I got there.



Then by your logic, a Colt 653 and a Colt 655 are an M4 which they certainly are not.

Also by your logic, I can say a Colt 6700 is a M16A4 which it certainly is not.
Link Posted: 1/18/2006 8:19:55 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/18/2006 8:22:55 AM EDT by sic_ness]
does anyone actually OWN the book in question?


"His (Howe) weapon was the most sophisticated infantry rifle in the world, a customized CAR-15, and he was shootign the army's new 5.56-mm green tip round"

Whatever a "customized CAR-15" is. I can't say for sure. I'll have to dig deeper in the book.

also, as an aside
"they used to kid Randy Shughart because he shunned the modern rifle and ammunition and carried a Vietnam-ers M-14, which shot a 7.62-mm round without the penetrating qualities of the new green tip. ... His rifle may have been heavier... and delivered a mean recoil, but it damn sure knocked a man down with one bullet, and in combat, one shot was often all you got"

Bowden, Mark. "Blackhawk Down: A Story of Modern War" "The Alamo," Chapter 2, page 252, Jan 2002 printing.

edit for spelling
Link Posted: 1/18/2006 8:27:52 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/19/2006 6:20:38 PM EDT by FedDC]
.
Link Posted: 1/18/2006 8:34:15 AM EDT

Originally Posted By demigod:
Classic IDIOTIC ARFCOM semantics PISSING CONTEST!!



+1...It happens from time to time

If it looks like an M4 and smells like an M4...wait, didnt Bushmaster already establish this last month? Hmmmm...
Link Posted: 1/18/2006 8:36:24 AM EDT

Originally Posted By demigod:
Classic IDIOTIC ARFCOM semantics PISSING CONTEST!!



I call it discussion, and I’m sure the others will agree. The only one here I see pissing is YOU! If you don’t like it and don't have anything noteworthy to add, don’t click on the thread!
Link Posted: 1/18/2006 8:54:05 AM EDT
Gee, if it was in a hollywood movie it MUST be right....

"Dale B Cooper's" quote seems to disagree with the actual CMH citations for Gordon & Shubert.

http://www.medalofhonor.com/Somalia.htm

They were awarded the CMH for using their sniper rifles. A first if I recall corectly.


Lem
Link Posted: 1/18/2006 9:04:26 AM EDT

Originally Posted By QUIB:

Originally Posted By demigod:
Classic IDIOTIC ARFCOM semantics PISSING CONTEST!!



I call it discussion, and I’m sure the others will agree. The only one here I see pissing is YOU! If you don’t like it and don't have anything noteworthy to add, don’t click on the thread!



I agree, however the thread is titled "BlackHawk Down M4's" not "Hey guys I'd like some pics from BHD but I'll settle on reading about you guys bitching back and forth about what the technical definition of an M4 is"

If someone wants to start a thread on what an M4 is, go for it, thats the beauty of this site, however that is not the topic of this thread.
Link Posted: 1/18/2006 9:13:36 AM EDT

Originally Posted By James16688:
get the DVD?

btw, did you resolve your finish issues?



Your avatar disturbs me. I dont know why, it just does
Link Posted: 1/18/2006 10:44:10 AM EDT

Originally Posted By sk1911:
I agree, however the thread is titled "BlackHawk Down M4's" not "Hey guys I'd like some pics from BHD but I'll settle on reading about you guys bitching back and forth about what the technical definition of an M4 is"



Well the only reason WILDBILL756 received pics from the movie is because he was unclear on what he was originally requesting. He stated this him self:


Originally Posted By WILDBILL756:
I was trying to find out what the Guys SF used in Real Backhawk down not the movie, sorry I can't type worth a crap.



I’ll admit the topic went a tiny bit a stray, but whether or not the M4 existed back then is still related to the original question:


Originally Posted By WILDBILL756:
Can any body tell me where to look or post some Pictures of Delta Boys and their 15.4 M4's, I would to make a clone of their M4.



Well first we have to determine if the M4 WILDBILL756 wants to recreate really existed, now don’t we?

