The last time I had any “significant contact” with any of the “Delta Operators” (I am not sure “Delta Boys” would be appreciated by all) was in 1989 during some multi-unit (5th Group, 160 SOAR , HHC/LEC-SRT) CQB training at Ft Campbell just prior to Operation Just Cause in Panama. During Operation Restore Hope / Gothic Serpent (aka Blackhawk Down), I was with 10th Mountain, so unfortunately I have no “significant” first hand knowledge of exactly which model Delta was carrying at that time.

I can tell you that from 1989 to 1993 (pre M4 days) that there was a hodgepodge of “XM or CAR Style ARs” floating around prior to the official M4. I know some of those were the 727 and 733 Colt models pointed out by Black Tiger. I personally saw the 11.5”, 14.5”, and a 16” model during those times.

While there is a very good chance that Delta was carrying one of the “Standard Colt Models”, there is also nothing that says that they were also not carrying something that was modified either “in house” or “out of house”. As many other members have pointed out, Spec Ops Units will acquire or modify equipment to meet their needs, so not everything you will find in the “Arms Room” or in the “Field” with a Spec Ops Unit will be a “stock” military issue item. We had a lot of “Non-Issue Stuff” that was modified or acquired through “Unit Funds” or “Personal Funds”.      

Oh well enough rambling, for the “AR History Buffs” you may find the following links helpful.

Colt Commando

M16

M4

I can remember my Team Sergeant at Ft Campbell who was a 5th Group Vietnam Vet was always checking the serial numbers on the short barreled ARs, he said one day he was going to find his original XM177 receiver with a new upper / barrel on it. It always amazed me just how long some weapons were keep in service through rebuilds!

Not exactly sure why someone needs an “exact replica” of the “Blackhawk Down Delta AR”, but whatever floats your boat.

Good Luck,
“Capt Richardson”

Quoted: The last time I had any “significant contact” with any of the “Delta Operators” (I am not sure “Delta Boys” would be appreciated by all) was in 1989 during some multi-unit (5th Group, 160 SOAR , HHC/LEC-SRT) CQB training at Ft Campbell just prior to Operation Just Cause in Panama. During Operation Restore Hope / Gothic Serpent (aka Blackhawk Down), I was with 10th Mountain, so unfortunately I have no “significant” first hand knowledge of exactly which model Delta was carrying at that time. I can tell you that from 1989 to 1993 (pre M4 days) that there was a hodgepodge of “XM or CAR Style ARs” floating around prior to the official M4. I know some of those were the 727 and 733 Colt models pointed out by Black Tiger. I personally saw the 11.5”, 14.5”, and a 16” model during those times. While there is a very good chance that Delta was carrying one of the “Standard Colt Models”, there is also nothing that says that they were also not carrying something that was modified either “in house” or “out of house”. As many other members have pointed out, Spec Ops Units will acquire or modify equipment to meet their needs, so not everything you will find in the “Arms Room” or in the “Field” with a Spec Ops Unit will be a “stock” military issue item. We had a lot of “Non-Issue Stuff” that was modified or acquired through “Unit Funds” or “Personal Funds”.       Oh well enough rambling, for the “AR History Buffs” you may find the following links helpful. Colt Commando M16 M4 I can remember my Team Sergeant at Ft Campbell who was a 5th Group Vietnam Vet was always checking the serial numbers on the short barreled ARs, he said one day he was going to find his original XM177 receiver with a new upper / barrel on it. It always amazed me just how long some weapons were keep in service through rebuilds! Not exactly sure why someone needs an “exact replica” of the “Blackhawk Down Delta AR”, but whatever floats your boat. Good Luck, “Capt Richardson”

Hooah...

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: man, some guys read too much into shit. The "Big Army" has always been slow to officially adapt and modify equipment, it always has to go thru proper channels and all that other BS. Special Ops guys and especially Delta, are notorious for being able to go around the powers that be and do so with their equipment and thus are the envy for many a soldier. This always puts the straight leg type's panties in a ruffle, because "if it's not in the field manual then it isn't needed.." No, you have been around too much gunshop/gunshow commando bullshit. Sorry scottryan, but I believe you are the "gun show commando" here.  I don't want to bring this off topic but I'm having trouble with the "text book geeks" on this forum speaking on subjects they have no clue on. You may be the self proclaimed "Colt expert" but you obviously have not worked with SF or Delta. For the most part rickdawggg is correct in that many weapons used by SF and Delta have been "personalized" in some way......... and yes this is first hand experience. Please speak of what you know (Colt model numbers) and stop speaking on things you don't. I never was arguing the point you are trying to make. The point I am arguing is that what special forces are using has no effect on what a M4 is or what the official carbine of the US Military is. And once again, just because a carbine is in the hands of a US serviceman, doesn't make it an M4. Nice try but you are never going to get me and I have posted 100% fact.

Then I apologize scottryan, ....I thought this was one of the points you were arguing.

Quoted: The last time I had any “significant contact” with any of the “Delta Operators” (I am not sure “Delta Boys” would be appreciated by all) was in 1989 during some multi-unit (5th Group, 160 SOAR , HHC/LEC-SRT) CQB training at Ft Campbell just prior to Operation Just Cause in Panama. During Operation Restore Hope / Gothic Serpent (aka Blackhawk Down), I was with 10th Mountain, so unfortunately I have no “significant” first hand knowledge of exactly which model Delta was carrying at that time. I can tell you that from 1989 to 1993 (pre M4 days) that there was a hodgepodge of “XM or CAR Style ARs” floating around prior to the official M4. I know some of those were the 727 and 733 Colt models pointed out by Black Tiger. I personally saw the 11.5”, 14.5”, and a 16” model during those times. While there is a very good chance that Delta was carrying one of the “Standard Colt Models”, there is also nothing that says that they were also not carrying something that was modified either “in house” or “out of house”. As many other members have pointed out, Spec Ops Units will acquire or modify equipment to meet their needs, so not everything you will find in the “Arms Room” or in the “Field” with a Spec Ops Unit will be a “stock” military issue item. We had a lot of “Non-Issue Stuff” that was modified or acquired through “Unit Funds” or “Personal Funds”.       Oh well enough rambling, for the “AR History Buffs” you may find the following links helpful. Colt Commando M16 M4 I can remember my Team Sergeant at Ft Campbell who was a 5th Group Vietnam Vet was always checking the serial numbers on the short barreled ARs, he said one day he was going to find his original XM177 receiver with a new upper / barrel on it. It always amazed me just how long some weapons were keep in service through rebuilds! Not exactly sure why someone needs an “exact replica” of the “Blackhawk Down Delta AR”, but whatever floats your boat. Good Luck, “Capt Richardson”

It's fun to have period correct weapons.  Just like I'd like to have the exact weapon my  Grandpa was carrying when he was KIA in France.  Problem is, I'm not sure what he carried.  So I've studied what weapons were used at the time, as have 4 zillion other people, and we started collecting them.  And then people get into period correct iron sights on garands and the carbines and on and on and on.  It's a hobby.  No reason to get all mad at people for discussing it.  Which I know you weren't Capt. but several others are.  If the only reason to own a gun was to kill something with it, alot of us would not have some of the guns we have.  Get me?

I have some friends that are into the World War II reenactment stuff, and it has floored me to what extent they will go to in order to get the details correct. Fortunately for all of us there are people out there who are willing to go those lengths so that all of that “History” is not lost, and so that we can experience it.

It would be really great if someone could take all of the stuff that the “History Buffs” have posted here and put it together into a book. There are some good AR books out there, but I have seen stuff here that I have not seen in any books, or anywhere else for that matter!

To be honest when people start asking about “Delta” I usually get a little suspicious. However, if someone wants to “preserve” that “Period or Operation” so that it is not lost, and others can experience it, then more power to them!

Good Luck,
“Capt Richardson”

PS: I would probably collect, however I am already broke just trying to keep up with what I shoot!