Link Posted: 1/18/2006 10:52:02 AM EDT
Yes, I would like to recreate the type of Car15 that the SF used in I think was it 1992 or 93 in the real Blackhawk Down.
Link Posted: 1/18/2006 11:07:35 AM EDT

Originally Posted By QUIB:

Originally Posted By demigod:
Classic IDIOTIC ARFCOM semantics PISSING CONTEST!!



I call it discussion, and I’m sure the others will agree. The only one here I see pissing is YOU! If you don’t like it and don't have anything noteworthy to add, don’t click on the thread!



You call that pissing, Pissant? I hope you're joking.
Link Posted: 1/18/2006 11:08:42 AM EDT
man, some guys read too much into shit. The "Big Army" has always been slow to officially adapt and modify equipment, it always has to go thru proper channels and all that other BS. Special Ops guys and especially Delta, are notorious for being able to go around the powers that be and do so with their equipment and thus are the envy for many a soldier. This always puts the straight leg type's panties in a ruffle, because "if it's not in the field manual then it isn't needed.."
Link Posted: 1/18/2006 11:46:38 AM EDT

Originally Posted By demigod:

Originally Posted By QUIB:

Originally Posted By demigod:
Classic IDIOTIC ARFCOM semantics PISSING CONTEST!!



I call it discussion, and I’m sure the others will agree. The only one here I see pissing is YOU! If you don’t like it and don't have anything noteworthy to add, don’t click on the thread!



You call that pissing, Pissant? I hope you're joking.



Like I said: "If you don’t like it and don't have anything noteworthy to add, don’t click on the thread!"



Link Posted: 1/18/2006 12:30:57 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Lem:
Gee, if it was in a hollywood movie it MUST be right....

"Dale B Cooper's" quote seems to disagree with the actual CMH citations for Gordon & Shubert.

http://www.medalofhonor.com/Somalia.htm

They were awarded the CMH for using their sniper rifles. A first if I recall corectly.

Lem



Nice reference, EXCEPT there is NO mention of what kind of weapon they actually used. There is NO disagreement, just stuff we can not know since we were not there.

Are we to assume that DB Cooper, who published his article knowing full well it was subject to review by "those who had been there" was incorrect? He was writing less than a year after the event, and obviously had access to "first party accounts".

Gordon and Shugart were characterized by a high ranking SF officer as follows:

"While Gordon and Shughart were labeled as snipers, they were not the sniper we have come to know. They were in an overwatch mode".

Here's another quote from the article:

"When Gordon returned to Durant after the skirmish, he brought with him a M16A2 carbine. Since Shughart was the only one who carried such a weapon, it meant that the Delta sniper was badly hurt, or dead." Details like that could only have come from the lone survivor, Durant.

Personally, I could care less what they used. But when debating or researching something, I give more weight to the printed page than ANYTHING found on the internet. And primary, first person accounts are what DB Cooper based his article on.

Paladin


Link Posted: 1/18/2006 12:50:48 PM EDT
Bowdens book seems to state otherwise. P Howe, in his recent book, seems to think the book written by Bowden is a darn good source. So who to believe, Bowden or Cooper?
Link Posted: 1/18/2006 1:30:30 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/18/2006 1:54:01 PM EDT by Ekie]

Originally Posted By Horik:
Bowdens book seems to state otherwise. P Howe, in his recent book, seems to think the book written by Bowden is a darn good source. So who to believe, Bowden or Cooper?



As in was it a customized CAR-15 or a M16A2 carbine?

I would go with M16A2 Carbine, in that Colt's did make such a Carbine during that time frame, and some were even roll marked with that nomenclature. Referring to a Colt's M16A2 Model 727 Carbine as a "CAR-15", or "M4" is slang.
Link Posted: 1/18/2006 1:51:19 PM EDT

Originally Posted By rickdawggg:
man, some guys read too much into shit. The "Big Army" has always been slow to officially adapt and modify equipment, it always has to go thru proper channels and all that other BS. Special Ops guys and especially Delta, are notorious for being able to go around the powers that be and do so with their equipment and thus are the envy for many a soldier. This always puts the straight leg type's panties in a ruffle, because "if it's not in the field manual then it isn't needed.."