Bowden said in the book that Shughart was the one with the M14, not Gordon.  This is carried over to the movie.  I also like the fact that the Delta Sgt's in the movie all carried 1911's, it shows an attention to proper detail.  Most people know that the Army carries the M9, but if you know a bit more than most, you know that most SOCOM units either carry 1911's, Sig's (SeAL's), or HK's (Mk23).  This is also properly displayed in Tears of the Sun.  Ironically, in both Black Hawk Down and Tears of the Sun, they can't seem to get the Aimpoints right....

Quoted: I have some friends that are into the World War II reenactment stuff, and it has floored me to what extent they will go to in order to get the details correct. Fortunately for all of us there are people out there who are willing to go those lengths so that all of that “History” is not lost, and so that we can experience it. It would be really great if someone could take all of the stuff that the “History Buffs” have posted here and put it together into a book. There are some good AR books out there, but I have seen stuff here that I have not seen in any books, or anywhere else for that matter! To be honest when people start asking about “Delta” I usually get a little suspicious. However, if someone wants to “preserve” that “Period or Operation” so that it is not lost, and others can experience it, then more power to them! Good Luck, “Capt Richardson” PS: I would probably collect, however I am already broke just trying to keep up with what I shoot!

I share your sentiments, excellent post.

I repeat what my old first sergeant said when I asked him what he carried in that particular fight.

"It was an M4, or f*cking close to it. Shorty barrel, A2 rear sight, whole thing from the unit arms room."

He also brought up the point when he disallowed several modifications to my issue M4/203 I wanted to do that "Units that do that sort of thing have to bring cases of non-standard spare parts with them to keep their customized weapons running. One, we don't have that luxury, secondly it's generally not worth the f*cking effort to bother."

He went home early get get his back put back together again. God, I miss him already.

Quoted: Quoted: I have some friends that are into the World War II reenactment stuff, and it has floored me to what extent they will go to in order to get the details correct. Fortunately for all of us there are people out there who are willing to go those lengths so that all of that “History” is not lost, and so that we can experience it. It would be really great if someone could take all of the stuff that the “History Buffs” have posted here and put it together into a book. There are some good AR books out there, but I have seen stuff here that I have not seen in any books, or anywhere else for that matter! To be honest when people start asking about “Delta” I usually get a little suspicious. However, if someone wants to “preserve” that “Period or Operation” so that it is not lost, and others can experience it, then more power to them! Good Luck, “Capt Richardson” PS: I would probably collect, however I am already broke just trying to keep up with what I shoot! I share your sentiments, excellent post.

+1

I'm sick of these turds who have spend God only knows how many hours of their life trying to find out each and every step in the EVOLUTION of the Ar15 into the M4 and then feel they must justify their months of wasted time researching by spewing this unneeded information all over anyone who asks about an M4 when the person just wants a simple answer.

They guy who started this thread wants to recreate the rifles in Black Hawk Down.  He doesn't need to be chastised for using the term M4 and this thread doesn't need to be destroyed in a pissiong match between 2 or 3 guys because ONE guy spent too much time researching the evolution of the M4 and has to flaunt his unwanted knowledge.  

I'm not the type to copy exactly what I see in a movie because I know they are usually off a little but if this guy wants to copy, then give him the info he needs.  Don't argue with the guys who are helping him even if the term "M4" is thrown out once or twice.  If you want to bitch that these rifles are NOT M4s, then say so but don't waste our time explaining what you know an M4 to be.  

Let the guys who have actually "been there done that" tell us what they were and weren't allowed to use and how they could or couldn't modify their rifles.  Let's not argue semantics because one guy used M4 and now you think you need to become Colt's official spokesperson.

I'm not pointing any fingers.  

ETA:  thanks capt for the REAL information.  