No, you have been around too much gunshop/gunshow commando bullshit.
Link Posted: 1/18/2006 2:21:45 PM EDT

Originally Posted By scottryan:

Originally Posted By rickdawggg:
man, some guys read too much into shit. The "Big Army" has always been slow to officially adapt and modify equipment, it always has to go thru proper channels and all that other BS. Special Ops guys and especially Delta, are notorious for being able to go around the powers that be and do so with their equipment and thus are the envy for many a soldier. This always puts the straight leg type's panties in a ruffle, because "if it's not in the field manual then it isn't needed.." hr


No, you have been around too much gunshop/gunshow commando bullshit.



strange then that I see them do whatever they damn well please around the FOB, yet if PVT Joe Snuffy wants to so much as sew on pocket the sleeves of his DCU's so he can get to shit while in his IBA, he may as well have commited heresy...I have dealt with plenty of the regular army bullshit, and trust me those guys get to skate on a lot of it...
Link Posted: 1/18/2006 5:44:29 PM EDT
So this may be a dumb question but what are the numbers painted on some of the collapsable stocks?
Link Posted: 1/18/2006 6:09:40 PM EDT
Rack numbers. Makes it easy to identify a weapon in the rack, without looking at the serial number.

When I was in, it was pretty common for all rifles to have a rack number, that way I could go to the arms room say "hey, i need rifle XXX" and they would pull it down, sign it out to me and I would be on my way, that way if my rifle was put in out of order, because the arms room guy was in a hurry, i would get the correct weapon.

Also - as a side note - While I was at a small outpost in Croatia (Okucani Convoy Support Centre), a SF Group came and stayed with us for a week. Those guys had some wacky shit - modified M4's with short barrels, long barrels, suppressors, various optics, various stocks, ris, lasers, lights. All kinds of wacky shit (to a mechanized type, who was carrying a M4 with M68/Aimpoint). All their gear was customized, and we're all standing there going "damn, i wish i was that guy". I dont think its gunshow commando talk when dude above said that SF types get a little more leeway in what they can take to the field.
Link Posted: 1/18/2006 7:12:07 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/18/2006 7:14:23 PM EDT by S-1]

Originally Posted By WILDBILL756:
Can any body tell me where to look or post some Pictures of Delta Boys and their 15.4 M4's, I would to make a clone of their M4. I would like to build one not thhe Ranger 20. A2



I have one question. Why are you always so concerned with what the Spec Ops guys are using? They use what works for THEMSELVES (SBR's, Cans, Aimpoints & EOTechs etc...etc) and their mission. You can't go wrong with any of the reputable manufacturers of rifles and accessories. As long as your buying from the name brand companies, I can guarantee it is in use with the HSLD boys.

You can look at a group of DEVGRU, CAG or even your standard "bluewater" SEALs and SF and each weapon looks or is set up differently than the next guys because everyone is different. I have seen you on a couple of Boards asking the same questions over and over. Use what works for YOU not them. That is the way "they" do things.

Link Posted: 1/18/2006 7:14:46 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Lem:
Gee, if it was in a hollywood movie it MUST be right....

"Dale B Cooper's" quote seems to disagree with the actual CMH citations for Gordon & Shubert.

http://www.medalofhonor.com/Somalia.htm

They were awarded the CMH for using their sniper rifles. A first if I recall corectly.


Lem



My understanding was that they were the first snipers awarded the Medal of Honor.

Dan

Link Posted: 1/18/2006 8:23:45 PM EDT

Originally Posted By scottryan:

Originally Posted By rickdawggg:
man, some guys read too much into shit. The "Big Army" has always been slow to officially adapt and modify equipment, it always has to go thru proper channels and all that other BS. Special Ops guys and especially Delta, are notorious for being able to go around the powers that be and do so with their equipment and thus are the envy for many a soldier. This always puts the straight leg type's panties in a ruffle, because "if it's not in the field manual then it isn't needed.." hr


No, you have been around too much gunshop/gunshow commando bullshit.