Quoted: I'm sick of these turds who have spend God only knows how many hours of their life trying to find out each and every step in the EVOLUTION of the Ar15 into the M4 and then feel they must justify their months of wasted time researching by spewing this unneeded information all over anyone who asks about an M4 when the person just wants a simple answer. They guy who started this thread wants to recreate the rifles in Black Hawk Down. He doesn't need to be chastised for using the term M4 and this thread doesn't need to be destroyed in a pissiong match between 2 or 3 guys because ONE guy spent too much time researching the evolution of the M4 and has to flaunt his unwanted knowledge. I'm not the type to copy exactly what I see in a movie because I know they are usually off a little but if this guy wants to copy, then give him the info he needs. Don't argue with the guys who are helping him even if the term "M4" is thrown out once or twice. If you want to bitch that these rifles are NOT M4s, then say so but don't waste our time explaining what you know an M4 to be. Let the guys who have actually "been there done that" tell us what they were and weren't allowed to use and how they could or couldn't modify their rifles. Let's not argue semantics because one guy used M4 and now you think you need to become Colt's official spokesperson. I'm not pointing any fingers. ETA: thanks capt for the REAL information.

I don't share your sentiments.  Interesting post just the same.

Hey WiseguyThreeOne,

Are you currently downrange in Iraq with the Screaming Chickens / Puking Buzzards? (I use those terms lovingly because I used to be a Screaming Chicken / Puking Buzzard)

If so, keep your powder dry, and keep your head down!

I am catching some of the returning units on the local TV. Hopefully it will be mission accomplished soon, and you can head back home.

Amazing how almost all First Sergeants seem to be cut from the same mold, straight to the point, and no nonsense!

Your comments brought back some memories, I can remember going out on the economy just prior to a deployment and stocking up on backup items for our “non issue stuff”. The store owners used to love to see us coming because we would clean them out. Of course they also knew that it was the “feast before the famine”, because once we deployed the place would turn into a ghost town. I know the recent Ft Campbell deployments have really hurt the local economies in Oak Grove and Clarksville.

Which unit was your First Sergeant with in “93” during Restore Hope / Gothic Serpent?

Best of Luck, Stay Safe,
“Capt Richardson”

well, i meant that first part to only be used with the rest of what i was saying.  It's great to learn all of that info but to smother other people in it is ridiculous.

THANKS BROTHER.

Quoted: well, i meant that first part to only be used with the rest of what i was saying.  It's great to learn all of that info but to smother other people in it is ridiculous.

I went back and edited the post to show the full quote.

Any how, we have done this thread a few times now, with many of the same participants.  I think this is the best one to date, and has lots of good info, including a picture I have never seen before:

Quoted:

Would I be a "turd" if I pointed out a detail on this particular carbine that I bet the other "turds" missed?  As far as you other turds, take a close look at it, there is a important clue there on what Carbine it is.

Tag, Becasue they look cool even if the are not M4's.

Quoted: Would I be a "turd" if I pointed out a detail on this particular carbine that I bet the other "turds" missed?  As far as you other turds, take a close look at it, there is a important clue there on what Carbine it is.

Looks like it doesn't have a forward assist...

Oh yeah, that Carbine apears to be carried by a Ranger.  All the Carbine pictures I have from Somalia show the Rangers with A2 rear sights.  The Delta guys have field sights, or A1 sights if you will.  As pointed out, the optic on the Rangers Carbine is an Aimpoint 3000.  The Delta weapons have a different optic.

Also have a picture of SEAL Team six, and the Carbine in the picture appears to have the "field sights", and I can't make out the optic, perhaps an "ACOG":

Quoted: Quoted: Would I be a "turd" if I pointed out a detail on this particular carbine that I bet the other "turds" missed?  As far as you other turds, take a close look at it, there is a important clue there on what Carbine it is. Looks like it doesn't have a forward assist...

A turd would know that there is a FA on there.  You would have to be a full blown all out serious turd that wastes many many hours on this type of subject in order to spot it.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Would I be a "turd" if I pointed out a detail on this particular carbine that I bet the other "turds" missed?  As far as you other turds, take a close look at it, there is a important clue there on what Carbine it is. Looks like it doesn't have a forward assist... A turd would know that there is a FA on there.  You would have to be a full blown all out serious turd that wastes many many hours on this type of subject in order to spot it.

A1 lower?  Hard to tell with the resolution on that photo.

Looks like a standard A2 type upper, CAR-style telestock, and carbine (non-M4) handguards.

Quoted: Any how, we have done this thread a few times now, with many of the same participants.  I think this is the best one to date, and has lots of good info, including a picture I have never seen before: Quoted: www.hunt101.com/img/367038.jpg Would I be a "turd" if I pointed out a detail on this particular carbine that I bet the other "turds" missed?  As far as you other turds, take a close look at it, there is a important clue there on what Carbine it is.

Well, I see a forward assist, the non-ribbed collapsible stock, skinny CAR handguards and A2 sights.  I see an optic that looks like it's taped on as well as too much tape on that buttstock.  It looks like he's got a long tampon taped to it as well...

There's a fence around the mag release so along with all of the other info, it looks new-ish and not refurbished or a frankengun.

Quoted: A turd would know that there is a FA on there.  You would have to be a full blown all out serious turd that wastes many many hours on this type of subject in order to spot it.

Having since noticed the FA, i feel very un-turdish now.

I was in the 75th at the time and was pissed it wasn't my Bn that went.  

That body armor SUCKED to wear, unless you where getting shot at of course.  Damn that picture brings back memories.  I'm trying to keep the swearing to a minimum.  Firing from the prone was miserable, could barely keep a sight picture.  After Mogadishu, we didn't bitch about it as much.  It still sucked, we just fu****g sucked it up.  I pulled the plate out once and tucked it in my pants, threw my top on and convinced my buddy to punch me in the chest.  I convinced him by punching HIM in the chest.  He tried to lay into me, hit the plate square with his fist.  Funniest s**t ever.  

Anyway.  We had CAR-15's.  We didn't have that many though.  My squad leader was the only one that carried one in my squad.  Everyone else had full length muskets (16's) or other stuff.  I remember it pretty well, although I never got my d**k beaters on it.  

Oh yeah, they had forward assists and aluminum buttstocks.  You would laugh at how the old undergun lights mounted.   It worked though.  They were auto, not burst.  Carbine handguards, yes.  This small diameter ones that were easier to hold onto (one handed, when not shooting).

I never got my d**k beaters on it.

you are calling your hands dick beaters?

Yup.  Port-a-johns were your best friend on long deployments.  If you got 'em, it was a bonus.  Your only private time.  Not that I would know anything about that at all.  

Quoted: Quoted: Any how, we have done this thread a few times now, with many of the same participants.  I think this is the best one to date, and has lots of good info, including a picture I have never seen before: Quoted: www.hunt101.com/img/367038.jpg Would I be a "turd" if I pointed out a detail on this particular carbine that I bet the other "turds" missed?  As far as you other turds, take a close look at it, there is a important clue there on what Carbine it is. Well, I see a forward assist, the non-ribbed collapsible stock, skinny CAR handguards and A2 sights.  I see an optic that looks like it's taped on as well as too much tape on that buttstock.  It looks like he's got a long tampon taped to it as well... There's a fence around the mag release so along with all of the other info, it looks new-ish and not refurbished or a frankengun.

It is a frankengun, and you sir are no turd!

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Would I be a "turd" if I pointed out a detail on this particular carbine that I bet the other "turds" missed?  As far as you other turds, take a close look at it, there is a important clue there on what Carbine it is. Looks like it doesn't have a forward assist... A turd would know that there is a FA on there.  You would have to be a full blown all out serious turd that wastes many many hours on this type of subject in order to spot it. A1 lower?  Hard to tell with the resolution on that photo. Looks like a standard A2 type upper, CAR-style telestock, and carbine (non-M4) handguards.

With all due respect, you are a true turd.  Yes, that is a on old A1 lower forging.

Quoted: Anyway.  We had CAR-15's.  We didn't have that many though.  My squad leader was the only one that carried one in my squad.  Everyone else had full length muskets (16's) or other stuff.  I remember it pretty well, although I never got my d**k beaters on it.

Excellent information.  

The term CAR-15 was what was used for some 30 plus years to refer to a Carbine M16.  Now days shorties are called M4's.  In mnost cases I consider these terms slang lingo, but hey, I don't know what else to call the Ranger used Carbines pictured and descriped in this thread, but mixmaster comes to mind.

How do we know that's an A1 lower?  Is that what we were supposed to notice?  

Is being a turd good or bad?  I'm lost now...

From the 1997 series, Bowden responds to the question, who was killed first Gordon or Shughart?