Sorry scottryan, but I believe you are the "gun show commando" here. I don't want to bring this off topic but I'm having trouble with the "text book geeks" on this forum speaking on subjects they have no clue on. You may be the self proclaimed "Colt expert"h.gif but you obviously have not worked with SF or Delta. For the most part rickdawggg is correct in that many weapons used by SF and Delta have been "personalized" in some way......... and yes this is first hand experience. Please speak of what you know (Colt model numbers) and stop speaking on things you don't.
Link Posted: 1/18/2006 8:45:19 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Mark82ndABN:

Originally Posted By scottryan:

Originally Posted By rickdawggg:
man, some guys read too much into shit. The "Big Army" has always been slow to officially adapt and modify equipment, it always has to go thru proper channels and all that other BS. Special Ops guys and especially Delta, are notorious for being able to go around the powers that be and do so with their equipment and thus are the envy for many a soldier. This always puts the straight leg type's panties in a ruffle, because "if it's not in the field manual then it isn't needed.."



No, you have been around too much gunshop/gunshow commando bullshit.



Sorry scottryan, but I believe you are the "gun show commando" here. I don't want to bring this off topic but I'm having trouble with the "text book geeks" on this forum speaking on subjects they have no clue on. You may be the self proclaimed "Colt expert" but you obviously have not worked with SF or Delta. For the most part rickdawggg is correct in that many weapons used by SF and Delta have been "personalized" in some way......... and yes this is first hand experience. Please speak of what you know (Colt model numbers) and stop speaking on things you don't.



+1 to the above, life long friend spent 4 years in the 3rd/75th, and even they got to wear what they felt most appropriate while in the field..
Link Posted: 1/18/2006 9:29:16 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Mark82ndABN:

Originally Posted By scottryan:

Originally Posted By rickdawggg:
man, some guys read too much into shit. The "Big Army" has always been slow to officially adapt and modify equipment, it always has to go thru proper channels and all that other BS. Special Ops guys and especially Delta, are notorious for being able to go around the powers that be and do so with their equipment and thus are the envy for many a soldier. This always puts the straight leg type's panties in a ruffle, because "if it's not in the field manual then it isn't needed.."



No, you have been around too much gunshop/gunshow commando bullshit.



Sorry scottryan, but I believe you are the "gun show commando" here. I don't want to bring this off topic but I'm having trouble with the "text book geeks" on this forum speaking on subjects they have no clue on. You may be the self proclaimed "Colt expert" but you obviously have not worked with SF or Delta. For the most part rickdawggg is correct in that many weapons used by SF and Delta have been "personalized" in some way......... and yes this is first hand experience. Please speak of what you know (Colt model numbers) and stop speaking on things you don't.



I never was arguing the point you are trying to make.

The point I am arguing is that what special forces are using has no effect on what a M4 is or what the official carbine of the US Military is.

And once again, just because a carbine is in the hands of a US serviceman, doesn't make it an M4.

Nice try but you are never going to get me and I have posted 100% fact.
Link Posted: 1/19/2006 6:18:39 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Horik:
Bowdens book seems to state otherwise. P Howe, in his recent book, seems to think the book written by Bowden is a darn good source. So who to believe, Bowden or Cooper?



Per Bowdens own Phila. Inquirer article, that his book was based on:

"Then he heard one of the Delta guys - it was Gary Gordon - shout that he was hit. Just a quick shout of anger and pain. He didn't hear the voice again.

The other Delta guy, Randy Shughart, came back around to Durant's side of the bird.

``Are there weapons on board?'' he asked.

The crew chiefs carried M-16s. Durant told him where they were kept, and Shughart stepped into the craft, rummaged around and returned with both rifles. He handed Durant Gordon's weapon, a CAR-15 automatic rifle loaded and ready to fire. He didn't say what had happened to Gordon.


IF the Bowden book says an M14 was used, he is disagreeing with HIMSELF.


Paladin

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