"This is a fascinating question. In the official account, Randy Shughart was killed first and Gary Gordon came back around the helicopter, gave Durant a weapon, tried to radio for help, etc. A Delta soldier I interviewed who knew both Shughart and Gordon convinced me that it was the opposite. He heard Randy radio twice for help. Gordon and Shughart carried different customized weapons, and the one handed Durant's was almost certainly Gordon's, not Shughart's. Gordon would not have handed Durant his own weapon, so it was more likely Shughart who did the handing. Lastly, in his witness statement, Durant said he recognized Gordon because he had attended flight briefings. Actually, it was Shughart who had attended these briefings. I spoke with Durant on Friday, and while reluctant to see the official story altered, he said he could not be certain which man was which (very understandably under the circumstances). I believe Shughart did the things the official account attributes to Gordon. Both men, as Durant pointed out, acted with extraordinary selfless heroism. MB"

That question will probably never be answered with 100% certainty.

What really matters to me, quote “Both men, as Durant pointed out, acted with extraordinary selfless heroism.”

And so have many who came before that battle, many who fought that battle, and many who have been carrying on the fight since then! May we never forget the great sacrifices that have been made, and are still being made everyday, so that we can enjoy the lives and freedoms that we have.


I am not a “turd”, and I think the critical points have already been identified, so I will not respond on that one.


For the history buffs, below is a photo of the Delta Operators from Operation Just Cause, which would have been 3-4 years prior to the period in question.



I believe this kind of drives home the point that unless you talk to directly to some Delta Operators, to someone who worked directly with them, or to someone who built and maintained their weapons, then all bets are off on figuring out exactly what they carried. I know those ARs are not anywhere close to being “Standard Issue”.

Good Luck,
“Capt Richardson”

I love this stuff.  

 





______________________________  

 

Daaaaaaaaaaaa Bears

dick...

Quoted: I believe this kind of drives home the point that unless you talk to directly to some Delta Operators, to someone who worked directly with them, or to someone who built and maintained their weapons, then all bets are off on figuring out exactly what they carried. I know those ARs are not anywhere close to being “Standard Issue”.

Agreed, in that they are not Standard issue, there was no Standard issue Carbine during this time frame.

Considering that the Carbine in question are not standard issue, then it is going to take both individuals that were there, and individual familiar with such Carbines to be able to ID them.  My experience is that rare is the soldier/operator that is intimately familiar with the various contractors, variations, roll markings, etc of his weapons.  And such a Delta guy is not posting here.  So some creative speculation is going to happen.

For example, there was a recent post from someone who served in the 75th INF Reg. and he remembers that their Carbines (different then Delta's) had aluminum stocks.  We turds noticed that the lowers were A1 style.  Put those two details together with the fact the uppers are A2 and we now know were are talking about a custom item here, or mixmaster if you will.  Late upper, old lower.

In regards to Delta's Carbines, I have a decent picture of Delta operator holding a Carbine circa 1991.  Unfortunately it is not digital, it is a photocopy I took of Army Times (or some such thing) while at the armory (I did turd stuff like that while I was in).  Will take another look at it and see what I can see.

Quoted: Yup.  Port-a-johns were your best friend on long deployments.  If you got 'em, it was a bonus.  Your only private time.  Not that I would know anything about that at all.  hr

Yep, one of those things where everybody knew it happened but nobody said anything...funny now, sucked at the time...

Quoted: How do we know that's an A1 lower?  Is that what we were supposed to notice?

Yes, the front of the lower receiver is profiled against the black background, showing that the later reinforcment of the front pivot pin area is not there.  That detail, along with the information posted by the Ranger ID's the lower half as dating prior to the upper half.  Could be an old XM177E2 lower, perhaps a 1970's commerically purchased 653, etc?

Quoted: Is being a turd good or bad?  I'm lost now...

Well, you coined the term on page three, describing those "......who have spend God only knows how many hours of their life trying to find out each and every step in the EVOLUTION of the Ar15 into the M4..."

Did not take it as being meant as a term of endearment, but did take to it just the same.

Quoted: i26.photobucket.com/albums/c131/captrichardson/Delta.jpg

So while we're at the subject of Delta carbines, what type and brand are those sound suppressors seen in these pictures? They vaguely look like old OPSinc. models.

QUOTE: I believe this kind of drives home the point that unless you talk to directly to some Delta Operators, to someone who worked directly with them, or to someone who built and maintained their weapons, then all bets are off on figuring out exactly what they carried.

I had the pleasure of working with some Delta boys (I was not Delta myself) for a bit back in the late 80's and at that time I saw just about everything to include short barreled AR's (after reading all this I'm afraid of what to call them), H&K firearms and even some PDW's from a couple different manufacturers. I guess their weapon selection was (and still is) mission specific but I would think now some 10+ years later they have the most up to date toys but probably have stream-lined what's in their arms rooms as well......I wish I could have looked in their arms room. Again, most of what I saw was some configuration of a CAR-15/M16 but every one was just a bit different ...... "personalized". This would include different barrel lengths, attached accessories, butt stocks.....etc, etc.

remember that lots of times, due to the location and armament of locals in the AO they are goingto be in, they(Delta) arm themselves accordingly...if you're trying to blend in with the locals when they have AK's and grease guns you prolly dont  want to have a tricked out M4 with PEQ 2, Aimoint, can, blah blah blah...

Quoted: remember that lots of times, due to the location and armament of locals in the AO they are goingto be in, they(Delta) arm themselves accordingly...if you're trying to blend in with the locals when they have AK's and grease guns you prolly dont  want to have a tricked out M4 with PEQ 2, Aimoint, can, blah blah blah...

You got that right. Depending on the "flavor of the day", Spec-Ops and even civilian contractors need to dress, walk and "carry" as the natives do.

He also brought up the point when he disallowed several modifications to my issue M4/203 I wanted to do that "Units that do that sort of thing have to bring cases of non-standard spare parts with them to keep their customized weapons running. One, we don't have that luxury, secondly it's generally not worth the f*cking effort to bother."

Smart First Sergeant

There's a lesson in their for anyone smart enough to "get it"

Quoted: Oh yeah, that Carbine apears to be carried by a Ranger.  All the Carbine pictures I have from Somalia show the Rangers with A2 rear sights.  The Delta guys have field sights, or A1 sights if you will.  As pointed out, the optic on the Rangers Carbine is an Aimpoint 3000.  The Delta weapons have a different optic. Also have a picture of SEAL Team six 8, and the Carbine in the picture appears to have the "field sights", and I can't make out the optic, perhaps an "ACOG":

Fixed it for you.

Quoted: Quoted: Oh yeah, that Carbine apears to be carried by a Ranger.  All the Carbine pictures I have from Somalia show the Rangers with A2 rear sights.  The Delta guys have field sights, or A1 sights if you will.  As pointed out, the optic on the Rangers Carbine is an Aimpoint 3000.  The Delta weapons have a different optic. Also have a picture of SEAL Team six 8, and the Carbine in the picture appears to have the "field sights", and I can't make out the optic, perhaps an "ACOG": img.photobucket.com/albums/0603/Ekie12091941/SEALTeam6DEVGRU.jpg Fixed it for you.

No kidding, I saved that picture off a website as "SEALTeam6DEVGRU".  But I will not claim to know jack squat about SEALs.

JoshephR, you're a piece of....  Well a piece of something.  First you slam everyone one for paying attention to the details, then you join in when you got spanked.  You're a corker, a real corker you are.  You may do yourself some good and post less.  There is a reason you get dissed for all of your posts.  Because all you do is whine all the time.  I, in particular am tired of it.  Why don't you just chill out and quit being the know-it-all that you aren't.  It would bring much peace and understanding to the site.

No kidding, I saved that picture off a website as "SEALTeam6DEVGRU".  But I will not claim to know jack squat about SEALs.

There are a LOT of websites that have/give false information. Some sites have Airsoft Posers in pics and claim that they are truly CAG/DEVGRU.

Quoted: Daaaaaaaaaaaa Bears dick...

 

 
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Quoted: No kidding, I saved that picture off a website as "SEALTeam6DEVGRU".  But I will not claim to know jack squat about SEALs. There are a LOT of websites that have/give false information. Some sites have Airsoft Posers in pics and claim that they are truly CAG/DEVGRU.

Well in my defence, it came off that Black Hawk Down website were vets posted thier pictures.  Apparantly the guy that posted that one got the unit ID incorrect.  

I am a career Regular Army Special Forces Officer.  In 1984 at the US Army John F. Kennedy Special Warfare Center and School the carbines were marked "M16A1 Carbine", were select fire (auto), had 14.5-inch "Pencil" barrels and the "Original" vinyl-coated aluminum buttstock.  Very few had the Vietnam-era 11.5-inch short "Commando" barrel.

By 1987 in 1st Battalion, 1st Special Forces Group in Okinawa, Japan we had Colt M723 Carbines.  The receivers were marked "M16A2 Carbine", upper receivers were M16A1, were also semi and full, and had what is now known as the M4 barrel profile (for an M203).  The stocks were the newer plastic butts.  

In 1990 at Fort Lewis, Washington we still had standard M16A2 full-length rifle with burst selectors.  

The Marines finished XM4 R&D and standardization trials in 1993, and US Special Operations Command let the first contracts for I believe 5,500 M4A1 Carbines for delivery in 1994.  The US Army ordered standard M4s (burst fire and A2 uppers) for the 82nd Airborne Division and the 101st Airborne Division, and to replace the M3 Grease Gun in armor and mechanized units and for platoon leaders and radio operators.  

By September 1994 for the invasion of Haiti I got a brand-new M4A1.  I took it out of the vapor-barrier wrap paper in August 1994 and promptly mounted an M203 on it.  All previous Carbines I had seen before then had A1 or A2 carrying handles and were stamped "M16A2 Carbine", and were full select-fire.  I did not see any flat-tops until we got the M4A1s.

Short M16A2 "Commando" Carbines (11.5-inch barrels) with OPS INC suppressors had the M16A1 or M16A2 upper (still no flat-tops until we received the M4A1s).

By July 1995 all SF ODA Soldiers in Okinawa had M4A1 Carbines.

Sinister, so you are saying that the SF, Delta in Haiti used the M4A1 for the time of Blackhawk Down??

Quoted: I am a career Regular Army Special Forces Officer.  In 1984 at the US Army John F. Kennedy Special Warfare Center and School the carbines were marked "M16A1 Carbine", were select fire (auto), had 14.5-inch "Pencil" barrels and the "Original" vinyl-coated aluminum buttstock.  Very few had the Vietnam-era 11.5-inch short "Commando" barrel. By 1987 in 1st Battalion, 1st Special Forces Group in Okinawa, Japan we had Colt M723 Carbines.  The receivers were marked "M16A2 Carbine", upper receivers were M16A1, were also semi and full, and had what is now known as the M4 barrel profile (for an M203).  The stocks were the newer plastic butts.   In 1990 at Fort Lewis, Washington we still had standard M16A2 full-length rifle with burst selectors.   The Marines finished XM4 R&D and standardization trials in 1993, and US Special Operations Command let the first contracts for I believe 5,500 M4A1 Carbines for delivery in 1994.  The US Army ordered standard M4s (burst fire and A2 uppers) for the 82nd Airborne Division and the 101st Airborne Division, and to replace the M3 Grease Gun in armor and mechanized units and for platoon leaders and radio operators.   By September 1994 for the invasion of Haiti I got a brand-new M4A1.  I took it out of the vapor-barrier wrap paper in August 1994 and promptly mounted an M203 on it.  All previous Carbines I had seen before then had A1 or A2 carrying handles and were stamped "M16A2 Carbine", and were full select-fire.  I did not see any flat-tops until we got the M4A1s. Short M16A2 "Commando" Carbines (11.5-inch barrels) with OPS INC suppressors had the M16A1 or M16A2 upper (still no flat-tops until we received the M4A1s). By July 1995 all SF ODA Soldiers in Okinawa had M4A1 Carbines.

Freaking fantastic post, excellent info.  Am saving this thread.